1. #76
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    Originally posted by SPFDRum


    .....that have served and died by giving up and pulling out. That policy didn't work in Vietnam, what makes people think it will work now?

    Great Post!....Look were Post-Somolia Got us!.....The attacks against America tripled since 1979....Yeah...pull out...and show we have NO SPINE!...SCFIRE refuses to admit that it was only a matter of time before we went in with force against Iraq. Like I have said before....he has no knowledge of Operation North Watch and Southern Watch...OH!....I forgot....Operation Desert Fox....we were HOURS away from attacking Iraq and removing Saddam..under CLINTON....HOURS!!!!!! only HOURS!!!...much of I MEF was already landed in Isreal and Kuwait!....My unit and I were positioned 5 miles from the Iraqi border...only 5 MILES!..............Again...like someone said before....another spanking...
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    This is funny...but pretty much sums up how I think...well sort of...I can get way more specific.......and SCFIRE take head to all but escpecially to #10 and #13.


    Dear Civilians,

    We know that the current state of affairs in our great
    nation have many civilians up in arms and excited to join the military. For those of you who can't join, you can still lend a hand. Here are a few of the areas we would like your assistance with:

    1) The next time you see an adult talking during the playing of the National anthem.....kick their ***.


    2) When you witness firsthand someone burning the
    American Flag in protest...kick their ***.

    3) Regardless of the rank they held while they served,
    pay the highest amount of respect to all veterans. If you see anyone doing otherwise, quietly pull them aside and explain how these Veterans fought for the very freedom they bask in every second. Enlighten them on the many sacrifices these Veterans made to make this Nation great. Then hold them down while the Veteran kicks their ***.

    4) If you are not in the military, DO NOT pretend that you are. Wearing battle dress uniforms (BDU's), telling others that you used to be "Special Forces," and collecting GI Joe memorabilia might have been okay if you were still seven, but now it will only get your *** kicked. (Veterans are exempt
    from this rule)

    5) If you witness someone calling an enlisted Marine "Sir," stand back.....a Marine will kick their ***.

    6) Next time you come across an Air Force member, do not ask them "Do you fly a jet?" Not everyone in the Air Force is a pilot. Such ignorance deserves an *** kicking (children are exempt).

    7) Roseanne Barr's singing of the National Anthem is not a blooper....it was a disgrace and disrespectful. Laugh, and sooner or later your *** will be kicked.

    8) Next time Old Glory prances by during a parade, get on your damn feet and pay homage to her by placing your hand over your heart and quietly thank the military member or veteran lucky enough to be carrying her......of course, failure to do either of those will earn you a severe *** kicking.

    9) What Jane Fonda did during the Vietnam War makes her the enemy. The proper word to describe her is "traitor." . . . Hate her or else (asses will be kicked).

    10) Don't try to discuss politics with a military member or a veteran. We are Americans and we all bleed the same regardless of our party affiliation. Our Chain of Command, to include our Commander in Chief...the President... (for those who didn't know) is all that we acknowledge. We have no inside track on what happens inside those big important buildings where all those "representatives" meet. All we know is that when those civilian representatives screw up the
    situation, they call upon the military to go straighten it out. The military member might direct you to Oliver North. (I can see him kicking your *** already.)

    11) "Your mama wears combat boots" never made sense to me....stop saying it! If she did, she would most likely kick your ***!

    12) Bin Laden and the Taliban are not communists, so stop saying "Let's go kill those Commie's!!!" And stop asking us where he is!!!! Crystal balls are not standard issue in the military. That reminds me ... if you see anyone calling those damn psychic phone numbers; let me know, so I can go kick their ***.

    13) Last but not least, whether or not you become a member of the military, support our troops and their families. Every Thanksgiving and Christmas that you enjoy with family and friends please remember that there are, literally, thousands of troops overseas wishing they could be with their families. Thank God for our military and the sacrifices they make
    every day. Without them, our country would get it's *** kicked !!!
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-05-2004 at 01:49 AM.
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    Originally posted by VinnieB



    Great Post!....Look were Post-Somolia Got us!.....The attacks against America tripled since 1979....Yeah...pull out...and show we have NO SPINE!...SCFIRE refuses to admit that it was only a matter of time before we went in with force against Iraq. Like I have said before....he has no knowledge of Operation North Watch and Southern Watch...OH!....I forgot....Operation Desert Fox....we were HOURS away from attacking Iraq and removing Saddam..under CLINTON....HOURS!!!!!! only HOURS!!!...much of I MEF was already landed in Isreal and Kuwait!....My unit and I were positioned 5 miles from the Iraqi border...only 5 MILES!..............Again...like someone said before....another spanking...
    What was the reason to invade? Because they say bad things about us? Great.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Originally posted by VinnieB
    This is funny...but pretty much sums up how I think...well sort of...I can get way more specific.......and SCFIRE take head to all but escpecially to #10 and #13.

    YAWN!!!

    And FYI. I'm a veteran also.
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    YAWN!!!

    And FYI. I'm a veteran also.
    Congrats..of what?...AND since you feel it neccesary to attack a National Guardsman...I ask you were did you serve? And with who?
    This is only fair since it does not matter to you about people remaining in the rear. Were you a grunt?..oh! and it does make a BIG differance....a really BIIIIIIG difference.
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    What was the reason to invade? Because they say bad things about us? Great.

    If you think blowing up a barracks, a Destroyer, 2 embassies, the seat of goverment, our fininacial spine, and numerous other "smaller" attacks that never made prime time...."saying bad things"..well then I guess you AGAIN....fail to read history....are you that numb to what has happened since 93?...let alone '79?
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    And to "learn" you SCFIRE, in case you forgot:

    "On December 16, 1998, United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) military forces launched cruise missile attacks against military targets in Iraq. These strikes were ordered by the President of the United States and were undertaken in response to Iraq's continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) inspectors. The strikes were designed to deliver a serous blow to Saddam Hussein's capability to manufacture, store, maintain and deliver weapons of mass destruction and his ability to threaten or otherwise intimidate his neighbors."

    In November 1998, US President William J. Clinton warned Iraqi leadership that force would be used if they continued to hamper United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) inspectors efforts. This operation, dubbed Desert Fox, was a rapid and intense use of air power that lasted four days (17-20 December 1998), ending on the first day of Ramadan, the ninth month of the Muslim year during which Muslim believers must fast between dawn and dusk. It was also the first operation that used B-1B Lancer bomber aircraft in a combat role. As in earlier confrontations between coalition forces and Iraqi military forces in the Persian Gulf, the intent was to show the coalition's resolve to continue to support the UN's monitoring effort. This was basically the "straw that broke the camel's back" in the year-long tug of war between Hussein and the coalition. In fact, the US deployed forces to the Persian Gulf in February 1998 as part of operation Desert Thunder. Like confrontations in the past, Hussein selected a time when the US and her European allies were busy with preparing for another situation, again in the former republic of Yugoslavia.



    Hmmmm....were yo opposed to this?...I highly doubt it.
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    No WMDs eh?....Clinton felt there were...check this out:

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...a2-slide04.htm



    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...a2-slide08.htm



    Looks to me as if even the DEMS belived they existed.....
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    I guess this must be a lie too....BUT LOOK!...is from Bubba!



    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...1219-end01.htm



    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...21916_tlt.html



    Here's more.."lies", "lies", "lies"!!!!!..Oh!..but wait its from CLinton....it must be true...

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...21916_tlt.html

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...ox_videos.html



    Now..I despised Clinton..BUT I supposrted what he did in Iraq...BUT we ALL wished it went further (up to this point today)...we felt it was our opportunity to do what we couldn't do in '91.....the UN had failed...or we were ALL lead to believe so...even then...and even the Bubba Administration...or there would not have been an Operation Desert Thunder or Fox. We both can dissagree to were blue in the face...BUT you have to agree that the UN is as defunt as the Leauge of Nations...name something the UN has succeded at?....Everything I think of come up as a debacle....Bosina, Kosovo, Gulf I, Somolia, Rawanda....Oil for Food,,,, the Human Right Council...which had African Nations as members who at the time were commiting geocide....the point I am trying to get at is....the UN is a waste of time and effort......they are pretty much as usless as t*ts on a boar....history shows this.....and we have been getting slapped around since 1979...more so since 1993....the time has come for us to start slapping around our enemies and potential enemies. And YES...you have alreasy pointed out my "violent" nature...I am sorry...I grew up in NY....and if you don't fight for yourself...nobody will...my thought process is...if someone punches you in the nose and you don't fight back....then you deserve to get punched again, and again, and again...it shows that you are weak and unwilling to protect yourself....and you will allow anyone to dominate you....and "that dog just ain't gunna' hunt"
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-05-2004 at 02:38 AM.
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    Originally posted by VinnieB



    If you think blowing up a barracks, a Destroyer, 2 embassies, the seat of goverment, our fininacial spine, and numerous other "smaller" attacks that never made prime time...."saying bad things"..well then I guess you AGAIN....fail to read history....are you that numb to what has happened since 93?...let alone '79?
    And how did any of those acts by Al Qaeda justify invading Iraq?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Originally posted by VinnieB


    Hmmmm....were yo opposed to this?...I highly doubt it.
    He must have done something right. Where are the WMD's?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Originally posted by VinnieB


    Were you a grunt?..oh! and it does make a BIG differance....a really BIIIIIIG difference.
    Only to you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Not necessarily only to him.

    Many of those who served in the military know there is a difference bewtween a REMF and someone who has trained for and deployed to be on the receiving end of fire.

    By the grace of God I was not a REMF but also was not on the receiving end of an AK or any other weapon. Just the way timing all works out.

    It may be of no relevance, but many espouse to know everything about a combat zone and never served under fire. For every soldier or Marine that is in the heat humping, it takes like 8 other guys to support that 1 man. What are the odds of it.
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    And for what? As pointed out during the debates. We weren't attacked by Iraq. Even Rumsfeld now admits there was never any evidence of a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

    I won't pretend to speak for the pundits. But just because they were wrong on casualties doesn't make those who have made the supreme sacrifice any less dead.
    No one of any knowledge has denied that there was a connection between Saddam and elements of al Qaeda, no one ever said that there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11 except those opposed to the war trying to say those in favore of it were saying that. 9/11 did show us what we had to prevent though, and that was what it was about. Saddam had to go, if not two years ago then soon afterwerds, he had been a menace to the world for too long. Those that have dies have done so in order to give the people of Iraq freedom, to give the Shiites the chance to live without fear of tyranny. If we pull out and leave a mess like Kerry seems to be willing and ready to do, then yes those lives might be a waste, but if we continue the fight and finish the job, those sacrifices will have been for something great.

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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    And as I have said before, you will now have to deplete current forces to train several thousand new Rangers, Green Berets, SEALs, Forec Recon Marines (the USMC having just recently begun its foray into the world of special operations),
    Hey the entire Corps has ALWAYS been elte special operators, we are just now letting the rest of them play with us.

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    Originally posted by VinnieB


    Were you a grunt?..oh! and it does make a BIG differance....a really BIIIIIIG difference.
    Got to disagree there Devil Dog, since Vietnam EVERYONE in the combat zone is on the frontlines to one degree or another. Look at the clerk and supply guys that got shot up and shot back from the bus in Dahran in January 1991, look at the maintainance platoon that Jessica what here name was in last year. Grunts in a way have the easy way, all they do is search for the enemy and stay preped to repel the enemy attacks, the support guys have to concentrait on their job while still being ready to repel the attacks. Every Marine is a Rifleman!

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    No one of any knowledge has denied that there was a connection between Saddam and elements of al Qaeda, no one ever said that there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11 except those opposed to the war trying to say those in favore of it were saying that.
    Even the 9/11 Commission originally opposed by the President (which he later flip flopped and supported) could find any connection between the two.

    But if you have some special intel, I'd bet Bush would love to see it before Friday.

    Hussein and Bin Laden are/were mortal enemies. That much is known. And it is why Hussein kept Al Qaeda out of Iraq.
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Even the 9/11 Commission originally opposed by the President (which he later flip flopped and supported) could find any connection between the two.

    But if you have some special intel, I'd bet Bush would love to see it before Friday.

    Hussein and Bin Laden are/were mortal enemies. That much is known. And it is why Hussein kept Al Qaeda out of Iraq.
    Giveing in to the opposition is not flip floping it is consensus building and being a pragmatic. Now if he went back and opposed it again, then after a while decided again that it was a good idea, that would be flip floping. The war is a good idea, no it is bad, it was needed, it is a waste, it has freed a people, it should not have been fought, that is flip floping.

    The 9/11 commision found connections to al Quida and Iraq, they found no connection to Iraq and 9/11. Was uit as strong as Rumsfield would like folks to believe? No, but it was not non-existant the way Kerry would like us to believe either.

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Got to disagree there Devil Dog, since Vietnam EVERYONE in the combat zone is on the frontlines to one degree or another!

    Well...he got me on that one becasue he didn't answer my first part of that question....What I was going to elude to was that, YES anyone foward is in danger...and essentially everyones a "grunt"...in the respects you state....What I was getting at is...if one is on a ship or a rear area base....in the AOR...doesn't neccesaraly make them privy to understanding what its like "on the ground". But not at thier fault...that's what they volunteered for. I do remember him posting he was in the Navy....I could be wrong...that may have been his cohort in crime....but to say even a sailor or airman on a ship or rear base has the same degree of combat exposure as a grunt or truck mech foward deployed......is, in my mind incorrect...but that is only me. Heck...he may have been a Corpsman...but if so..I don't understand why he thinks the way he does...For me...my experiance was...not those slobber knocker firefights that are happening in Iraq...but limited ones in Afganistan mostly H&I from the enemy, and in Kosovo....very wildly inaccurate sniper fire and the occational landmine. And I have lived like an animal...which is very different to living with runnign water, soft beds, and warm solid food.

    And yes..ok...I may be verging on "personal" attacks here...but to bad, I don't really care..If someone wants to dish it...they better be prepared to take it......I have been subject to it already...and apparentley it's ok to walk down that path.
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    He must have done something right. Where are the WMD's?
    Again you fail to understand history...so here is lesson 4.....Even the commission stated Iraq's WMD program was defunct after Gulf I which was in 91.....Bubba was elected in '92. But because of Saddam's balking and games...most everyone thought his WMD program was intact....especially when he put so much effort in rebuilding his facilities that were attacked.......
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Giveing in to the opposition is not flip floping it is consensus building and being a pragmatic.

    Given the amount of positions where he's changed his mind, Bush is one of the most pragmatic POTUS's we've had.


    The 9/11 commision found connections to al Quida and Iraq, they found no connection to Iraq and 9/11. Was uit as strong as Rumsfield would like folks to believe? No, but it was not non-existant the way Kerry would like us to believe either.

    Point me to them in the 9/11 report. This is the first I've heard of it.
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    >>The 9/11 commision found connections to al Quida and Iraq, they
    >>found no connection to Iraq and 9/11. Was uit as strong as
    >>Rumsfield would like folks to believe? No, but it was not non-
    >>existant the way Kerry would like us to believe either.

    >Point me to them in the 9/11 report. This is the first I've heard
    >of it

    Page 128. http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...1/pdf/sec4.pdf

    Though intelligence gave no clear indication of what might be afoot, some intelligence reports mentioned chemical weapons, pointing toward work at a camp in southern Afghanistan called Derunta.On November 4,1998,the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment
    of Bin Ladin,charging him with conspiracy to attack U.S.defense installations.
    The indictment also charged that al Qaeda had allied itself with Sudan, Iran, and Hezbollah.The original sealed indictment had added that al Qaeda had “reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects,specifically
    including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”109 This passage led Clarke, who for years had read intelligence reports on Iraqi-Sudanese cooperation on chemical weapons, to speculate to Berger that a large Iraqi presence at chemical facilities in Khartoum
    was “probably a direct result of the Iraq–Al Qida agreement.” Clarke added that VX precursor traces found near al Shifa were the “exact formula used by Iraq.”
    110This language about al Qaeda’s “understanding”with Iraq had been dropped, however, when a superseding indictment was filed in November
    1998.111


    Page 134:
    In February 1999,Allen proposed flying a U-2 mission over Afghanistan to build a baseline of intelligence outside the areas where the tribals had coverage.
    Clarke was nervous about such a mission because he continued to fear that Bin Ladin might leave for someplace less accessible.He wrote Deputy National Security Advisor Donald Kerrick that one reliable source reported Bin Ladin’s having met with Iraqi officials, who “may have offered him asylum.” Other intelligence sources said that some Taliban leaders, though not Mullah Omar, had urged Bin Ladin to go to Iraq. If Bin Ladin actually moved to Iraq, wrote Clarke,his network would be at Saddam Hussein’s service,and it would be “virtually
    impossible” to find him. Better to get Bin Ladin in Afghanistan, Clarke declared


    While I don't think there where intimate ties between al Qaeda and Iraq, I'd say the above quotes indicated a belief going back well before Bush that there was contact between Iraq and al Qaeda.
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    Hey Dalmation...didn't Saddam give $25,000 to each of the 19 terrorists families after 9/11 as a reward?...I do re call this happening....ALSO didn't Saddam offer a "safe haven" for the murderors of the Achili Laurel? And something of truth that I remember...Saddam was funding terrosists from 91-03 and suppling them with SA-7s. He offered a bounty on US Transport and Air Lift assests in the region. A few enmpty tubes were found on roof tops in Incirlick, Turkey after pilots reported launches. This is why "Maddog" had the aircraft taking off into the sun every morning....the SA-7 can not differentiate between the Heat Source of the Sun and an Aircraft engine.....And I know that this doesn't neccesasarly mean he was "in-bed" with these nutz...but for someone to say there was NO connection is obsurd wouldn't you say?
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-05-2004 at 04:24 PM.
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    Hey the entire Corps has ALWAYS been elite special operators, we are just now letting the rest of them play with us.
    I know this. That is why Kerry is not talking about adding a few regiments to the Corps. Most squids aren't exactly fond of having the Marines under the Department of the Navy (since we are the Men's department ).

    However, there was an article in Leatherneck a couple of months ago about the first group of hand picked recon Marines getting spun up to be formed into the US Special Operations Command. The SEALs have been getting too much glory doing it wring so we have to do it right. Just kidding everyone, don't get your panties in a bunch.

    As for every Marine a rifleman, quite true, but even after Jessica Lynch, the Army has opted not to enhance the REMF training to make them more tactical, whereas for the past 80 or more years, Marines have trained as such. In battles all across the Pacific, to Korea, Viet Nam, Afhanistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and everywhere else we have served, cooks, mechanics, MPs, and a whole assortment of MOSs have packed up, and fought. One might think it would be a good example to have, but apparently some do not learn. Even the Air Force has begun tactical training for recruits.


    Remember, it was not our responsibility to find WMD (as much as we did make every effort as well as the UNs efforts) it was Husseins responsibility to prove that he did not have them. He made every move to indicate that he retained the capability.

    I have also read a few articles in the past month or so regarding Syrian officers in Sudan and evidence of WMD injuries on the slaughtered Christians, where Syria had no WMD capabilities prior to Iraq's invasion - though they apparently expressed the desire to acquire them - and Sudan was in the same predicament. Numerous intelligence estimates questioned whether the WMD, or information and parts were moved to Syria just prior to the war, especially since most of the higher up tinkerers in the WMD program of Iraq were relocated to, or fled to, Syria. Iran has made gestures to Syria to allow some to relocate there in order to aid in their own development.

    Perhaps that carpet bombing scenario brought up a while ago wasn't far off target.
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    Default It's a war on terror...

    scfire86,
    Saying that since there is no direct evidence of a connection between Sadam Insane and Al-Queda and therefore we shouldn't have invaded Iraq, just illustrates ones' lack of understanding of this war. There are many different terror organizations and terrorist leaders. There are many other states that support, harbor and give aid and comfort to terrorists. Sadam Insane and his government were one of them.

    The President shortly after September 11th, 2001 said we are now at war with terrorists, and those who support them, not just Al-Queda, and OBL.

    There were and are ties to Sadams government and terror organizations.

    April 7, 2003, 12:00 p.m.
    At Salman Pak
    Iraq’s terror ties.

    Confirming that Operation Iraqi Freedom is an integral part of the war on terror, soldiers of the 7th Marine Regiment destroyed a suspected terrorist camp early Sunday en route to Baghdad. Located a mile east of the Tigris River, the Salman Pak base was exactly where U.S. terrorism experts and Iraqi defectors said it would be.

    Ex-CIA Director James Woolsey, Clinton Iraqi policy adviser Laurie Mylroie, former Iraqi nuclear chief Khidir Hamza and émigré Iraqi army colonel Sabah Khodada are among those who say that Saddam Hussein used Salman Pak to instruct terrorists in bomb making, assassination, and hijacking (see "The 9/11 Connection"). Key to this objective was an airplane fuselage in which Islamic extremists honed their air-piracy skills. Initial reports from the camp vindicate those suspicions.

    "The rusted shell of an old passenger jet sat out in a field, its tail broken off," an Associated Press dispatch reported Sunday. "Good for hijacking practice, U.S. Marines speculated Sunday as they examined an Iraqi training base about 30 kilometers (20 miles) south of Baghdad."

    Nessman added: "The passenger plane's sun-bleached fuselage lay alone in a large, barren field. A fire engine sat at one intersection. Elsewhere, the twisted metal wreck of a double-decker bus stood near three decrepit green and red train cars." These latter details bolster charges that Salman Pak also showed terrorists how to seize buses and trains.

    The Marines shelled then entered Salman Pak — named after a 7th Century Persian convert to Islam who was the prophet Mohammed's barber — after it was discussed by Egyptian and Sudanese fighters caught elsewhere in Iraq.

    As the U.S. Army's stoic and crisp Brigadier General Vincent Brooks told reporters Sunday, "The nature of the work being done by some of those people that we captured, their inferences to the type of training that they received, all of these things give us the impression that there was terrorist training that was conducted at Salman Pak."

    American GIs also searched the facility's buildings.

    "We're trying to find anything of intel value, to see how they train and possibly their terrorist tactics," Gunnery Sergeant Scott Stalker — the 7th Marines' 28-year-old intelligence chief from Baypoint, California — told the AP.

    As soldiers press on to victory, analysts now will sift through Salman Pak and its papers to find dots to connect to terrorist activities and groups, possibly including al Qaeda. A key question for them is whether the September 11 conspirators practiced their hijacking chops at this base.

    "We'll pull documents out of it and see what the documents say, if there's any links or indications," General Brooks said. "We'll look and see if there's any persons that are recovered that may not be Iraqi. All of that is detailed and deliberate work that happens after the fact."



    We also shouldn't forget that Sadam Insane and his government invaded a soveign nation, laid waste to it, raped, pillaged and plundered it and its citizens, then when told to get out and didn't by the international community, got it's ***** kicked. Please don't forget what they did to the oil wells in Kuwait.

    Iraq and Sadam SURRENDERED to the coalition at the time, and agreed to comply with the terms of that surrender. Which included a no fly zone that they violated and which when we began to try and enforce it, they shot missles at our planes. And where did they get the technology and materials to do such things?

    Don't ask me why we aren't invading some other countries who are also listed as the axis of evil and supporters of terror organizations. None have demonstrated such blatant disregard of US and International sanctions as Iraq and Sadam Insane.

    Those countries who are committing atrocities on their own citizens have also provided serious instability in their regions. If you believe as many do, that we have a moral obligation to intervene then we should also accept that we had a moral obligation in Iraq as well. Questioning why we aren't in those countries is irrelevent.

    Opps I almost forgot

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