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  1. #21
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    There was no hurry to do this. And we are now seeing the hasty rush to war
    12 years worth of ignored UN sanctions. 12 years worth of not complying with demands. Close to half of those 12 years with inspectors not being allowed to inspect all areas openly. A couple years where inspectors were not allowed in the country at all. 12 years worth of things not working.
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  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber mohican's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    All the WMD's we haven't and won't find.
    We've already found warheads full of Sarin gas

    I guess the ability to kill about 200,000 in one stroke is "massive" enough.

  3. #23
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    While reading my morning news bfore class I actually found an article supporting my statement about how many of Kerry's supporters just don't like Bush.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228631
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  4. #24
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pfd3501

    We've already found warheads full of Sarin gas

    I guess the ability to kill about 200,000 in one stroke is "massive" enough.
    When? Even Bush now states it is unlikely WMD's will be found. Whatever info you have you should send to the campaign immediately.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #25
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie


    I am also still waiting for you to address teh issue raised a few times that it was Iraq's obligation to prove to the world that it did not have the weapons. Every action showed otherwise and numerous worldwide intelligence estimates indicated otherwise. So even Mr. Kerry would have taken action based on the information that he had available at the time.

    But Iraq did submit documentation to the UN stating their weapon's program was pretty much defunct. There were discs of documentation turned over in Dec '02 and it was immediately blown off by both Bush and his blathering supporters.

    And if Saddam was playing a shell game, it is now apparent they were empty shells. Unless like I stated earlier, you know something Bush doesn't since he now claims it is unlikely WMD's will be found.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #26
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    While reading my morning news bfore class I actually found an article supporting my statement about how many of Kerry's supporters just don't like Bush.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228631
    What's your point? Was the 1st Ammendment repealed? As a voter you have the right to choose regardless of motivation.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #27
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    When? Even Bush now states it is unlikely WMD's will be found. Whatever info you have you should send to the campaign immediately.
    Do a search on this. You'll be disappointed. About 4-6 months ago there was a rocket attack on a US convoy and compound....insurgents fired a few 122mm rockets that were armed with chem warheads...sarin...I believe the counter battery trianulaed the firing point and a reaction team went out and found 6 more 122mm, either rockets or arty rounds (they come in both types), this was on the news but was blurb out....

    Now if you do not believe me....(which you most likley won't )....there is a civilian company called Patell...based in Virginia...that was contracted to go ove to Iraq and service ALL the individual MOPP gear because of this. They have been there for sometime now...doing just that..getting all the MOPP gear up to speed.

    OH...and please... I am interested in how the French in Algeria is compariable to the US in Iraq? I hope you do your homework and not just use some line that has been used on CNN and MSNBC...
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-12-2004 at 12:29 PM.
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  8. #28
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by VinnieB


    Do a search on this. You'll be disappointed. About 4-6 months ago there was a rocket attack on a US convoy and compound....insurgents fired a few 122mm rockets that were armed with chem warheads...sarin...I believe the counter battery trianulaed the firing point and a reaction team went out and found 6 more 122mm, either rockets or arty rounds (they come in both types), this was on the news but was blurb out....

    I'm sure you can point me to the story.


    OH...and please... I am interested in how the French in Algeria is compariable to the US in Iraq? I hope you do your homework and not just use some line that has been used on CNN and MSNBC...

    Are rolled eyes something you're taught in the Corp? You sure do it a lot. Algeria was a French colony. Here's a synopsis of the Algerian War of Independence 1954-1962. I'm sure you will be able to see some of the parallels to our current involvement in Iraq. And if you can't. Well, that's okay too.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #29
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Vinnie is accurate with his information regarding the shells containing sarin gas being used. It is an event that took place several months ago, and they were not used in the way in which they were intended to be used, the reason given for why the gas was not disbursed properly.
    From what I remember about the reporting, sarin gas is not fired as sarin gas, it is several substances that mix in a shell in flight to become sarin gas upon becoming energetic, to add additional safety to the forces using the gas as a weapon. I may not remember every aspect, I was not nor have I ever been EOD. This lends credence to the evidence of the chemical manufactoring trailors found throughout Iraq. The origin of these shells however, were attributed to the Gulf war of 1991, and were 'banned' weapons systems, just one of many that Saddam held in direct violation of UN sanctions. They were old, but never the less very lethal if used correctly. In this case they were used as an IED if my memory serve's me. That is what presented the problem with accurately dispursing the agent, it wasn't lethal but it was accredited with sickening a number of our service men.


    I personally find it unnecesary to point you to the story, your obvious hatred of this Administration and refusal to believe anything presented by any supporters leads me to not wish to put forth the effort. If you choose to look the other way while butchers and sadistic animals murder innocents', that is your choice. I personaly sleep well at night knowing that members of my family are right now keeping us safe. ALL OF US. Even when some of us pretend to support them, of which I feel John Kerry is one of.
    Last edited by jasper45; 10-12-2004 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Monica votes republican?


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  12. #32
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    What's your point? Was the 1st Ammendment repealed? As a voter you have the right to choose regardless of motivation.
    Thank you for the civics lesson. I did not know that I could make a choice for whatever reason I thought.

    The point of the post is to offer support for a post that I made stating that many people voting for Kerry just don't like Bush. you called that into question (as I recall) and I just wished to substantiate my position a bit.

    Iraq was not only required to show documentation but to allow unrestricted and unfettered access to facilities to prove that this was true. He did not. He played the same shell game, regardless of the use of "empty shells." We made a decision as a nation based upon his failure to do so and intelligence estimates from numerous nations and our own. This was the agreement made under the cease fire in 1991. For those not following the history - 13 years ago.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  13. #33
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jasper45

    I personally find it unnecesary to point you to the story, your obvious hatred of this Administration and refusal to believe anything presented by any supporters leads me to not wish to put forth the effort. If you choose to look the other way while butchers and sadistic animals murder innocents', that is your choice. I personaly sleep well at night knowing that members of my family are right now keeping us safe. ALL OF US. Even when some of us pretend to support them, of which I feel John Kerry is one of.
    I couldn't have said it better myself....It's obvious he doesn't read anything of truth anyway...OH! and before I forget.....I need a few of these:


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  14. #34
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    UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- Equipment and materials that could be used to make nuclear weapons have disappeared from Iraq, the chief of the U.N.'s atomic watchdog agency has warned.
    Satellite imagery shows entire buildings that once housed high-precision equipment that could be used to make nuclear bombs have been dismantled, the International Atomic Energy Agency said in a letter to the Security Council.

    In the letter, IAEA head Mohamed ElBaradei said that though some radioactive equipment taken from Iraq after the war began has shown up in other countries, none of the high-quality, dual-use equipment or materials that is missing has been found.

    The U.S. government prevented U.N. weapons inspectors from returning to Iraq -- thereby blocking the IAEA from monitoring the high-tech equipment and materials -- after the U.S.-led war was launched in March 2003.

    The Bush administration then deployed U.S. teams in what turned out to be an unsuccessful search for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

    The IAEA said in its letter that U.S. and Iraqi officials have not reported dismantling any sites relevant to Iraq's nuclear program.

    Anti-proliferation agreements say that the United States, which administered Iraq until June 2004, and the Iraqi interim government, which took over from the United States in June, must inform the IAEA of any import or export of such materials and equipment.

    But since March 2003 "the agency has received no such notifications or declarations from any state," ElBaradei said.

    The nuclear agency has since then had to rely on satellite imagery to work out what is happening with Iraq's nuclear sites.

    "The imagery shows in many instances the dismantlement of entire buildings that housed high precision equipment ... formerly monitored and tagged with IAEA seals, as well as the removal of equipment and materials (such as high-strength aluminum) from open storage areas," he said.

    In his letter, ElBaradei added that "as the disappearance of such equipment and materials may be of proliferation significance, any state that has information about the location of such items should provide IAEA with that information."

    A spokesman for the U.S. Mission in New York said he had not seen the letter.

    In a report to the Security Council in early September, a U.N. commission charged with overseeing the elimination of any banned Iraqi missile, chemical and biological weapons programs, also expressed concern about the disappearance of tagged equipment.

    Demetri Perricos, head of the commission, known as UNMOVIC, said Iraqi authorities for over a year have been shipping thousands of tons of scrap metal, including at least 42 engines from banned missiles and other equipment that could be used to produce banned weapons.

    In the first presidential debate of the 2004 campaign, President George W. Bush and Sen. John Kerry agreed that nuclear proliferation is the single most serious threat facing the United States.

    George W. Bush has justified the war in Iraq in part by saying that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was on the brink of developing a nuclear bomb that he might use against the United States or give to terrorists.

    But a CIA report released last week by chief U.S. weapons inspector Charles Duelfer concluded that Hussein terminated his nuclear program after the first Gulf War in 1991

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    www.NewsMax.com

    Now that everybody in the world knows that Saddam had no WMD, maybe this can stop being a political issue and we can actually look at the WMD that Saddam really had. From NewsMax:
    Is it really true that Saddam Hussein had no "stockpiles" of weapons of mass destruction before the U.S. invaded in March 2003?
    Not exactly - at least not if one counts the 500 tons of uranium that the Iraqi dictator kept stored at his al Tuwaitha nuclear weapons development plant.

    The press hasn't made much of Saddam's 500-ton uranium stockpile, downplaying the story to such an extent that most Americans aren't even aware of it.

    But it's been reported - albeit in a by-the-way fashion - by the New York Times and a handful of other media outlets. And one of Saddam's nuclear scientists, Jaffar Dhia Jaffar, admitted to the BBC earlier this year, "We had 500 tons of yellow cake [uranium] in Baghdad."

    Surely 500 tons of anything qualifies as a "stockpile." And press reports going back more than a decade give no indication that weapons inspectors had any idea the Iraqi dictator had amassed such a staggering amount of nuke fuel until the U.S. invaded.

    That's when the International Atomic Energy Agency was finally able to take a full inventory, and suddenly the 500-ton figure emerged.

    Still, experts say Saddam's massive uranium stockpile was largely benign.

    Largely? Well, except for the 1.8 tons of uranium that Saddam had begun to enrich. The U.S. Energy Department considered that stockpile so dangerous that it mounted an unprecedented airlift operation four months ago to remove the enriched uranium stash from al Tuwaitha.

    But didn't most of that enrichment take place before the first Gulf War - with no indication whatsoever that Saddam was capable of proceeding any further toward his dream of acquiring the bomb?

    That seems to be the consensus. But there's also disturbing evidence to the contrary.

    David Kay, the former chief U.S. weapons inspector who was hailed by the press last year for pronouncing Iraq WMD-free, shared some interesting observations with Congress this past January about goings-on at al Tuwaitha in 2000 and 2001.

    "[The Iraqis] started building new buildings, renovating it, hiring some new staff and bringing them together," Kay said. "And they ran a few physics experiments, re-ran experiments they'd actually run in the '80s."

    "Fortunately, from my point of view," he added, "Operation Iraqi Freedom intervened and we don't know how or how fast that would have gone ahead. ... Given their history, it was certainly an emerging program that I would not have looked forward to their continuing to pursue."

  16. #36
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Farley,

    Here is a link I put in another thread earlier about Iraq denying the UNs claim.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228800/


    Lots of poor reporting coming out of Iraq in the past few weeks with poorly researched stories having to be retracted or being confronted and rebutted.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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    DaSharkie
    If one wanted to, they could find stories about water test of the Euphrates during the initial days that we occupied Bagdad. Test showed that many toxins, etc were dumped days prior to the arrival of our troops.

    I'll go back to PFDs original assertion

    the Dems can't defend Kerry, or get behind his record. They can only accuse Bush of what they feel are wrongdoings, real or imagined. Mostly imagined.

  18. #38
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I hope you don't think I was being critical of you Farley, just wanted to counter an article with another that I read today.

    Kerry has no record of prominence, that is why he isn't exactly touting his record when he's out there with the people.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  19. #39
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jasper45

    I personally find it unnecesary to point you to the story, your obvious hatred of this Administration and refusal to believe anything presented by any supporters leads me to not wish to put forth the effort. If you choose to look the other way while butchers and sadistic animals murder innocents', that is your choice. I personaly sleep well at night knowing that members of my family are right now keeping us safe. ALL OF US. Even when some of us pretend to support them, of which I feel John Kerry is one of.
    You find it personally unnecessary because it isn't true.

    But if you know something the rest of us don't, please send it to the White House and Bush Campaign immediately.

    "I wasn't happy when we found out there wasn't weapons. But Saddam Hussein was a unique threat. President George W. Bush, during Friday's presidential debate

    Bush is conceding that WMD's will never be found.

    And I agree that Hussein was a murderous dictator who treated his citizens badly. But that was never a reason given for the original purpose of going to war.

    Unless you once again know something the rest of us don't.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  20. #40
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Insurgent alliance fraying in Fallujah
    Locals, fearing invasion, turn against foreign Arabs

    Bilal Hussein / AP

    By Karl Vick

    Updated: 12:45 a.m. ET Oct. 13, 2004BAGHDAD, Iraq - Local insurgents in the city of Fallujah are turning against the foreign fighters who have been their allies in the rebellion that has held the U.S. military at bay in parts of Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland, according to Fallujah residents, insurgent leaders and Iraqi and U.S. officials.

    Relations are deteriorating as local fighters negotiate to avoid a U.S.-led military offensive against Fallujah, while foreign fighters press to attack Americans and their Iraqi supporters. The disputes have spilled over into harsh words and sporadic violence, with Fallujans killing at least five foreign Arabs in recent weeks, according to witnesses.

    "If the Arabs will not leave willingly, we will make them leave by force," said Jamal Adnan, a taxi driver who left his house in Fallujah's Shurta neighborhood a month ago after the house next door was bombed by U.S. aircraft targeting foreign insurgents.

    Located 35 miles west of Baghdad in Iraq's Sunni Triangle, Fallujah has been outside the control of Iraqi authorities and U.S. military forces since April, when a siege by U.S. Marines was lifted and Iraqi security forces were given responsibility for the city's security. Local and foreign insurgents gradually gained control, and Iraqi and U.S. officials say Fallujah has become a principal source of instability in the country.


    ē More news from Iraq

    U.S. and Iraqi authorities together have insisted that if Fallujah is to avoid an all-out assault aimed at regaining control of the city, foreign fighters must be ejected. Several local leaders of the insurgency say they, too, want to expel the foreigners, whom they scorn as terrorists. They heap particular contempt on Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian whose Monotheism and Jihad group has asserted responsibility for many of the deadliest attacks across Iraq, including videotaped beheadings.

    "He is mentally deranged, has distorted the image of the resistance and defamed it. I believe his end is near," Abu Abdalla Dulaimy, military commander of the First Army of Mohammad, said recently.

    One of the foreign guerrillas killed by local fighters was Abu Abdallah Suri, a Syrian and a prominent member of Zarqawi's group, whose body was discovered Sunday. Suri was shot in the head and chest while being chased by a carload of tribesmen, according to a security guard who said he witnessed the killing.

    Denied shelter
    Residents say foreign fighters recently have taken to gathering in Fallujah's grimy commercial district after being denied shelter in residential neighborhoods because their presence so often attracts U.S. warplanes. The airstrikes and the turmoil in the streets have spurred perhaps half of the city's 300,000 residents to flee, residents and officials said.

    U.S. aircraft hit Fallujah twice on Tuesday. An airstrike just after midnight destroyed the city's best-known restaurant, a kebab house that a military statement said was used as an arms depot, citing "numerous secondary explosions." A second strike at 4 a.m. destroyed "a known terrorist safe house" in the northeast of the city, the statement said.

    Adnan, the taxi driver who moved his panicked wife and four children to another town, said attitudes toward the foreign fighters have changed dramatically since they poured into Fallujah after the Marines' siege ended in April. "We were deceived by them," he said. "We welcomed them first because we thought they came to support us, but now everything is clear."

    Among the tensions dividing the locals and the foreigners is religion. People in Fallujah, known as the city of mosques, have chafed at the stern brand of Islam that the newcomers brought with them. The non-Iraqi Arabs berated women who did not cover themselves head-to-toe in black -- very rare in Iraq -- and violently opposed local customs rooted in the town's more mystical religious tradition. One Fallujah man killed a Kuwaiti who said he could not pray at the grave of an ancestor.

    Residents said the overwhelming majority of Fallujah's people also have been repulsed by the atrocities that Zarqawi and other extremists have made commonplace in Iraq. The foreign militants are thought to produce the car bombs that now explode around Iraq several times a day, and Zarqawi's organization has asserted responsibility for the slayings of several Westerners, some of which were shown in videos posted on the Internet.

    'Please do not mix the cards'
    There was another digital display of a beheading on Tuesday. The victim apparently was a Shiite Muslim Arab, and the group that said it posted the video identified itself as the Ansar al-Sunna Army.

    Abu Barra, commander of a group of native insurgents called the Allahu Akbar Battalions, said: "Please do not mix the cards. There is an Iraqi resistance, a genuine resistance, and there are other groups trying to settle accounts. There is also terror targeting Iraqis.

    President Bush, he said, "knows that and so does the government, but they purposely group all three under the tag of 'terrorism.' "

    Barra and other insurgent leaders said the "genuine resistance" is a disciplined force that restricts its attacks to military targets, chiefly U.S. forces. It is motivated, they say, by Iraqi nationalism and humiliation over what it regards as a foreign occupation.

    "The others," Barra said, "are Arab Salafis who claim that any Iraqi or Muslim not willing to carry arms is an infidel. They are the crux of our ailment. Most of them are Saudis, Syrians" and North Africans. Salafism is a strain of Islam that seeks to restore the faith to the way it was in the days of the prophet Muhammad, 14 centuries ago.

    "It is the Zarqawis and his Salafi group who are going to lead Fallujah, Samarra, Baqubah, Mosul and even some parts of Baghdad to disaster and death," Barra said.

    Such worries are encouraged by U.S. and Iraqi officials, who together have mounted offensives in recent weeks to reclaim areas held by insurgents. U.S. forces have led battles to take Najaf, Tall Afar, Samarra and, last week, a string of towns southwest of Baghdad. The operations are intended to establish government control over the entire country before nationwide elections promised for January.

    But they also serve, officials say, as a psychological lever on Fallujah, long considered the toughest insurgent outpost.

    "The pressure is certainly going up, both as a result of our airstrikes and as a result of their seeing Najaf, Tall Afar, Samarra giving a sense this whole thing is serious," a senior U.S. official in Baghdad said. "There's a lot of fear in Fallujah."

    Many residents say the same. A delegation of six prominent Fallujans began negotiating with Iraq's interim government late last month. But senior government officials said it was only after the Oct. 1 assault on Samarra that the Fallujah delegation approached the task with new zeal.

    The proposal the delegation took back to Fallujah calls for surrendering control of the city to the Iraqi National Guard. U.S. forces would remain outside the city unless the lightly armed government forces were attacked.

    Blamed for cease-fire violation
    But first, all foreign fighters must leave the city, and the foreigners are adamantly and publicly opposed to the plan. Their representative voted against it in a meeting last week of the city's ruling mujaheddin shura, or council of holy warriors, which supported the peace proposal, 10 to 2. The local insurgent who cast the other negative vote was later persuaded to change his mind, residents say.

    Foreign fighters already are blamed for violating a cease-fire in April and prompting a Marine offensive that killed hundreds. Dulaimy said a Syrian was slain by local insurgents "after he fired on American forces during the last truce." In remarks broadcast from one of the city's main mosques on Thursday, an insurgent negotiator, Khalid Hamoud Jumaili, said a city of several hundred thousand should not be sacrificed for a handful of foreign fighters.

    Meanwhile, U.S. forces kept up military pressure Tuesday in several nearby cities. Marines raided eight mosques allegedly used as armed bases in Ramadi, a provincial capital about 25 miles west of Fallujah, and called in airstrikes in the town of Hit, about 60 miles to the northwest.

    "I think there is unquestionably a fissure and there are probably several different splits based on different groups," said the U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because his remarks were not cleared by Washington. But "whether any of the townspeople have enough force to make this fissure into something that changes the complexion of things" remains to be seen, the official said.

    The assault on Samarra was mounted after a more unified local establishment headed by tribal leaders failed in a similar bid to eject a far smaller band of insurgents and foreign fighters than are holding Fallujah, the official noted.

    Maki Nazzal, a Fallujah native who travels into the city frequently as an aid worker, said substantial support remains for the foreigners, especially given the number of civilian casualties caused by U.S. airstrikes.

    "Not all the people in Fallujah want these people to leave," Nazzal said. "They always have the explanation of Americans bringing people from Spain, Salvador, Poland and over the world to help them and why can't our brothers help us?"

    Some foreign fighters already have left, at least for now. The fighting Tuesday in Hit erupted as Marines pursued insurgents who had recently arrived in the city from Fallujah, residents said.

    "There are Arab fighters and Iraqis too," said Omar Jabbawi, 23, an engineering student at Anbar University. "They are supplied with modern weapons which even the modern army didn't have. They killed some of the people the moment they came, saying that they were spies for the Americans."

    The blend of insurgents held the town, some patrolling a street of shuttered stores, others praying on the sidewalk.

    "Most of the people of the city knew that after Fallujah, the fighters will come to Hit because it is an open city and has many wide woods in which maneuvering is easy," said Abeer Fadhill, 32, a traffic policeman.

    A woman in Hit said one fighter had said they had come to liberate Hit as they had Fallujah.

    "We don't want to be another Fallujah," said the woman, 45, who gave her name as Umm Hussein. "Ramadan is coming, and we don't have any will to lose a father, a son, a relative or even a friend. Let them leave in peace and fight in a desert away from houses and people."

    © 2004 The Washington Post Company
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey lookie, it seems that Iraq is full of little dirtbags from other nations and they are not wanted. Haven't we been saying this all along? Let them kill each other off so that the people who truly want good things for their country can get them.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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