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    Originally posted by VinnieB


    You have not proven anything....you have provided opinions....you need to re-read your post...All you do is dodge the origianl questions....and yes its just like tennis.
    Ditto. All you have provided are opinions as well. Re-read your post.

    I have now put forth several commentaries by folks who have a decent amount of experience in both military and foreign policy opinions. Like I said. The perception of empire building from an Iraqi perspective is not an empirical concept.

    Believe what you want. Hussein was never a threat. And now this foreign policy fiasco is being paid for with the lives and blood of real Americans.

    Sad, sad, sad.

    Deny it all you want. I consider myself fortunate my children are beyond draft age and have no desire to join the military.
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    Originally posted by scfire86
    [B]Here's another perspective from the liberal WSJ. It's just a journalist on the ground. What does he know compared to your being a Marine and all. This is probably where you'll post another threat to have Ollie North kick my ***. Ooooohhhhh very scary.


    Ah yes...I was waiting for this....You get pounded and you resort to childish stuff this this....I can not recall were I posted a threat that Col. North is going to kick you ***.....that may have been someone else....You have a short memory...let me reiterate for you....I classed you within the like of the other liberal ****** Bags...and I also state that I thought you were full of Sh*t...I do believe I said..."Running Eagle"....so full of it that you can't run?......


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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Ditto. All you have provided are opinions as well. Re-read your post.


    Really?!?!...wow I was unaware that what I provided about the Brit/Palestine, French/Algeria, and the bit about King Faisel II and the Qu'an was all opinion?...Gee....I guess I need to re-write my thesis.... ...I better tell the publishing companies to re-write the books...Its all opinions....they on;y opinions I gave are spelled out in my previous post.......We can continue this He Said, She Said Garbage...or you can answer the origianl questions Sharkie and I presented to you?
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    Scfire ....here is an article....not written by a retired Col.(who is not in Iraq), or some Journalist..(WSJ, NR, NPR, WP..etc, etc, etc) It is told by the men there....It spells out the problems....And these are problems that Kerry has no plan for....I would hope that this all changes after Nov 2. Its unfortunate that is what we have to wait for but...non the less....fact and (fog) of war.

    I am not suprised at an article like this....Junior troops griping...gee that never happens?



    By Steve Fainaru

    Updated: 2:08 a.m. ET Oct. 10, 2004ISKANDARIYAH, Iraq - Scrawled on the helmet of Lance Cpl. Carlos Perez are the letters FDNY. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York, the Pentagon and western Pennsylvania, Perez quit school, left his job as a firefighter in Long Island, N.Y., and joined the U.S. Marine Corps.


    "To be honest, I just wanted to take revenge," said Perez, 20.

    Now, two months into a seven-month combat tour in Iraq, Perez said he sees little connection between the events of Sept. 11 and the war he is fighting. Instead, he said, he is increasingly disillusioned by a conflict whose origins remain unclear and frustrated by the timidity of U.S. forces against a mostly faceless enemy.

    "Sometimes I see no reason why we're here," Perez said. "First of all, you cannot engage as many times as we want to. Second of all, we're looking for an enemy that's not there. The only way to do it is go house to house until we get out of here."

    Battling frustration, doubt
    Perez is hardly alone. In a dozen interviews, Marines from a platoon known as the "81s" expressed in blunt terms their frustrations with the way the war is being conducted and, in some cases, doubts about why it is being waged. The platoon, named for the size in millimeters of its mortar rounds, is part of the 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment based in Iskandariyah, 30 miles southwest of Baghdad.

    The Marines offered their opinions openly to a reporter traveling with the 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines during operations last week in Babil province, then expanded upon them during interviews over three days in their barracks at Camp Iskandariyah, their forward operating base.

    The Marines' opinions have been shaped by their participation in hundreds of hours of operations over the past two months. Their assessments differ sharply from those of the interim Iraqi government and the Bush administration, which have said that Iraq is on a certain if bumpy course toward peaceful democracy.

    "I feel we're going to be here for years and years and years," said Lance Cpl. Edward Elston, 22, of Hackettstown, N.J. "I don't think anything is going to get better; I think it's going to get a lot worse. It's going to be like a Palestinian-type deal. We're going to stop being a policing presence and then start being an occupying presence. ... We're always going to be here. We're never going to leave."

    The views of the mortar platoon of some 50 young Marines, several of whom fought during the first phase of the war last year, are not necessarily reflective of all or even most U.S troops fighting in Iraq. Rather, they offer a snapshot of the frustrations engendered by a grinding conflict that has killed 1,064 Americans, wounded 7,730 and spread to many areas of the country.

    Although not as highly publicized as attacks in such hot spots as Fallujah, Samarra and Baghdad's Sadr City, the violence in Babil province, south of the capital, is also intense. Since July 28, when the Marines took over operational responsibility for the region, 102 of the unit's 1,100 troops have been wounded, 85 in combat, according to battalion records. Four have been killed, two in combat.

    Senior officers attribute the vast difference between the number of killed and wounded to the effectiveness of armor bullet-proof vests, helmets and reinforced armored vehicles, primarily Humvees in the face of persistent attacks. As of last week, the Marines had come upon 61 roadside bombs, nearly one a day. Forty-nine had detonated. Camp Iskandariyah was hit by mortar shells or rockets on 12 occasions; 21 other times insurgents tried to hit the base and missed.

    Realities on the ground
    Several members of the platoon said they were struck by the difference between the way the war was being portrayed in the United States and the reality of their daily lives.

    "Every day you read the articles in the States where it's like, 'Oh, it's getting better and better,' " said Lance Cpl. Jonathan Snyder, 22, of Gettysburg, Pa. "But when you're here, you know it's worse every day."

    Pfc. Kyle Maio, 19, of Bucks County, Pa., said he thought government officials were reticent to speak candidly because of the upcoming U.S. elections. "Stuff's going on here but they won't flat-out say it," he said. "They can't get into it."

    Maio said that when he arrived in Iraq, "I didn't think I was going to live this long, in all honesty." He added, "it ain't that bad. It's just part of the job, I guess."

    As a reporter began to ask Maio another question, the interview was interrupted by the scream of an incoming rocket and then a deafening explosion outside the platoon's barracks. Pandemonium ensued.

    "Get down! Get down!" yelled the platoon's radio operator, Cpl. Brandon Autin, 21, of New Iberia, La., his orders laced with profanity. "Get in the bunker! Get in the bunker now!"

    Members of the platoon raced out of their rooms to a 5-by-15-foot bunker, located outside at the end of the one-story building. The dirt-floor room was protected by a low ceiling and walls built out of four-foot-thick sandbags. Once in the bunker, several Marines lit cigarettes, filling the already-congested room with smoke.

    "The reality right now is that the most dangerous opinion in the world is the opinion of a U.S. serviceman," said Lance Cpl. Devin Kelly, 20, of Fairbanks, Alaska.

    Lance Cpl. Alexander Jones, 20, of Ball Ground, Ga., agreed: "We're basically proving out that the government is wrong," he said. "We're catching them in a lie."

    Fighting an invisible enemy
    Senior officers said they shared many of the platoon's frustrations but added that it was difficult for low-level Marines to see the larger progress being made across Iraq. Maj. Douglas Bell, the battalion's executive officer, said "one of the most difficult things about the insurgency is identifying the enemy."

    Bell said it was frustrating for "every Marine in the battalion" to search for insurgents on a daily basis, only to be attacked repeatedly with bombs and mortars detonated or launched by an invisible enemy. "You want to get your hand around his frigging collar and kick his ***," Bell said. "But they slip away."

    Bell said Marines offering dire predictions for Iraq were not taking into account the training of the new Iraqi security forces. He said the installation of the new Iraqi army, Iraqi National Guard and police across the country would lay the foundation for the withdrawal of U.S. troops.

    "That's how we're going to get out of Iraq," Bell said. "That's how America is going to get out of Iraq."

    The Marines acknowledged that the elusiveness of the insurgents was frustrating. "You don't really know who you're fighting. You're more or less fighting objects," said Elston, the lance corporal from New Jersey. "You see something on the side of the road. It blows up."

    But the Marines said their frustrations run deeper. Several said the Iraqi security forces who are supposed to ultimately replace them were nowhere near ready and may never be.

    "They can't take care of themselves," said Lance Cpl. Matthew Combs, 19, of Cincinnati, who added that he didn't think the National Guardsmen "can do anything. They just do what we tell them to do."

    The price of precaution
    he Marines also expressed frustration that they were unable to fight more aggressively because of restraints in the rules of engagement imposed by senior commanders.

    The rules, which require Marines to positively identify their target as hostile before shooting, are cumbersome in the face of urban guerrilla warfare, several of them said.

    "When we get called out, we'll sit there staging there for an hour," Maio said. "By the time we're ready to move, they're up and gone. A few weeks ago, the Iskandariyah police station was under attack. We staged for damn near an hour before we went out. It's stupid. You have to wait to get approval and all this other stuff."

    Kelly, the lance corporal from Alaska, said he understood the need to protect civilians but that the restraints were jeopardizing American lives. "It seems as if they place more value on obeying the letter of the law and sacrificing our lives than following the spirit of the law and getting the job done," he said of his commanders.

    Bell said the Marines' frustration was understandable but that it was extremely difficult to make a determination of hostile intent following a roadside bombing that might have been detonated by anything from a remote-controlled toy car to a cell phone. "That's a pretty difficult decision to make for a 19-year-old kid," he said.

    Lance Cpl. Jeremy Kyrk, 21, of Chicago, said the insurgents took advantage of the limitations imposed on U.S. troops. "They don't give us any leeway, they don't give us any quarter," he said. "They catch people and cut their heads off. They know our limits, but they have no limits. We can't compete with that."

    A decision to serve
    Perez said the frustrations inherent in the war became apparent almost immediately after he arrived in Iraq in late July. A Colombian immigrant, he said he decided to join the Marine Corps after attending the funeral of a friend who had died in the Sept. 11 attacks. The friend, Thomas Hetzel, was a volunteer firefighter at the Franklin Square & Munson Fire Department on Long Island, where Perez also volunteered.

    At the time, Perez was studying criminal justice at Nassau Community College. "While I was at the funeral I was looking at his little daughter cry," he said. "He had a pregnant wife and two kids. I just said, 'All right, this is what I want to do.' "

    But Perez said he came to think that war in Iraq was unrelated to his anger. "How do I put this?" he said. "First of all, this is a whole different thing. We're supposed to be looking for al Qaeda. They're the ones who are supposedly responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks. This has no connection at all to Sept. 11 because this war started just by telling us about all the nuclear warheads over here."

    Snyder, who was listening, added: "Pretty much I think they just diverted the war on terrorism. I agree with the Afghanistan war and all the Sept. 11 stuff, but it feels like they left the bigger war over there to come here. And now, while we're on the ground over here, it seems like we're not even close to catching frigging bin Laden."

    Perez said he thought that in some ways he was still fighting terrorists "and I can see how they might attack the United States in the future. It's a link, but it's not really based in the same thing."

    Perez added that he now believes the primary reason for the U.S. presence is to help the Iraqis. "But they don't seem like they want to be helped," he said. "I've only been here two months, but every time you go out, people give you bad looks and it just seems like everybody wants to shoot you."

    Questioning orders
    The frustration of the Marines was evident one afternoon last week as members of the platoon traveled from Forward Operating Base Kalsu back to Camp Iskandariyah. An attack had reportedly taken place in the area, and members of the platoon were asked to leave their Humvees and walk up a road to look for suspicious activity.

    Traffic quickly began to pile up: cars packed with families, trucks loaded with animals and vegetables. The line of vehicles would have taken hours to search. An order was suddenly passed for the Marines to search all buses for insurgents or weapons.

    "This is what we call a dog-and-pony show," said Kelly, the heavyset, sharp-tongued lance corporal from Fairbanks. He said the operation was essentially a performance for American reporters who were traveling with the Marines. "This is so you can write in your paper how great our response is," he said.

    Combs and another Marine boarded a small bus packed mostly with women and children. He walked up the center aisle carrying his M-16 assault rifle, then got off, disgusted.

    "We just scared the living [expletive] out of a bunch of people," he said. "That's all we did."

    When the Marines returned to their truck, Autin and Kelly began to debate the merits of the American presence in Iraq.

    "And, by the way, why are we here?" Autin said.

    "I'll tell you why we're here," Kelly replied. "We're here to help these people."

    Autin agreed and said he supported the mission.

    He added later that it was difficult to wage the battle when American commanders were holding them back.

    "We feel they care more about Iraqi civilians than they do American soldiers," he said.

    Asked if he was concerned that the Marines would be punished for speaking out, Autin responded: "We don't give a crap. What are they going to do, send us to Iraq?"

    2004 The Washington Post Company
    Last edited by VinnieB; 10-14-2004 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Things will get better.

    While I can't find any articles right now, I remember some of the same type of things being written about Kabal, Afghanistan some time ago. Things are quite different now.





    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    EDITORIAL
    Afghanistan's historic vote

    Tuesday, October 12, 2004

    DESPITE early predictions of widespread voting fraud and polling errors, it appears that Afghanistan's first-ever presidential election succeeded -- an optimistic sign in a nation that has known mostly darkness in recent decades.

    Election officials said that millions of voters turned out for the election, far surpassing even the brightest estimates of Western diplomats. And the historic vote wasn't marred by violence, a defeat for the Taliban militia and other armed groups who had warned that there would be attacks at the polling places.

    Although it will take several weeks to tally the votes and allow investigators to look into complaints of some voting irregularities, the election is a key step in moving the country closer to self-determination. If President Hamid Karzai wins a five-year term, in what United Nations officials termed a "free and fair'' election, it could provide some stability for a nation he has governed since being installed by a U.N.-sponsored conference three years ago.

    Although critics of the Bush administration are quick to discount anything positive about the concept of nation-building, there's no downplaying some improvements in Afghanistan since the U.S. invasion. Millions of children have returned to school, health conditions have improved, and there's been a marked increase in per-capita income. Since Karzai took office, a significant number of militia members in the war-torn country have been demobilized.

    The election is no panacea for Afghanistan, which faces daunting obstacles during its reconstruction. But in a country that has endured occupation, civil war and medieval-style rule, a peaceful, nationwide vote is a clear sign of advancement.

    Seems to me that the election wasn't just a clear sign of advancement but a tremendous loss to the Taliban specifically, and terror organizations generally. The conditions now in Iraq, will not persist, just as they have not persisted in Afghanistan. The naysayers from the press all predicted failure in Afghanistan, and that obviously isn't the case now.

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    I agree Glowpop.....I also agree w/ Scfire...well to the fact that we disagree.....He'll never provide the answers I am looking for and like wise....
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    Originally posted by VinnieB
    I agree Glowpop.....I also agree w/ Scfire...well to the fact that we disagree.....He'll never provide the answers I am looking for and like wise....
    Well Vinny. If you don't believe I have answered your questions, it's your right to believe that. I also have the right to believe that I have answered your questions.

    If you can't see the similarities between our policy in Iraq and the French experience in Algeria or the British experience in Palestine that is okay. Naivete isn't against the law. If it were, we would have all been in jail at one time or another.
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Well Vinny. If you don't believe I have answered your questions, it's your right to believe that. I also have the right to believe that I have answered your questions.

    If you can't see the similarities between our policy in Iraq and the French experience in Algeria or the British experience in Palestine that is okay. Naivete isn't against the law. If it were, we would have all been in jail at one time or another.

    Scfire...how is it that all of us think alike and we are naieve? There you go again...onto the European experience in Arab countries....I pointed out were you are wrong....Its a matter of history...NOT opinion. I don't know what your major in college was but it sure wasn't military history or forign policy. The similarities are that they all are a Guerilla war...and the most pressing factors of those conflicts are not even CLOSE to the US experiance in Iraq....You still have not yet answered on your Guerilla War...and Motivation not relevant theory. Ok...how about this....IN YOUR WORDS...post the similarities....fasion it in the way I debunked your post in regards to the French/Algerian Question. No more Opinion Posts...just facts....SHOW me the similarites. Things are very tough there now....but the attacks prior to our and the Iraqi elections were expected....this campaign is a chapter right out of the Guerrilla warfare textbook....but what I do not see happening is our tactics changing in the next 19 days....only after the elections will we see a change....even if Bush is reelected or not...the man has nothing to lose....His admin has even stated that nothing will happen in fallujah or Sadr until after the elections.....remember the saying..."No Struggle, No Progress"...
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    Found this article on another site.....

    I read this over...and thought....what about Tarawa and Pelilu...


    The Washington Times

    Iwo Jima, if covered by media today

    By Zell Miller

    What if today's reporters had covered the Marines landing on Iwo Jima, a small island in the far away Pacific Ocean, in the same way they're covering the war in Iraq? Here's how it might have looked:

    DAY 1

    With the aid of satellite technology, Cutie Cudley interviews Marine Pfc. John Doe, who earlier came ashore with 30,000 other Marines.

    Cutie: "John, we have been told by the administration that this island has great strategic importance because if you're successful, it could become a fueling stop for our bombers on the way to Japan. But, as you know, we can't be sure this is the truth. What do you think?"

    Pfc. Doe: "Well, I've been pinned down by enemy fire almost ever since I got here and have had a couple of buddies killed right beside me. I'm a Marine and I go where they send me. One thing's for sure, they are putting up a fight not to give up this island."

    Cutie: "Our military analysts tell us that the Japanese are holed up in caves and miles of connecting tunnels they've built over the years. How will you ever get them out?"

    Pfc. Doe: "With flame throwers, ma'am."

    Cutie (incredulously): "Flame throwers? You'll burn them alive?"

    Pfc. Doe: "Yes ma'am, we'll fry their asses. Excuse me, I shouldn't have said that on TV."

    Cutie (audible gasp): "How horrible!"

    Pfc. Doe (obviously wanting to move on): "We're at war ma'am."
    (A Marine sergeant watching nearby yells, "Ask her what does she want us to do ? sing to them, 'Come out, come out, wherever you are. Pretty please.' "

    Cutie: "Pfc. Doe, what's that mountain in the background? Is that the one they say is impregnable?"

    Pfc. Doe: "I don't know what that word means, ma'am, but that's Mt. Suribachi, and we're going to put a flag right up on top of it just as soon as we can. I gotta go."

    Cutie to camera: "No one has yet really confirmed why this particular battle in this particular place is even being waged. Already, on the first day, at least 500 Marines have been killed and a thousand wounded. For this? (Camera pans to a map with a speck of an island in the Pacific. Then a close up of nothing but black volcanic ash). For this? For this?" (Cutie's sweet voice becomes more strident as it fades out.)

    DAY 2

    At 7 a.m., Cutie's morning show opens with a shot of hundreds of dead bodies bobbing in the water's edge. Others are piled on top of each other on shore. After a few seconds, one can see Marines digging graves to bury the dead.

    Cutie: "There is no way the Marines could have expected this. Someone got it all wrong. No one predicted this. This has been a horrible 24 hours for our country. This is a slaughterhouse. After all this fighting, Marines control only about a mile and a half of beach and the casualties are now over 3,500 and rising rapidly. We'd like to know what you think. Call the number on the bottom of the screen. Give us your opinions on these three
    questions:

    1. Were the Marines properly trained?
    2. Is this nothing of an island worth all these lives?
    3. Has the president once again misled the American people?

    "After the break, we'll ask our own Democratic and Republican analysts, both shouting at the same time, of course, what they have to yell about all this. It should make for a very shrill, provocative morning.

    "But before we leave this horrible ? some will say needless ? scene, let us give you one more look at this Godforsaken place where these young Americans are dying. Volcanic ash, cold, wet miserable Marines just thankful to be alive. And still no flag that we had been promised on that mountain. Things have gone from bad to worse in this obviously misguided military operation. One thing is certain, there should be and there will be a high-partisan ? make that bi-partisan ? congressional inquiry into this."

    DAY 3

    Cutie: "Marines continue to be locked in a life-or-death struggle over this worthless piece of real estate in the middle of the Pacific. The word 'quagmire' is being used in the U.S. Senate, a body very familiar with quagmires. Senator Blowhard has called it 'a colossal military blunder.' And Senator Bombast maintains it was a fraudulent scheme hatched while the president was on his sixth vacation at the Little White House in Georgia.

    "The recently organized Senate Squeakers Group may ask for the president to resign. They maintain that politics should not stop at the waters edge in times of war, calling that tradition an old-fashioned idea that has no place in the new century of dysfunctional government. Over forty special interest groups concurred and all issued identical news releases."

    "We now turn to our politicalanalyst,James Crankville."

    (James):"Cutie,the overnight poll numbers have hit this president right between the eyes. Nationwide, an overwhelming 98 percent said that if possible, they would like to see this country fight a war without a single American casualty. That is nearly the same percentage we saw three days ago when the American public said they would be in favor of going to war if we could win without firing a shot. So, you can see there is a trend developing here that spells trouble for this administration."

    "That this president is going ahead with this war is just unbelievable. The witty New York Times columnist, Myscream Loud, wrote in her inimitable fashion that 'The president's policy is as crippled as his legs.'
    (giggle)
    Last week she said he had reached the point where no one will 'Fala' him. F-A-L-A, his dog, get it (more giggles)? Has that woman got a way with words! Go girl."

    DAY 4

    Cutie (holds up front page of the New York Times): "This morning, the New York Times had this photo on the front page. As you can see, the Marines have finally raised a flag on Mt. Suribachi on Iwo Jima. The fighting is still going on but it looks like this battle is over. We tried to find Pfc. Doe, the young Marine I interviewed that terrible first day, but he was unavailable. Here is Corporal Smith though. (With girlish enthusiasm). "Well, we see that flag flying. It's pretty much over isn't it?"

    Cpl. Smith: "Oh, no ma'am, it's not over by any means. We've got weeks of fighting and dying to go yet. This place is a long ways from being secured. But we did get that flag up there and it sure makes us all proud."

    Cutie: "I can't tell much from the photo. Their faces are not even visible, making it impossible for us to descend upon any of their families. Corporal Smith, do you know any of the flag raisers? And do you know who ordered it put up there? Did the order come directly from the president for political reasons?"

    Cpl. Smith: "All I know is that I heard some colonel put the word out that he wanted 'a flag put up there where every son of a bitch on this island could see it.' Excuse me, ma'am."

    Cutie: "We know you've been in the heat of battle so,..."

    Cpl. Smith: "Still am, ma'am."

    Cutie: "Yes, of course, but it's all over. (Nervous giggle). Except here on Capitol Hill, of course. Corporal Smith, I wonder if you know the gender, race and ethnicity of the group that put the flag up. In other words, did that group 'look like America?' "

    Corporal Smith: "Look like America? They are Americans, ma'am. United States Marines."

    Cutie: "Any females?"

    Cpl. Smith: "No, ma'am."

    Cutie: "Any African Americans?"

    Cpl. Smith: "I don't know, ma'am. But there is an Indian in Easy Company."

    Cutie: "You mean Native American?"

    Cpl. Smith: "Whatever, ma'am, I've got to cut out. My outfit is moving on and we've got a lot to do."

    Cutie: "And we've got a lot to do here too. Spring training has started and the sun is shining brightly in Florida. But first this word from our sponsors."

    Historical note: In one of the bloodiest battles of World War II, when it was said "uncommon courage was a common virtue," 6,000 Marines were killed and 18,000 wounded. Some 21,000 Japanese were killed. The island itself is still barren and only a handful of people live on it. But after it was secured by the Marines, B-29s made over 2,200 emergency landings on it, saving the lives of more than 24,000 crewmen. AP photographer Joe Rosenthal won a Pulitzer Prize for the flag-raising photo. Of the six men in the photo, three were buried in that black volcanic ash, one came out on a stretcher. Only two walked off the island.

    As most of you know Zell Miller is a Democratic U.S. senator from Georgia.
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    Default I guess this is working?




    Insurgent Alliance Is Fraying In Fallujah Locals,
    Fearing Invasion, Turn Against Foreign Arabs
    By Karl Vick

    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Wednesday, October 13, 2004; Page A01

    BAGHDAD, Oct. 12 -- Local insurgents in the city of Fallujah are turning against the foreign fighters who have been their allies in the rebellion that has held the U.S. military at bay in parts of Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland, according to Fallujah residents, insurgent leaders and Iraqi and U.S. officials.

    Relations are deteriorating as local fighters negotiate to avoid a U.S.-led military offensive against Fallujah, while foreign fighters press to attack Americans and their Iraqi supporters. The disputes have spilled over into harsh words and sporadic violence, with Fallujans killing at least five foreign Arabs in recent weeks, according to witnesses.

    "If the Arabs will not leave willingly, we will make them leave by force," said Jamal Adnan, a taxi driver who left his house in Fallujah's Shurta neighborhood a month ago after the house next door was bombed by U.S. aircraft targeting foreign insurgents.

    Located 35 miles west of Baghdad in Iraq's Sunni Triangle, Fallujah has been outside the control of Iraqi authorities and U.S. military forces since April, when a siege by U.S. Marines was lifted and Iraqi security forces were given responsibility for the city's security. Local and foreign insurgents gradually gained control, and Iraqi and U.S. officials say Fallujah has become a principal source of instability in the country.

    U.S. and Iraqi authorities together have insisted that if Fallujah is to avoid an all-out assault aimed at regaining control of the city, foreign fighters must be ejected. Several local leaders of the insurgency say they, too, want to expel the foreigners, whom they scorn as terrorists. They heap particular contempt on Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian whose Monotheism and Jihad group has asserted responsibility for many of the deadliest attacks across Iraq, including videotaped beheadings.

    "He is mentally deranged, has distorted the image of the resistance and defamed it. I believe his end is near," Abu Abdalla Dulaimy, military commander of the First Army of Mohammad, said.

    One of the foreign guerrillas killed by local fighters was Abu Abdallah Suri, a Syrian and a prominent member of Zarqawi's group. Suri's body was discovered Sunday. He was shot in the head and chest while being chased by a carload of tribesmen, according to a security guard who said he witnessed the killing.

    Residents say foreign fighters recently have taken to gathering in Fallujah's grimy commercial district after being denied shelter in residential neighborhoods because their presence so often attracts U.S. warplanes. The airstrikes and the turmoil in the streets have spurred perhaps half of the city's 300,000 residents to flee, residents and officials said.

    U.S. aircraft hit Fallujah twice on Tuesday. An airstrike just after midnight destroyed the city's best-known restaurant, a kebab house that a military statement said was used as an arms depot, citing "numerous secondary explosions." A second strike at 4 a.m. destroyed "a known terrorist safe house" in the northeast of the city, the statement said.

    Adnan, the taxi driver who moved his panicked wife and four children to another town, said attitudes toward the foreign fighters have changed dramatically since they poured into Fallujah after the Marines' siege ended in April. "We were deceived by them," he said. "We welcomed them first because we thought they came to support us, but now everything is clear."

    Among the tensions dividing the locals and the foreigners is religion. People in Fallujah, known as the city of mosques, have chafed at the stern brand of Islam that the newcomers brought with them. The non-Iraqi Arabs berated women who did not cover themselves head-to-toe in black -- very rare in Iraq -- and violently opposed local customs rooted in the town's more mystical religious tradition.


    One Fallujah man killed a Kuwaiti who said he could not pray at the grave of an ancestor.

    Residents said the overwhelming majority of Fallujah's people also have been repulsed by the atrocities that Zarqawi and other extremists have made commonplace in Iraq. The foreign militants are thought to produce the car bombs that now explode around Iraq several times a day, and Zarqawi's organization has asserted responsibility for the slayings of several Westerners, some of which were shown in videos posted on the Internet.

    There was another digital display of a beheading on Tuesday. The victim apparently was a Shiite Muslim Arab, and the group that said it posted the video identified itself as the Ansar al-Sunna Army.

    Abu Barra, commander of a group of native insurgents called the Allahu Akbar Battalions, said: "Please do not mix the cards. There is an Iraqi resistance, a genuine resistance, and there are other groups trying to settle accounts. There is also terror targeting Iraqis.
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    Originally posted by VinnieB



    Scfire...how is it that all of us think alike and we are naieve? There you go again...onto the European experience in Arab countries....I pointed out were you are wrong....Its a matter of history...NOT opinion. I don't know what your major in college was but it sure wasn't military history or forign policy. The similarities are that they all are a Guerilla war...and the most pressing factors of those conflicts are not even CLOSE to the US experiance in Iraq....You still have not yet answered on your Guerilla War...and Motivation not relevant theory. Ok...how about this....IN YOUR WORDS...post the similarities....fasion it in the way I debunked your post in regards to the French/Algerian Question. No more Opinion Posts...just facts....SHOW me the similarites. Things are very tough there now....but the attacks prior to our and the Iraqi elections were expected....this campaign is a chapter right out of the Guerrilla warfare textbook....but what I do not see happening is our tactics changing in the next 19 days....only after the elections will we see a change....even if Bush is reelected or not...the man has nothing to lose....His admin has even stated that nothing will happen in fallujah or Sadr until after the elections.....remember the saying..."No Struggle, No Progress"...
    You proved that you are only willing to not see the parallels. That's fine. I'm one of those crazy liberals that believes you have a right to your wrong opinion.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Originally posted by scfire86


    You proved that you are only willing to not see the parallels. That's fine. I'm one of those crazy liberals that believes you have a right to your wrong opinion.

    ....thought so
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