I agree Glowpop.....I also agree w/ Scfire...well to the fact that we disagree.....He'll never provide the answers I am looking for and like wise....
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10-14-2004, 10:19 AM #81IACOJ Member
10-14-2004, 10:36 AM #82Originally posted by VinnieB
I agree Glowpop.....I also agree w/ Scfire...well to the fact that we disagree.....He'll never provide the answers I am looking for and like wise....
If you can't see the similarities between our policy in Iraq and the French experience in Algeria or the British experience in Palestine that is okay. Naivete isn't against the law. If it were, we would have all been in jail at one time or another.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
10-14-2004, 11:16 AM #83Originally posted by scfire86
Well Vinny. If you don't believe I have answered your questions, it's your right to believe that. I also have the right to believe that I have answered your questions.
If you can't see the similarities between our policy in Iraq and the French experience in Algeria or the British experience in Palestine that is okay. Naivete isn't against the law. If it were, we would have all been in jail at one time or another.
Scfire...how is it that all of us think alike and we are naieve? There you go again...onto the European experience in Arab countries....I pointed out were you are wrong....Its a matter of history...NOT opinion. I don't know what your major in college was but it sure wasn't military history or forign policy. The similarities are that they all are a Guerilla war...and the most pressing factors of those conflicts are not even CLOSE to the US experiance in Iraq....You still have not yet answered on your Guerilla War...and Motivation not relevant theory. Ok...how about this....IN YOUR WORDS...post the similarities....fasion it in the way I debunked your post in regards to the French/Algerian Question. No more Opinion Posts...just facts....SHOW me the similarites. Things are very tough there now....but the attacks prior to our and the Iraqi elections were expected....this campaign is a chapter right out of the Guerrilla warfare textbook....but what I do not see happening is our tactics changing in the next 19 days....only after the elections will we see a change....even if Bush is reelected or not...the man has nothing to lose....His admin has even stated that nothing will happen in fallujah or Sadr until after the elections.....remember the saying..."No Struggle, No Progress"...IACOJ Member
10-14-2004, 02:04 PM #84
Found this article on another site.....
I read this over...and thought....what about Tarawa and Pelilu...
The Washington Times
Iwo Jima, if covered by media today
By Zell Miller
What if today's reporters had covered the Marines landing on Iwo Jima, a small island in the far away Pacific Ocean, in the same way they're covering the war in Iraq? Here's how it might have looked:
With the aid of satellite technology, Cutie Cudley interviews Marine Pfc. John Doe, who earlier came ashore with 30,000 other Marines.
Cutie: "John, we have been told by the administration that this island has great strategic importance because if you're successful, it could become a fueling stop for our bombers on the way to Japan. But, as you know, we can't be sure this is the truth. What do you think?"
Pfc. Doe: "Well, I've been pinned down by enemy fire almost ever since I got here and have had a couple of buddies killed right beside me. I'm a Marine and I go where they send me. One thing's for sure, they are putting up a fight not to give up this island."
Cutie: "Our military analysts tell us that the Japanese are holed up in caves and miles of connecting tunnels they've built over the years. How will you ever get them out?"
Pfc. Doe: "With flame throwers, ma'am."
Cutie (incredulously): "Flame throwers? You'll burn them alive?"
Pfc. Doe: "Yes ma'am, we'll fry their asses. Excuse me, I shouldn't have said that on TV."
Cutie (audible gasp): "How horrible!"
Pfc. Doe (obviously wanting to move on): "We're at war ma'am."
(A Marine sergeant watching nearby yells, "Ask her what does she want us to do ? sing to them, 'Come out, come out, wherever you are. Pretty please.' "
Cutie: "Pfc. Doe, what's that mountain in the background? Is that the one they say is impregnable?"
Pfc. Doe: "I don't know what that word means, ma'am, but that's Mt. Suribachi, and we're going to put a flag right up on top of it just as soon as we can. I gotta go."
Cutie to camera: "No one has yet really confirmed why this particular battle in this particular place is even being waged. Already, on the first day, at least 500 Marines have been killed and a thousand wounded. For this? (Camera pans to a map with a speck of an island in the Pacific. Then a close up of nothing but black volcanic ash). For this? For this?" (Cutie's sweet voice becomes more strident as it fades out.)
At 7 a.m., Cutie's morning show opens with a shot of hundreds of dead bodies bobbing in the water's edge. Others are piled on top of each other on shore. After a few seconds, one can see Marines digging graves to bury the dead.
Cutie: "There is no way the Marines could have expected this. Someone got it all wrong. No one predicted this. This has been a horrible 24 hours for our country. This is a slaughterhouse. After all this fighting, Marines control only about a mile and a half of beach and the casualties are now over 3,500 and rising rapidly. We'd like to know what you think. Call the number on the bottom of the screen. Give us your opinions on these three
1. Were the Marines properly trained?
2. Is this nothing of an island worth all these lives?
3. Has the president once again misled the American people?
"After the break, we'll ask our own Democratic and Republican analysts, both shouting at the same time, of course, what they have to yell about all this. It should make for a very shrill, provocative morning.
"But before we leave this horrible ? some will say needless ? scene, let us give you one more look at this Godforsaken place where these young Americans are dying. Volcanic ash, cold, wet miserable Marines just thankful to be alive. And still no flag that we had been promised on that mountain. Things have gone from bad to worse in this obviously misguided military operation. One thing is certain, there should be and there will be a high-partisan ? make that bi-partisan ? congressional inquiry into this."
Cutie: "Marines continue to be locked in a life-or-death struggle over this worthless piece of real estate in the middle of the Pacific. The word 'quagmire' is being used in the U.S. Senate, a body very familiar with quagmires. Senator Blowhard has called it 'a colossal military blunder.' And Senator Bombast maintains it was a fraudulent scheme hatched while the president was on his sixth vacation at the Little White House in Georgia.
"The recently organized Senate Squeakers Group may ask for the president to resign. They maintain that politics should not stop at the waters edge in times of war, calling that tradition an old-fashioned idea that has no place in the new century of dysfunctional government. Over forty special interest groups concurred and all issued identical news releases."
"We now turn to our politicalanalyst,James Crankville."
(James):"Cutie,the overnight poll numbers have hit this president right between the eyes. Nationwide, an overwhelming 98 percent said that if possible, they would like to see this country fight a war without a single American casualty. That is nearly the same percentage we saw three days ago when the American public said they would be in favor of going to war if we could win without firing a shot. So, you can see there is a trend developing here that spells trouble for this administration."
"That this president is going ahead with this war is just unbelievable. The witty New York Times columnist, Myscream Loud, wrote in her inimitable fashion that 'The president's policy is as crippled as his legs.'
Last week she said he had reached the point where no one will 'Fala' him. F-A-L-A, his dog, get it (more giggles)? Has that woman got a way with words! Go girl."
Cutie (holds up front page of the New York Times): "This morning, the New York Times had this photo on the front page. As you can see, the Marines have finally raised a flag on Mt. Suribachi on Iwo Jima. The fighting is still going on but it looks like this battle is over. We tried to find Pfc. Doe, the young Marine I interviewed that terrible first day, but he was unavailable. Here is Corporal Smith though. (With girlish enthusiasm). "Well, we see that flag flying. It's pretty much over isn't it?"
Cpl. Smith: "Oh, no ma'am, it's not over by any means. We've got weeks of fighting and dying to go yet. This place is a long ways from being secured. But we did get that flag up there and it sure makes us all proud."
Cutie: "I can't tell much from the photo. Their faces are not even visible, making it impossible for us to descend upon any of their families. Corporal Smith, do you know any of the flag raisers? And do you know who ordered it put up there? Did the order come directly from the president for political reasons?"
Cpl. Smith: "All I know is that I heard some colonel put the word out that he wanted 'a flag put up there where every son of a bitch on this island could see it.' Excuse me, ma'am."
Cutie: "We know you've been in the heat of battle so,..."
Cpl. Smith: "Still am, ma'am."
Cutie: "Yes, of course, but it's all over. (Nervous giggle). Except here on Capitol Hill, of course. Corporal Smith, I wonder if you know the gender, race and ethnicity of the group that put the flag up. In other words, did that group 'look like America?' "
Corporal Smith: "Look like America? They are Americans, ma'am. United States Marines."
Cutie: "Any females?"
Cpl. Smith: "No, ma'am."
Cutie: "Any African Americans?"
Cpl. Smith: "I don't know, ma'am. But there is an Indian in Easy Company."
Cutie: "You mean Native American?"
Cpl. Smith: "Whatever, ma'am, I've got to cut out. My outfit is moving on and we've got a lot to do."
Cutie: "And we've got a lot to do here too. Spring training has started and the sun is shining brightly in Florida. But first this word from our sponsors."
Historical note: In one of the bloodiest battles of World War II, when it was said "uncommon courage was a common virtue," 6,000 Marines were killed and 18,000 wounded. Some 21,000 Japanese were killed. The island itself is still barren and only a handful of people live on it. But after it was secured by the Marines, B-29s made over 2,200 emergency landings on it, saving the lives of more than 24,000 crewmen. AP photographer Joe Rosenthal won a Pulitzer Prize for the flag-raising photo. Of the six men in the photo, three were buried in that black volcanic ash, one came out on a stretcher. Only two walked off the island.
As most of you know Zell Miller is a Democratic U.S. senator from Georgia.IACOJ Member
10-14-2004, 03:40 PM #85
I guess this is working?
Insurgent Alliance Is Fraying In Fallujah Locals,
Fearing Invasion, Turn Against Foreign Arabs
By Karl Vick
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, October 13, 2004; Page A01
BAGHDAD, Oct. 12 -- Local insurgents in the city of Fallujah are turning against the foreign fighters who have been their allies in the rebellion that has held the U.S. military at bay in parts of Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland, according to Fallujah residents, insurgent leaders and Iraqi and U.S. officials.
Relations are deteriorating as local fighters negotiate to avoid a U.S.-led military offensive against Fallujah, while foreign fighters press to attack Americans and their Iraqi supporters. The disputes have spilled over into harsh words and sporadic violence, with Fallujans killing at least five foreign Arabs in recent weeks, according to witnesses.
"If the Arabs will not leave willingly, we will make them leave by force," said Jamal Adnan, a taxi driver who left his house in Fallujah's Shurta neighborhood a month ago after the house next door was bombed by U.S. aircraft targeting foreign insurgents.
Located 35 miles west of Baghdad in Iraq's Sunni Triangle, Fallujah has been outside the control of Iraqi authorities and U.S. military forces since April, when a siege by U.S. Marines was lifted and Iraqi security forces were given responsibility for the city's security. Local and foreign insurgents gradually gained control, and Iraqi and U.S. officials say Fallujah has become a principal source of instability in the country.
U.S. and Iraqi authorities together have insisted that if Fallujah is to avoid an all-out assault aimed at regaining control of the city, foreign fighters must be ejected. Several local leaders of the insurgency say they, too, want to expel the foreigners, whom they scorn as terrorists. They heap particular contempt on Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian whose Monotheism and Jihad group has asserted responsibility for many of the deadliest attacks across Iraq, including videotaped beheadings.
"He is mentally deranged, has distorted the image of the resistance and defamed it. I believe his end is near," Abu Abdalla Dulaimy, military commander of the First Army of Mohammad, said.
One of the foreign guerrillas killed by local fighters was Abu Abdallah Suri, a Syrian and a prominent member of Zarqawi's group. Suri's body was discovered Sunday. He was shot in the head and chest while being chased by a carload of tribesmen, according to a security guard who said he witnessed the killing.
Residents say foreign fighters recently have taken to gathering in Fallujah's grimy commercial district after being denied shelter in residential neighborhoods because their presence so often attracts U.S. warplanes. The airstrikes and the turmoil in the streets have spurred perhaps half of the city's 300,000 residents to flee, residents and officials said.
U.S. aircraft hit Fallujah twice on Tuesday. An airstrike just after midnight destroyed the city's best-known restaurant, a kebab house that a military statement said was used as an arms depot, citing "numerous secondary explosions." A second strike at 4 a.m. destroyed "a known terrorist safe house" in the northeast of the city, the statement said.
Adnan, the taxi driver who moved his panicked wife and four children to another town, said attitudes toward the foreign fighters have changed dramatically since they poured into Fallujah after the Marines' siege ended in April. "We were deceived by them," he said. "We welcomed them first because we thought they came to support us, but now everything is clear."
Among the tensions dividing the locals and the foreigners is religion. People in Fallujah, known as the city of mosques, have chafed at the stern brand of Islam that the newcomers brought with them. The non-Iraqi Arabs berated women who did not cover themselves head-to-toe in black -- very rare in Iraq -- and violently opposed local customs rooted in the town's more mystical religious tradition.
One Fallujah man killed a Kuwaiti who said he could not pray at the grave of an ancestor.
Residents said the overwhelming majority of Fallujah's people also have been repulsed by the atrocities that Zarqawi and other extremists have made commonplace in Iraq. The foreign militants are thought to produce the car bombs that now explode around Iraq several times a day, and Zarqawi's organization has asserted responsibility for the slayings of several Westerners, some of which were shown in videos posted on the Internet.
There was another digital display of a beheading on Tuesday. The victim apparently was a Shiite Muslim Arab, and the group that said it posted the video identified itself as the Ansar al-Sunna Army.
Abu Barra, commander of a group of native insurgents called the Allahu Akbar Battalions, said: "Please do not mix the cards. There is an Iraqi resistance, a genuine resistance, and there are other groups trying to settle accounts. There is also terror targeting Iraqis.
10-14-2004, 11:43 PM #86Originally posted by VinnieB
Scfire...how is it that all of us think alike and we are naieve? There you go again...onto the European experience in Arab countries....I pointed out were you are wrong....Its a matter of history...NOT opinion. I don't know what your major in college was but it sure wasn't military history or forign policy. The similarities are that they all are a Guerilla war...and the most pressing factors of those conflicts are not even CLOSE to the US experiance in Iraq....You still have not yet answered on your Guerilla War...and Motivation not relevant theory. Ok...how about this....IN YOUR WORDS...post the similarities....fasion it in the way I debunked your post in regards to the French/Algerian Question. No more Opinion Posts...just facts....SHOW me the similarites. Things are very tough there now....but the attacks prior to our and the Iraqi elections were expected....this campaign is a chapter right out of the Guerrilla warfare textbook....but what I do not see happening is our tactics changing in the next 19 days....only after the elections will we see a change....even if Bush is reelected or not...the man has nothing to lose....His admin has even stated that nothing will happen in fallujah or Sadr until after the elections.....remember the saying..."No Struggle, No Progress"...Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
10-15-2004, 12:32 AM #87Originally posted by scfire86
You proved that you are only willing to not see the parallels. That's fine. I'm one of those crazy liberals that believes you have a right to your wrong opinion.
....thought soIACOJ Member
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