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  1. #61
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by EFD840


    Actually George, it seems there's a whole set of rules:

    You also forgot the Carl Cameron Rule:

    While assigned from the Fair and Balanced Faux Jazeera News, it is okay to make up quotes and news items while covering a Presidential race.

    If you want to see someone giving Bush Lewisinky treatment, click on the video link here. I especially like the part where he tries to tell Bush that he not only played college hoops, but that he was an enforcer. You can look at the guy and know he hasn't been hit by anything harder than a chocolate donut. The only time he was sent on the court was to take a charge foul so as not to endanger the star players.

    Quick Time player is needed to run the video.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."


  2. #62
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    While assigned from the Fair and Balanced Faux Jazeera News, it is okay to make up quotes and news items while covering a Presidential race.
    And what happened to his stories? Fox yanked them and apologized.

    USA Today has a pretty good story here. . By the way, the qoutes were silly little things like "don't my cuticles look good." That's a long, long way from forged military orders.

  3. #63
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by EFD840


    And what happened to his stories? Fox yanked them and apologized.
    But it was obvious they didn't mean it.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #64
    MembersZone Subscriber Firefighter1219's Avatar
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    No one here except you.
    Uh, did you forget what I typed earlier? Or did you just selectively read it?

    Does that make you feel better Norm? I wouldn't want to hurt your delicate feelings.
    No one here is named Norm. Try again. You're the only one on here that seems to have delicate feelings.

    But it was obvious they didn't mean it.
    Doesn't matter. They took responsibility for the mistake, and took the apprpriate actions. Much like the Democrats need to do now.

    Good point. sc, did anyone ever teach you that you should be accountable for your own actions? "sc, why did you hit Joey?" "Because he hit me first." Right... You can't keep blaming the RNC for the ad the Dems are using against them. I'll admit, the ad with Max Clealand was in bad taste, and it probably shouldn't have been done, but at least it's attacking one person instead of an entire population.
    Interesting. Once again, you try to defend actions by saying that someone else did it first. If you do something wrong, be a man; suck it up and take responsibility. Someone else doing it first doesn't make what you did in rebuttle any less wrong. Wrong is wrong.
    No rebuttle? Is it becasue you know that I am right?
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  5. #65
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    From Bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."

    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:

    Population of counties won by:
    Gore = 127 million
    Bush = 143 million

    Square miles of land won by:
    Gore = 580,000
    Bush = 2,427,000

    States won by:
    Gore = 20
    Bush = 30

    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
    Gore = 13.2
    Bush = 2.1

    Professor Olson adds:

    "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare . . ."

    Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and "complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 10-23-2004 at 09:06 AM.

  6. #66
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Since we're making comparisons to ancient civilizations, how's this one?

    And you may want to check here. Seems your internet urban legend has a few holes in it. I never ceased to be amazed at what conservatives believe to be true when something just drops into their email mailboxes. Here's one piece of advice. Stay away from the letters claiming to be some Middle Eastern or African prince needing your help to get millions out of his war torn country.


    George W. Bush: Commodus Reborn
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Editorial by Shane Cory
    October 12, 2004

    In 180 A.D., Rome faced one of its greatest challenges as Marcus Aurelius Commodus Antoninus (Commodus) succeeded his father in ruling the Empire . Due to his actions during a 12 year reign, he became arguably known as Rome's worst emperor.

    Unlike his father who was thought to be kind and genuinely caring, Commodus was violent, short-tempered and thought to be literally insane.

    Commodus' violent nature attracted him to death sports. He liked to play warrior, dressing up as either a Gladiator or Hercules in order to fight and kill opponents armed only with wooden defenses (while some say they were made of lead). Comparing himself to the hero Hercules, Commodus claimed to have killed thousands of men in combat.

    In order to win the support of the people, Commodus gave large sums of money away to the masses on several occasions, demonstrating a complete lack of fiscally responsibility.

    In protecting himself and his actions, the young emperor kept the Roman Senate and others at bay through the use of the Praetorian Guard, a special unit of men loyal not to Rome but to the emperor.

    His foreign policy could only be described as erratic. Commodus created a peace treaty with Germanic tribes shortly after taking the throne yet waged war with the Germans regardless. He was also well known to take credit for partial victories in battle, requiring the Senate to Honor him for his accomplishments.

    While he played Gladiator and demanded to be treated as a God, Commodus left the affairs of Rome up to corrupt men who pillaged the Empire, sharing their spoils of rule with their constantly vacationing emperor.

    The similarities between a Commodus and our American president are striking for those willing to take an unbiased glance into the actions of the Bush administration.

    In 2001, following the footsteps of his father, George W. Bush was sworn in as the 43rd President of the United States. In the opinion of many, he is well on his way in becoming one of the worst presidents in American history.

    While Bush shares some of his father's traits such as his difficulty coherently speaking in public, he does contrast with his father's calm and affable nature by being known as short-tempered and highly emotional. Some would argue that due to his record of putting men and women to death as Texas Governor and at times mocking them, that George Bush is a violent man.

    While spending a great amount of time on his Crawford ranch, Bush drives around in his pickup truck, slings chainsaws and generally plays cowboy while the media films his experiences. The president is also known for his infamous carrier landing when he unnecessarily dressed up as a fighter pilot in order to address the nation. It can be easily concluded that Bush enjoys his cowboy persona and the ability to play the warrior's role when given the chance.

    Shortly after taking office, Bush enacted a retroactive tax break resulting in cash being given to the American masses. While this won the support of many people, a great deal of others questioned the fiscal responsibility of his actions. Throughout his term he continued to offer and propose further largesse despite the highest national debt in the history of the nation.

    In protecting and defending his actions, Bush is cushioned by individuals who attack any political opponents who rise against the president while keeping the masses in check and on the side of their president. Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Ailes and others effectively serve as Bush's Praetorian Guard. Although the actions of the individuals above could place them in league with the later Praetorians who literally sold the emperor's seat to the highest bidder (material for a completely different column), they are at the moment committed to their president over the good of the country.

    The foreign policy of George W. Bush, specifically what is now known as the Bush Doctrine, defies not only logic but also the history of the United States. The recent not-so-shocking revelation that Iraq possessed no weapons of mass destruction proved to the world that the Bush Doctrine is flawed. Despite the glaring mistake, the doctrine is still defended by the president and his Praetorians. Additionally, Bush is prone to claim partial victories such as his May 2003 speech in which he declared that, "In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." Bush also commonly states that "our nation and the world are safer" in stark contrast to the daily bombings and violence throughout the world.

    Bush has admittedly surrounded himself with men and women of experience and power and obviously defers matters of the nation to their judgments. These individuals, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Rove, etc., drive the agenda of the nation while some actively profit from the decisions they make as members of the Bush administration.

    As Commodus had the ultimate power as emperor and could flagrantly mock and dismay the Roman government and his country, a difference only of subtlety remains between America's current president and one of Rome's worst emperors.

    History does, from time to time, repeat itself without being evident until it is too late and a wrong is repeated. Thankfully, the American people can choose to end this recycling of history on November 2nd. Unfortunately, a great deal of damage has already been done that will reverberate for generations.

    As part of Rome's recovery after the corrupt reign of Commodus, the Senate passed damnatio memoriae which is a damnation of memory. They Romans figuratively tossed all traces of Commodus into the memory hole. Just as Rome had to recover from the reign of Commodus, America must do the same in the coming years by rejecting forever the flawed doctrines, ruling arrogance and international ignorance of the Bush administration.

    Shane Cory is the editor of the Washington Dispatch.
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  7. #67
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Not that it matters much to anyone outside my town as it's only a local race but, the local Dem. party has taken a new approach on character attacks that I have never seen in my 20+ years of local politics. It's a new low.

    Why can't they just argue the issues?
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  8. #68
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Not that it matters much to anyone outside my town as it's only a local race but, the local Dem. party has taken a new approach on character attacks that I have never seen in my 20+ years of local politics. It's a new low.

    Why can't they just argue the issues?
    Same here in OC. Except its the local GOP making character attacks on the Dems.

    It's not a new low here. It's the way they have done business since I moved here in the mid 70's.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #69
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare . . ."
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

  10. #70
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    The post was given to me through my daughter, whose history professor had brought it up during a class at San Diego State. I found it interesting that this would be brought up in a college history class for discussion. She had asked me if I had ever read Tyler. Although I had only read one book by Tyler unrelated to the statement, we discussed the concept within that statement. The statement in and of itself is a true analogy in my belief. Throughout history, the more dependent individuals became on the government, the more it seemed to fall from democratic representation and into dictatorship and sometimes anarchy (governments cannot and should not be the end all). As an ex-history teacher, I told her that I personally believe the analogy to be true in itís theory and it may have some inaccuracies but was close in it's assertion of the steps leading away from representative government and the steps toward total dependency, which destroys self-motivation to achieve a higher level of non-dependence on the governing body. The more control a government has over peoples lives the less effective it is. Do I personally believe that the analogy and its theory are correct, yes I do.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 10-23-2004 at 09:04 AM.

  11. #71
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FireLt1951
    As an ex-history teacher, I told her that I personally believe the analogy to be true in itís theory and it may have some inaccuracies but was close in it's assertion of the steps leading away from representative government and the steps toward total dependency, which destroys self-motivation to achieve a higher level of non-dependence on the governing body.
    Other than your own opinion, what factual basis do you have to support your theory?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #72
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Other than your own opinion, what factual basis do you have to support your theory?
    History.

    The fall of the Roman empire, in part, has something to do with the attempt to turn itself into a preliminary socialist government.

    No nation lasts as the dominating power for very long. A few hundred years is the most that I can recall any nation lasting at teh precipace of power in the world, China, France, Rome, Great Britain, Babylon, Egypt, Greece, The Ottoman Empire, and several others.

    Nations with a socialist regime have a pretty stagnant economy. Much of Europe, which is a predominantly socialist run continent, have stagnant economies, labor issues, high cost of living, government as a cure for everything, higher unemployment rates than the United States, oppression of individual liberties, and other issues. Issues that will befall the United States as we march on the way to our little socialist meccah. Socialist states are able to pay for their eutopias with much of the money that it gets from gutting its military forces. I will not sacrifice my personal safety and the safety of my fellow citizens for failed government intitiative that rob us, as citizens, of our constitutional and individual rights and liberties.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  13. #73
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie


    History.

    The fall of the Roman empire, in part, has something to do with the attempt to turn itself into a preliminary socialist government.

    No nation lasts as the dominating power for very long. A few hundred years is the most that I can recall any nation lasting at teh precipace of power in the world, China, France, Rome, Great Britain, Babylon, Egypt, Greece, The Ottoman Empire, and several others.

    I'm glad I still have bladder control at this point in my life. Those empires fell for any number of reasons other than the ones you state. But if you want to believe that, I'm one of those crazy liberals who believes you have that right.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #74
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I said in part. Nice to see you are a true study of history. I only stated that the socialist ideology partially affected Rome.

    As for the others it was a simple matter of how no country remains at the top for long, we have been on a downturn for years. You really should ensure that you read my posts better, but then again I should expect nothing but for you to draw inferences from posts that are not there, you have done it for months and you'll continue to do so. As usual you did not address the crux of the post though, the failure of socialism.

    You may now lose control of your bladder.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    The only thing that he is a study at is liberal talking points and demogoguery.

    It only stands to reason that a socialist economy is a flat, stagnant economy. It is the entrepeuer that drives a growing economy. In a socialist setup, there is no personal incentive to develop anything or work hard.

    Did you ever notice that socialism or communism is almost always accompanied by a dictatorship?

  16. #76
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Liberalism=Socialism=Communism .

    Very little separates them from each other, and the next step is listed above for each stage.

    In all cases, individual rights, liberties, and the Constitution would most likely suffer.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  17. #77
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaSharkie
    As for the others it was a simple matter of how no country remains at the top for long, we have been on a downturn for years.

    You may now lose control of your bladder.
    Based on what? Economics? Military might? What is your premise for this?

    The US is still the preeminent economic force in the world. Even with all the new debt Bush is saddling future generations to pay off. We spend more money on defense than the rest of the world combined.

    Are you talking about morality? Based upon whose morals? The biggest reprobates I've ever met have been conservatives. Devout religious conservatives at that.

    Are you just one of those wistful nostalgic folks who thinks about the good ole days? The days are better now than they were then. But then again I'm one of those optimistic liberals. Maybe I'm naive. I should be a doom and gloom conservative like you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  18. #78
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    Based on what? Economics? Military might? What is your premise for this?

    The US is still the preeminent economic force in the world. Even with all the new debt Bush is saddling future generations to pay off. We spend more money on defense than the rest of the world combined.

    Are you talking about morality? Based upon whose morals? The biggest reprobates I've ever met have been conservatives. Devout religious conservatives at that.

    Are you just one of those wistful nostalgic folks who thinks about the good ole days? The days are better now than they were then. But then again I'm one of those optimistic liberals. Maybe I'm naive. I should be a doom and gloom conservative like you.
    The National Debt that is being incurred during wartime is not going to hinder our long term economic health. Every US wartime modern economy has had a large debt. Every post-war economy has had a dramatic upturn. That is the nature of a wartime economy.

    Ahhh, morality. No right or wrong. No black and white. Just what's right for YOU. Soory dude, that is BS. Morality is not bad and there is a very common ground of what is right and wrong. That is the problem with government and education today...nobody wants to say "You are wrong" because we might hurt someone's feelings. After this election, when President Bush wins, I am praying that we can move closer to clear "right and wrong".

    The "biggest reprobates" you have ever met have been conservatives? I don't know what circles you travel in, but that is one of the biggest pieces of crap I have ever heard. Since you are big on evidence, why don't you give us some?

    If any group in this election year is "doom and gloom", it is the libs. It has been stated many times that for your platform to be succesful, bad things must happen to the US. Kerry paints the picture that there are soup lines and seniors eating cat food and a depression around the corner. That is utter nonsense and you have basically admitted it. The conservative belief is based on this country being the greatest and strongest in the world. It is based on the fundamental goodness of the people. Remember, no country has ever been so strong and used that strength for more good than the US.

  19. #79
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    They are now calling in the international reinforcements for their hate speech. From the UK Guardian:

    On November 2, the entire civilised world will be praying, praying Bush loses. And Sod's law dictates he'll probably win, thereby disproving the existence of God once and for all. The world will endure four more years of idiocy, arrogance and unwarranted bloodshed, with no benevolent deity to watch over and save us. John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr - where are you now that we need you?

    You can read the entire disgusting column at:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguide/c...333748,00.html

    And conservatives are full of hate?

  20. #80
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

    The National Debt that is being incurred during wartime is not going to hinder our long term economic health. Every US wartime modern economy has had a large debt. Every post-war economy has had a dramatic upturn. That is the nature of a wartime economy.

    Pretty much BS on all fronts. Contrary to conservative thinking, war is not good for the economy. And if you look at economic indicators, post war economies are typically recessionary immediately following the conflict.



    The "biggest reprobates" you have ever met have been conservatives? I don't know what circles you travel in, but that is one of the biggest pieces of crap I have ever heard. Since you are big on evidence, why don't you give us some?

    Freely admit my observation is pretty much anecdotal from living in an enviornment and locale that is dominated by conservatives. But here is a good article that offers statistical proof. Of course you won't like it since Krugman is viewed as one those members of the 'liberal' media. True Blue Americans


    If any group in this election year is "doom and gloom", it is the libs. It has been stated many times that for your platform to be succesful, bad things must happen to the US. Kerry paints the picture that there are soup lines and seniors eating cat food and a depression around the corner. That is utter nonsense and you have basically admitted it. The conservative belief is based on this country being the greatest and strongest in the world. It is based on the fundamental goodness of the people. Remember, no country has ever been so strong and used that strength for more good than the US.

    More bovine scatology. Cheney has been running around predicting more terrorist attacks if Kerry is elected. If that isn't preying upon doom and gloom and fear what is?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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