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  1. #21
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    IF YOU USE ONE OF THESE IN AN OXYGEN DEFICIENT, SUPER HEATED OR IDKH ATMOSPHERE YOU WILL DIE! IF YOU GET MY DRIFT.
    I don't see your point.... If you're bottle runs empty (The only time you'd use this product....) you're going to die as well.... So what's the big deal?? I don't think anyone is saying you can pop one of these things onto the front of your CABA and walk out as happy as larry.... But I think the point is it's better than nothing....


  2. #22
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    So what's the big deal?
    The "big deal" is that a piece of crap like this will provide someone like you with a false sense of security. The money can spend in better ways.

    But go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and use it. Rest in Peace, dude.

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    Survivair has has the "SMOKEATER" for a couple years. they probably had the sole rights to it in the beginning, now it is available to other manufacturers.

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    Even our Surivair rep has told us not to get the SmokeEaters. Yes, they probably work, but isn't it better to not be in that situation in the first place instead of relying on a "can"?


    They say it's good for 15minutes, than what? Does it stop letting air through or do you need to carry a stopwatch? Is that 15minutes standing still or 15minutes under stress? Wouldn't that time really be based on how much air you're moving through it and filtering? Just like a 30minute bottle which we all know goes faster on some people, wouldn't this have the same limitations?
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    The "big deal" is that a piece of crap like this will provide someone like you with a false sense of security. The money can spend in better ways.

    But go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and use it. Rest in Peace, dude.
    Thats exactly what it will do - Instead of following a strict accountability system guys will push the limits because they have a back up to get out. Im with you on the false sense of security. I have a training cannister on my desk and that is where it wil stay!

    Our department has never had a low air problem, our accountability is strictly enforced and air packs are certified annually and checked 2x/ week. Their are a lot more ways to train to be safe rather than spend money on a gimmick!

  6. #26
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    We finally, thanks to fire grant, have $ to purchase modern SCBA. Nothing we have now meets anyones current standards so I'm sure OSHA would have a cow. However OSHA has seems to have a propensity for conniption fits over anything at anytime.

    The submarine service has been using absorbant materials since before WWII to reduce the level of dangerous gases to make atmosphere breathable. O2 is what it is but scrub out the crap to leave breathable air. This canister apparently works in the same manner but on an individual level.

    I found a review on line for these that mentions price of $190ea. Seems a bit high, like everything else for fire service. I'm more interested effectiveness. Dupont is a corp that has a high degree of equity with me. That's why I went looking for info. That Dupont developed a product with the objective of violating misc. government standard, regulation, opinions etc if a bit of a stretch.

    Unfortunately as late as 2004 I believe we still have guys running out of air while in a structure. We watch our air, exit at the appropriate time. But get lost on the way out? trapped? Whatever. Or has this problem/issue gone away? When I was in the infantry I carried an M16, I also carried an automatic. The .45 or M9 was not there to use and was not a substitute for a real weapon (or was the M16 for that matter). But smart guy/planner had a backup for when things went seriously wrong. I also carried a 10" pigsticker and a folder/hideaway. Who needs knife in the modern hightech Army? Things go wrong and a backup plan is in the smartguy's inventory.

    SCBA bottle goes dry today, you're lost/trapped what you gonna do? What is the backup plan? Die in place while holding breath? This EVACpro looks like a potential option.

    I emailed Dupont requesting they have someone tech savy on this subject come to this thread for Q/A. If someone shows up please just keep the "you're trying to sell something" stuff in your pocket and ask your questions.

  7. #27
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    That Dupont developed a product with the objective of violating misc. government standard, regulation, opinions etc if a bit of a stretch.
    You did the research. You tell me. How does this piece of equipment fit into an OSHA compliant Respiratory Protection Plan?

    Better question, with the problems that your department seems to having, does your department have an OSHA compliant Respiratory Protection Program?

    I will be shocked if anyone from DuPont shows up here. But, it will be interesting if they do.

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    DuPont is actually a very fire-department/emergency response friendly corporation, at least in my dealings with them, which has been on the hazardous materials side. I was never questioning their corporate integrity. I just feel that given the information I have available about the test data and the specifications of the product, I think the money would be far better spent on something else (training, better PPE, SCBA etc.). It would not surprise me if DuPont did come on to answer some questions about the product.

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    You did the research. You tell me. How does this piece of equipment fit into an OSHA compliant Respiratory Protection Plan?

    Better question, with the problems that your department seems to having, does your department have an OSHA compliant Respiratory Protection Program?

    I will be shocked if anyone from DuPont shows up here. But, it will be interesting if they do.
    Agreed

    George you have lots of great stuff to contribute. And your willingness to twist a knot in the knickers of some of the nannies here is appreciated. But tell me, do you thing a very ligitimate well respected corp. (with hordes of nanny lawyers looking over the shoulder of every engineer/marketing guy) is going to develop/intro/sell a such a product? Dupont? I'll give them the benfit of the doubt.

    OSHA is not even on the priority list for concerns. We are VERY pleased to have modern SCBA (coming) and turnout gear that meet current established standards. We did not verify AT ALL that each vendor did/does in fact please NFPA, OSHA or anyone else. We looked at the well know establish major brands. Picked features/prices that worked for our funds available. Ordered. We need SCBA fit test and training; a physical evaluation (and training) program; water supply - additional tanker capacity, water storage, dry hydrant and pressurized hydrant project; additional (2nd) pumper; larger/modern station; prevention/safety program; preplan program; FF1 completion; AND AN ISO RATING.

    OSHA anything is not on the radar screen. Do what a reasonable man would do. Outside the box projects using grant $/local raised $/DOD surplus, and $12000/yr budget. You know the story about the guy running with a tray full of eggs?

    You hold 3 or 4 very important eggs in your right hand to make sure they don't get dropped/broken. Carry on a tray in your other hand, all the other eggs some idiot gave you, as you run. Every so often some SOB reaches out and hits your hand as you go by. If he hits your right arm you'll likely not drop those very importand eggs because you're watching/holding on to them tightly. If he hits your left arm some of those misc eggs are going to fall off and break. It may turn out that the egg was actually REALLY important or may suddenly become important, and should have been in your right hand. Adjust and move out. Now the other option (not infrequently occurs) is to put ALL the eggs on the tray on your lap and sit down in a swivel chair (then wait for that SOB to come up and kick the hell out of bottom of your tray). If you have multiple full time paid guys taking care of things they may hold onto the tray (it's now a bucket) but if it is just a couple vol. you have to hold onto those important eggs. OSHA is an on the tray item.

  10. #30
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    Originally posted by neiowa


    Agreed

    George you have lots of great stuff to contribute. And your willingness to twist a knot in the knickers of some of the nannies here is appreciated. But tell me, do you thing a very ligitimate well respected corp. (with hordes of nanny lawyers looking over the shoulder of every engineer/marketing guy) is going to develop/intro/sell a such a product? Dupont? I'll give them the benfit of the doubt.

    OSHA is not even on the priority list for concerns. We are VERY pleased to have modern SCBA (coming) and turnout gear that meet current established standards. We did not verify AT ALL that each vendor did/does in fact please NFPA, OSHA or anyone else. We looked at the well know establish major brands. Picked features/prices that worked for our funds available. Ordered. We need SCBA fit test and training; a physical evaluation (and training) program; water supply - additional tanker capacity, water storage, dry hydrant and pressurized hydrant project; additional (2nd) pumper; larger/modern station; prevention/safety program; preplan program; FF1 completion; AND AN ISO RATING.

    OSHA anything is not on the radar screen. Do what a reasonable man would do. Outside the box projects using grant $/local raised $/DOD surplus, and $12000/yr budget. You know the story about the guy running with a tray full of eggs?

    You hold 3 or 4 very important eggs in your right hand to make sure they don't get dropped/broken. Carry on a tray in your other hand, all the other eggs some idiot gave you, as you run. Every so often some SOB reaches out and hits your hand as you go by. If he hits your right arm you'll likely not drop those very importand eggs because you're watching/holding on to them tightly. If he hits your left arm some of those misc eggs are going to fall off and break. It may turn out that the egg was actually REALLY important or may suddenly become important, and should have been in your right hand. Adjust and move out. Now the other option (not infrequently occurs) is to put ALL the eggs on the tray on your lap and sit down in a swivel chair (then wait for that SOB to come up and kick the hell out of bottom of your tray). If you have multiple full time paid guys taking care of things they may hold onto the tray (it's now a bucket) but if it is just a couple vol. you have to hold onto those important eggs. OSHA is an on the tray item.
    I don't have time to answer this in detail right now. I just have a few things to say.

    1. I do not think DuPont is selling a product knowingly in violation of any regulations. But I have a hard time believing that this product is being marketed to any industry that MUST comply with OSHA regulations in terms of a RPP.

    2. You scare me. This may come as a shock, but fires burn just as hot in Rural Iowa as they do in Newark, NJ. OSHA not on the radar screen? Do you even read what you write? Every FD; paid, vol or whatever, has no choice but to comply with these regulations. You simply cannot be an agency that knowingly sends people into possible IDLH atmospheres and NOT COMPLY! "We don't have the money" is not a defense. If you get someone hurt or killed, or you are audited by whoever enforces Iowa's OSHA regs., you are done.

    3. If one of your members were to be killed, the fines that would be levied against your FD would far exceed any possible expenditure you could make in complying with the regs. The civil lawsuits alone may (repeat may) cost all of your members your homes.

    4. If you are advocating non-compliance with mandatory regulations because "We are only volunteer" or "We don't have the money", your credibility is shot, the credibility of your department is shot and you should know that, now that you have posted this for the world to see, you are in for a heap of trouble if the Iowa regulatory folks get wind of this.

    5. Before you ask the answer is YES. It would be better if you shut down the FD or didn't go inside. The lives of your memebers are far more important.

    Sometimes I cannot believe what I read on here. Honest to God. Not on the radar screen.

  11. #31
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    AND AN ISO RATING.
    Just a personal note, I'd rather work on OSHA compliance than anything for ISO.
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    Hello, I'm a product manager from Brookdale (a DuPont company). We're the guys that developed and manufactured the EVACpro. I was sent an email by one of you guys about joining in. I am an ex-firefighter with the city and ex-rescue specialist (falling on a house fire can put you out of the job) Any one have a real problem with me helping to clear up some misconceptions about this technology?

    Des

  13. #33
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    Originally posted by Desmond
    Hello, I'm a product manager from Brookdale (a DuPont company). We're the guys that developed and manufactured the EVACpro. I was sent an email by one of you guys about joining in. I am an ex-firefighter with the city and ex-rescue specialist (falling on a house fire can put you out of the job) Any one have a real problem with me helping to clear up some misconceptions about this technology?

    Des
    I certainly don't.

    But here are two questions that need no technologival answer.

    1. Is this unit designed for emergency services, hazardous materials, IDLH atmospheres or confined space entry?

    2. If it is, how does the use of an air-purifying respirator correlate with an OSHA compliant Respiratory Protection Plan.

    Two simple answers, no technological gobbledy-ggok.

    Thanks

  14. #34
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    I certainly don't.

    But here are two questions that need no technologival answer.

    1. Is this unit designed for emergency services, hazardous materials, IDLH atmospheres or confined space entry?

    2. If it is, how does the use of an air-purifying respirator correlate with an OSHA compliant Respiratory Protection Plan.

    Two simple answers, no technological gobbledy-ggok.

    Thanks
    Hello?

  15. #35
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    Hey,

    I am with George on the OSHA thing. For years firefighters around here were taught the same thing. Because we are volunteers we don't have to follow OSHA. Well they realized now that since they have to carry workers comp insurance because it is state regulations. If anyone gets hurt and it is found out the following the OSHA and State guidlines could have prevented the injury the cliam will be denied. Just recently the state said from now on no more facial hair except mustache. This was a little problem that some are taking chances with. The best thing to do for safety, health and money is to get the correct stuff first instead of having to go back and get it. You can get all the right stuff if you just look. The department I am on got a grant a few years about and was able to equip us with 8 new Drager's with one spear each pack. 30 sets of NEW Quaker Fire Clothing(helmet, gloves, hood, boots, pants, coat), a new Engine, and hoses etc too. I think the two grants total were about 190,000. The 100,000 being for the engine and 80,000 for equipment.

    Also can someone tell me more about HOO (Helping Our Own). My chief would like to hear some information from peolle who have used them.

    thanks
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  16. #36
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    George:

    I will try and talk to the point but complex questions (like the ones asked) deserve more than the yes or no answers you may want, so here goes:

    Is it designed for emergency services? Yes it is. The filter pack is identical to the certified product used for mobile service in Europe and subject to rough handling testing by independent labs (ie. INSPEC) Not only that, and as an aside, as an ex firefighter I know how hard the guys and gals can be on equipment, (hey it’s a job that can be brutal on “stuff” sometimes) the filter element is double dampened and suspended to give it outstanding shock absorbency.

    Now on the confined space question: the EVACpro™ is not meant to replace supplied air, it is to be used in the event that, in a structural fire, the firefighter experiences an “out of air situation” and for escape only. Since it is not supplied air it is also not meant for confined space rescue.

    Now on to the question about regulatory standards. There are no NIOSH, OSHA or NFPA standards around filter based products used to escape from a fire. If you look at your options according to OSHA, if your supplied air respirator fails then it is another supplied air respirator you should use. The regulatory organizations simply do not discuss an option for escape from smoke and fire gas other than supplied air. This however does not address the real world problems and dangers that firefighters can find themselves in.

    On the other side of the equation though there is a European standard addressing fire escape filter respirators. This standard is EN 403 and we have based the testing protocol for the EVACpro™ on this standard. The EVACpro™ has been further validated in live fire tests done by two North American training centers. The Nassau County Fire Service Training Academy in New York and in Canada at the JIBC Fire Training Academy. Part of the gas testing protocol calls for a challenge of 10,000 ppm (parts per million) of CO (enough to kill you in minutes), Hydrogen Cyanide at 400ppm, Acrolein at 100 ppm, and Hydrogen Chloride at 1,000 ppm.. So the short answer is yes it has been tested to levels well past IDLH. The EVACpro™ will provide at least 15 minutes protection at these high concentrations.

    The EVACpro™ line of emergency escape respirators is a recently invented product and as such it can take years for standards to catch up to the technological advances in equipment. Many devices including the PASS and even helmets have been used in the fire service prior to standards development.

    I’ve used the EVACpro™ in several live burns: it works!

    If anyone would like to talk to me directly please feel free to call me on our toll free number at 1-800-459-3822 and press 6 in the automated system to get my extension.

    All the best

    Des

  17. #37
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    Some great points have been brought up here.

    One thing that is important to remember, that has been pointed out, is that if you are in an oxygen deficient atmosphere this will not magically generate oxygen. It might scrub some nasties from it, but it won't give you fresh air.

    Is there any value to having this on structural fire attack? I don't know. With the short shelf life, I just don't see it being remotely cost effective. Not to mention, do products like these encourage unsafe behavior?

    To me, it's more important to focus on getting out before you are in a no-air situation, OR calling for help the moment you realize you MIGHT not be able to get out. Bigger bottles, higher pressures, HUDs, RITs, safety/survival training, intimate knowledge of SCBA... I think these ideas have more merit for protecting FF's.

    To me, a product like this is better for civilians caught in a high-rise fire or something, not as a safety net for those intentionally entering IDLH environments.

    It's great to have an informative post from a product rep.
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    Thanks for your input Desmond, again, agree with Resq14, but unless civilians are gonna be buying SCBA masks, I don't think they are gonna be able to use it.

  19. #39
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    Originally posted by Desmond
    George:

    I will try and talk to the point but complex questions (like the ones asked) deserve more than the yes or no answers you may want, so here goes:

    Is it designed for emergency services? Yes it is. The filter pack is identical to the certified product used for mobile service in Europe and subject to rough handling testing by independent labs (ie. INSPEC) Not only that, and as an aside, as an ex firefighter I know how hard the guys and gals can be on equipment, (hey it’s a job that can be brutal on “stuff” sometimes) the filter element is double dampened and suspended to give it outstanding shock absorbency.

    Now on the confined space question: the EVACpro™ is not meant to replace supplied air, it is to be used in the event that, in a structural fire, the firefighter experiences an “out of air situation” and for escape only. Since it is not supplied air it is also not meant for confined space rescue.

    Now on to the question about regulatory standards. There are no NIOSH, OSHA or NFPA standards around filter based products used to escape from a fire. If you look at your options according to OSHA, if your supplied air respirator fails then it is another supplied air respirator you should use. The regulatory organizations simply do not discuss an option for escape from smoke and fire gas other than supplied air. This however does not address the real world problems and dangers that firefighters can find themselves in.

    On the other side of the equation though there is a European standard addressing fire escape filter respirators. This standard is EN 403 and we have based the testing protocol for the EVACpro™ on this standard. The EVACpro™ has been further validated in live fire tests done by two North American training centers. The Nassau County Fire Service Training Academy in New York and in Canada at the JIBC Fire Training Academy. Part of the gas testing protocol calls for a challenge of 10,000 ppm (parts per million) of CO (enough to kill you in minutes), Hydrogen Cyanide at 400ppm, Acrolein at 100 ppm, and Hydrogen Chloride at 1,000 ppm.. So the short answer is yes it has been tested to levels well past IDLH. The EVACpro™ will provide at least 15 minutes protection at these high concentrations.

    The EVACpro™ line of emergency escape respirators is a recently invented product and as such it can take years for standards to catch up to the technological advances in equipment. Many devices including the PASS and even helmets have been used in the fire service prior to standards development.

    I’ve used the EVACpro™ in several live burns: it works!

    If anyone would like to talk to me directly please feel free to call me on our toll free number at 1-800-459-3822 and press 6 in the automated system to get my extension.

    All the best

    Des
    I didn't ask complex questions. I asked two very simple questions.

    So what you said in a very long post is that the unit does not fit anywhere into a OSHA-compliant RPP.

    As a fire and safety professional, I do not care if the unit whistles Dixie while you have it on, it is plain and simple against OSHA regulations to wear this type of respirator in an oxygen deficient, potentially IDLH atmosphere. Therefore, as a responsible fire and safety professional, it is my job to ensure that every single piece of my equipment, my practices and my procedures mneet or exceed what is required by law. Therefore, I do not purchase, issue or allow a non-compliant piece of equipment. Period.

    Perhaps the fact that there is no NIOSH or OSHA standard for this type of unit is quite telling. Has DuPont attempted to have this unit listed or approved? Seems to me if this unit were the panacea you claim, it would be worth the financial investment to get ths unit approved.

    What they do in Europe is completely irrelevant to the United States.

    For those of you whoa re getting ready to bash me for this attitude, consider this scenario: Your FD issues these units, knowing full well that they are not permitted under an OSHA compliant RPP. A member is killed or seriously injured using one of these units. All of the requisite investigations are conducted and it is found that this unit was issued and permitted despite not being permitted by OSHA. Despite being placed n a very poor light in the NIOSH LODD report, what type of potential civil and criminal liability do you suppose you might be exposed for willfully violating the OSHA Respiratory Standards? And before you say it, I believe that in most jursidictions, a willful act is not protected under Tort Immunity Laws.

    Thank you for a very informative post.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 01-11-2005 at 08:44 AM.

  20. #40
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    Thank you Desmond for providing more information on the product. Personally, I'd still be leary of breathing filtered 200+ degree air. And I'll ask again about the 15minute time, how much is that effected by the actions of the user meaning, a guy resting could/would get more than a guy working?
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