1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SteveDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    1,254

    Default Firefighters doing EMS

    In the UK, the strong Unions have up until now resisted taking on EMS work (Both Fire & Ambulance Unions protecting what they saw as their specialism).

    Since the 2002/3 Fire Dispute in the UK where we got some of our money and the Government got 'modernisation'. First responding or Co-responding as it is being called is on its way.

    One of the First areas to get the Trail will be my area, the Borough of Tower Hamlets, the busiest Fire Borough, one of the poorest areas in Europe...with plenty of crime, fires, medical calls...if it works here it can work anywhere is the analogy.

    I am in two minds here. As a Chief's rep for the Union, I can see the point the Union is making, but in this day and age with best value reviews etc, I am also keen to see the job take on more skills...the more we do, the more indepensible we become. It's unlikely I will get the training, although if my Personnel are trained I'd like to be.

    My Question, I realise from my travels around the US that most of you are first responders, from the City Guys or the Busier Departments...how is it working for you? is it keeping Fire Stations open and Engines still in service? has it made you indespensible? and the real clincher...has it caused you to miss a job in your first due area... my reason is,

    In our Borough there are 6 Fire Stations, among all the other crap we do...persons in lifts, AFA's MVA's there are 16,000 actual Fire calls attended by the Stations... a good number of these are working jobs...it isn't going to take very long at all, especially at the busier 2 of the 6 Stations to miss a fire. How has this affected any of you?

    Thanks.
    Steve Dude
    IACOJ member
    www.fireservice.co.uk

    London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    391

    Talking

    Hi Steve,
    How are they planning to carry out this programme, do they intend for the LFB to attend all the medical emergencies, or just certain calls? If the intent is to answer all calls like we do here, then you guys are sure gonna be busy. I know that the ambulance service used to evaluate the calls they received and very often would tell the caller that they should go visit their doctor or go to the ER by pov etc, wish we could do that here. Im not sure it would be a good idea to attend routine med calls, but I certainly think that the Firefighters should be trained in EMS. In my time with the LFB we only received basic first aid from St Johns Ambulance. I personally have watched people die while we waited for over half hour for an ambulance to arrive, if we had had EMS training, they may have survived. On one occassion while I was working at Straford control, I had to wait for forty five minutes for the direct line to ambulace control to answer, true it was exceptionall busy that night, I can just imagine what the guys on scene were thinking.I wish you guys luck.

  3. #3
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile Well............................

    I guess I can throw out a bit of information. We are, by most standards, a busy place. We have, since 1928, provided emergency medical care and transport, since the 1970's ALS as well as BLS. In 2004, we ran (Countywide) 133,085 incidents, of which 89,406 were EMS incidents. Our population is about 850,000 and the County is 435 Square Miles. These calls were handled from 47 stations. Our people, going back to my Grandfather, who was a founding member of our local VFD, recognized the point made by Steve,"The more we do, the more indespensible we become", as being a very important means to influence others and help us to improve our lot. Today that holds true. While we have some medical people who have no interest in Firefighting, and Firefighters who really don't like EMS, the System works well. We don't miss many Fires due to being on other calls, but it can happen.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,628

    Default

    Speaking from a primarily volunteer and much slower perspective (1200 runs yearly, 80% are EMS) I can say that running EMS has generated most of the public support that we receieve today. There is no doubt that the community sees us as much more valuabale if for no other reason than we are out there more often. At times, EMS does create a problem as we have a very large district (about 120 miles) and there have been situations when a majority of our personnel have been on an EMS call at the edge of the district when a fire call comes in. However, to date we have been lucky and there have been enough non-EMS manpower available to contain or control the situations. However, the potential for a problem such as that is always there if you run a large volume of EMS alarms.

    Just my thoughts.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    DuBois, IL - just south of I-64 in the middle of the state
    Posts
    2,041

    Default

    I might as well give the "little guy" perspective. i dont' think it's much different though. About 10 years ago I said that if we ever started doing EMS, I quit. We started running 1st Responder with the county ambulance service about 4 years ago. Quite honestly, it's the best thing we could have done. We, too, get most of our recognition from the EMS calls. Our "customers" really appreciate seeing us there, sometimes 15 minutes before an ambulance (all ALS) gets there. I don't know how we could justify our existence if all we did was fires. We're not busy enough to worry much about missing a fire because of an EMS call. Being volunteer, we either get 2 or 15 people at the station so we can either cover the fire or we wouldn't have enough people anyway. Mutual Aid is great for those situations. About 80% of our 140 calls a year are sick calls, some of them amount to nothing. We go anyway since we're paged anytime the ambulance is sent to our district.
    We did the right thing adding EMS to our system.
    Jack Boczek, Chief
    Ashley Community Fire Protection District

    FLATLANDERS FOREVER!

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Smoke20286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    873

    Default

    Steve, there are many reasons for Fire Dept's adopting EMS, not the least of which is that it justifies jobs. The IAFF is heavily behind the move here. Our Dept has been running them for close to 30 years now. Fire Stations are more centrally located then where most ambulances are stationed and as such can often be there long before the ambulance.
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default

    EMS is the Cancer of the American Fire Service.

    Keep em ' Separate and let the EMS Guru's do what they gotta do and the Fire Guys do their thing. Merging the two is a Morale Killer.
    Proud Right-Wing Extremist since 1992

    "Extreme Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"- Michael Savage

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    90

    Default Dinosaur alert!!!!

    Nice attitude, Tiller...it's that wonderful dinosaur attitude that helps foster the good working spirit...I'm sure you're one of those guys that stands on the scene of an EMS run with his hands in his pockets muttering "Where's the damn ambulance?" The cancer on the fire service is not EMS but the attitudes of men like yourself who resist change of any sort. The bygone days of "fire runs and nothing but fire runs" are just that-gone. Get used to it, or retire.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    stm4710's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    Merging the two is a Morale Killer.
    I agree with you. I know personally when I am assigned to the ambulance I only will drive. Im only a FR and I refuse to touch anyone because I dont want a law suit. EMS is to me is ok to do but there are so many dam laws and law whore lawyers out there I dont even want to open a bandage.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,685

    Default

    When the two systems are working fine with no problems, there is no reason to merge them. Call me a dinosaur, but there is 0 reason to add EMS calls to my FD response.
    it justifies jobs
    To me, that is a poor reason. That job that is now being done by 1 person could be 2 jobs for 2 people, a FF and a separate EMS. In a way, your actually taking away someone's job.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #11
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    I think what needs to be separated in the argument is: transport EMS and First Responder EMS. Transport EMS is the morale and resource killer. We ran over 4000 calls last year, 85% EMS (like most of the country). We only have 80 people, and run a schedule system during the volunteer times. Most of us work normal weekdays, so trying to be on a box and run 3-6 calls per night making for little or no sleep, and then trying not to get fired the next day is getting near impossible. Personally I can't keep up the no sleep thing, so I stepped down as an officer at the end of this month because as an E/O, I don't have to ride the ambulance. The dept just bought a 5th ambulance, and we can't even schedule one out of each of the 3 stations while still having engine crews. Too many calls, not enough people, and firefighting resources are wasted making ER transports. Paid EMS-only or volunteer EMS only should be the ones making the transports. Anyone that fights fire should be ready to fight fire.

    First response EMS from fire trucks is fine in my book and highly necessary. I have no problem initiating patient care, packaging, etc, etc, I've been an EMT for 10 years. But if I'm supposed to be a senior officer, ready to take command on a fire scene, RIT, or whatever, it's kinda hard to do when I'm taking someone to the hospital in an ambulance. And yes, we've been screwed several times when we've had 6 EMT/FFs on ambulances making transports when the fire drops. Last month we had all 3 Suppression Captains and 2 Suppression LTs on ambulances with one FF to make up the 3 crews out on ER transports when an apartment fire dropped. And the chief had the nerve to get upset as us when he had no officers on scene for over 25 minutes, and only 9 FFs on the first 3 units. Gee, hard to find a solution for that.

    We have also had about 20 people in the last 2 years quit over being forced to run on the ambulance. The hardest hit is losing the career FFs that work for the major cities in the area that are around during their off shifts. Plus the experience and training is a major benefit. But they don't have to do EMS transport when they get paid for it, why do they want to do it for free? They all wanted to stay and just fight the fires to help out in their community when it was needed, but since they got crapped on for not wanting to run transport, they left.

    What's worse is that the money is there for 2 paid transport crews. It would be different if there was no money and volunteer staffing was the only option, but when they budget for 2 paid paramedic responders every shift, and don't use that money, we're halfway to 2 paid crews already. The higher the call volume, the harder it is to keep people when you're not paying them for their time to do something they don't want to do. EMS transport is the highest call volume arena, it should be the first to be paid.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Ok, SteveDude stated they will be doing first response, which isn't so bad. If you get on the scene of a medical call and aren't needed, simply go back into service. Should take a total of 10 minutes for the whole run. Now, if there is no transport unit on the scene and it'll take them awhile to arrive, thats when it gets to be a burden on the fire crews. If the patient isn't having some type of life threatning emergency then you are babysitting for the EMS people. We run ALS first response and our ambulances are in our firehouses and are staffed by fire department paramedics. If our first due unit is out and cannot make the run with our engine, we have a short wait for the next unit in. I can't recall in my 15yrs ever waiting more than 7-8 minutes for a unit. I like the idea of fire dept. EMS because it makes us so much more flexible. Also, our fire medics are heavily trained in rescue operations (rope, confined space, haz mat, etc.) Who better to send after a victim than a well trained firefighter who also happens to be a medic and can treat life threatning conditions at the point of entrapment? I have never had the experience from the fire side, but I worked part time for an EMS service that did county wide 911. We had fire first responders and they did have to wait time to time for our units to arrive because of poor coverage. And yes, they did get stuck with some bad patients and resented us for it.

  13. #13
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Default Re: Dinosaur alert!!!!

    Originally posted by CDean867
    Nice attitude, Tiller...it's that wonderful dinosaur attitude that helps foster the good working spirit...I'm sure you're one of those guys that stands on the scene of an EMS run with his hands in his pockets muttering "Where's the damn ambulance?" The cancer on the fire service is not EMS but the attitudes of men like yourself who resist change of any sort. The bygone days of "fire runs and nothing but fire runs" are just that-gone. Get used to it, or retire.
    Gotta jump in!! As you can see, TM 25 and I don't exactly agree, even though we're in the same County. I understand SOME of his attitude though, since his station's two EMS units are VERY overloaded. They have WAY MORE than their share of Nursing Homes, Assisted Living Homes, Clinics, ReHab Homes, Etc. in their district. almost 3/4 of their EMS runs are to "other than private residences" And that, in my opinion, is abuse of the system.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  14. #14
    FossilMedic

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    metro Washingon DC
    Posts
    526

    Default Fire-based ems

    Hi Steve:

    Thanks for posting your question.

    Urban and busy US fire departments have been prominently involved in some type of ems/first aid response since the end of World War II.

    Almost every fire department provides a minimum first responder to vehicle crashes and outside "serious" medical emergencies with firefighters trained as first responder - many with additional training in operating an external cardiac defibrillator.

    The use of fire companies as ems first responders was promoted by Fire Chief Gordon Vickery (Seattle) and Battalion Chief James O. Page (Los Angeles County) in the 1970s. Both chiefs advocated fire company involvement in ems as a means of maintaining staffing and fire stations. About 80% of a busy/urban fire department's emergency responses are for medical and accident events.

    IAFF (union) perspective: http://www.cpf.org/index.jsp?zone=CP...&DisplayType=2

    IAFC (chief) perspective: http://www.iafc.org/sections/ems.asp

    In the largest US cities, fire-based (or supervised) ems has been a mixed lot. Hostile takeovers in New York and San Francisco have been ugly, with San Francisco announcing a new plan to move back to the old separate agencies for fire and ambulance. The big exception is that San Francisco Fire will still be first responders, some as paramedic/firefighters on engine companies.

    Some cities have had fire department supervision of civilian staffed transport units (Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington DC) others have required firefighters to perform ambulance or paramedic duty (Miami-Dade, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Baltimore.)

    At the station there remains a big cultural challenge. Many firefighters are opposed to assuming any ems duty (Chris - Tillerman25 - is not alone with those sentiments.) Firefighter-paramedics complain of being treated as second class citizens within the fire station while spending significant more time handling emergencies.

    For example, a 1999 study in Baltimore showed that the engines and aerials spent about 1 hour and 45 minutes in every 24 hours responding/handling emergencies (fire/ems/alarm bells/investigations) while the paramedic ambulances were spending over 14 hours in 24 responding/handling emergencies.

    Many fire-staffed and fire-supervised ems systems suffer from poorly oriented supervisors and commanders who allow abusive working conditions to fester. Los Angeles city is in the fourth year of a massive five year ems improvement program to place a paramedic asset in every fire station, increased the number of transport units by 40% (to a total fleet of 117 ambulances) and put a paramedic supervisor in every battalion.

    Finally - you WILL be missing working fire events while handling ems calls. A recent article in the Arizona Republic reported the changing workload of the Phoenix Fire Department. The spokesperson said that only 11% of the 9-1-1 responses in the city were for fire events. Phoenix Engine 18 regularly experiences two to four calls in it's district at the same time - 80% of those calls in this economically depressed district are ems.

    In general, the busiest urban fire companies - in terms of working fires - also have high ems workload. The same demographics that create accidental and arson fires also generate ambulance calls.

    Even with a second staffed paramedic ambulance (Rescue 209) Los Angeles Fire Station 9 remains one of the busiest houses in the city, averaging 58 responses a day. Station 9 houses Light Force 9 [Truck 9 and Engine 209], Engine 9, Rescue 9 (paramedic ambulance) and Rescue 209 (paramedic ambulance.) Each paramedic rescue ambulance averages 11 responses a day. Truck 9 averaged 7.4 responses a day (ranked #2 citywide.) Engine 9 averages 14.9 responses a day (ranked #2 citywide.) Engine 209 averages 13.5 responses a day (ranked #4 citywide.)

    For example, in the first quarter of 2004, the first-due district served by LAFD Station 9 averaged 34 calls every 24 hours: 5 were fire-related incidents (ranked #1 in the city), 18.2 were ALS and 10.7 were BLS calls. Fire-related calls included all fires, fire alarms, hazards, rescues, and all other non-medical type incidents.

    Hope this helps!

    Mike

    Assistant Professor Michael J. Ward
    EMS Management
    The George Washington University
    http://www.gwumc.edu/ems/ward.html

    Fire Science Program Head
    Northern Virginia Community College
    http://www.nvcc.edu/home/mward/

    . . . and two decades as a firefighter/paramedic in an urban county
    Last edited by MikeWard; 10-19-2004 at 06:40 PM.

  15. #15
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Talking MIKE?????

    What do you do in your spare time??
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  16. #16
    FossilMedic

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    metro Washingon DC
    Posts
    526

    Default Re: MIKE?????

    Originally posted by hwoods
    What do you do in your spare time??
    Lurk on web sites.

    Steve: Engine 10 in Washington DC has been the busiest engine (according to the Firehouse magazine annual report)for a decade.

    This summer the local alternative paper did a feature on the House of Pain: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/c...cover0618.html

    Latest fiscal year statistics (1 October 2002 to 30 September 2003)
    Total runs: 6982
    Ranked tenth in the city with 1689 fire suppression runs (anything that is not ems or crashes.)
    Ranked first in the city with 5296 ems runs - representing 76% of their activity.
    Annual number of ems runs increased about 1000 from FY01 to FY03.

    Engine 10 "House of Pain" website: http://www.10engine.com/

    While you are at it, may want to check with the New South Wales Fire Brigade, Australia. Long waits for NSW ambulances was driving the municipality (especially the city of Sydney) to request fire brigade increase in first responding to ems calls. Do not know the final outcome.

    Mike
    Last edited by MikeWard; 10-19-2004 at 04:22 PM.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    stm4710's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    I refuse to touch anyone because I dont want a law suit.
    CB, perhaps I should have mentioned our cards have expiered and the brass still has not lifted a finger to do anything about it. Yet they want us at EMS details at the citys football games.

    If something were to happen the 3 EMT's per detail can handle it, me and the other two expierd people will hand stuff, open doors and drive but we told our captain right off we will not touch the person. We frankly have to much to lose if that person that was DK decided to sue for any reason.

    Now if someone were to choke or collapse or something when I was off duty,thats a different story. But on duty, let those that have higher and current certs be the one to do the actual treatment while we assit..........cause of there were a lawsuit they have a leg to stand on in court.
    This was an issue few weeks ago here


    I dont mind doing EMS as I said before but you managed to ignore. But I want to make sure my certs are current to protect both me and the paitent. And anyone in the medical field that doesnt have a lawsuit in the back of thier mind these days is either nieve or stupid.

    Going a bit off topic here, but for those of you that do EMS day in day out, if you think the legal enviroment is hostile now. Wait until Kerry is elected and Edwards and his trial lawyer lobby have a big foot in the door.
    Last edited by stm4710; 10-19-2004 at 05:09 PM.
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    KC,MO
    Posts
    103

    Default

    stevedude:
    for many of us in big or bigger cities, and i suspect almost everywhere else, ems isn't a contentious issue. it is simple a necessary evil, like washing the truck. a little annoying, a little rewarding. that said, keep in mind the fire based ems response is PRIMARILY JUSTIFIED ONLY FOR EMERGENCY SITUATION, e.i., when time is important. here, we only send a rig to ems calls that are trauma (major), cardiac, or respiratory in nature, or altered levels of consciousness. that means (or is designed to mean), no psych calls, no back pain calls, no sick/ill calls. i would really press to keep a proviso in your contract that the extra manpower/apparatus/money involve in send fire rigs to ems calls be metered to only the bare necessities. if it's not life-threatening, its a waste of time and money. by contrast, if you need to have some trained medical professional on scene 2-10 minutes before the ambulance can get there, it indispensable.

  19. #19
    Member

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    59

    Default

    I am part of a decently sized VFD in NY. We have 3 stations running 4 engines, 2 trucks, and a heavy rescue normally. We also have 3 ambulances, one per station to cover EMS calls which suffice for about 80% of our calls. We always have enough people to cover our ambulances and our trucks if needed. We have MANY EMT'S and FR'S and even though we only have one rescue company running the ambulance from our HQ station, our FF'S who are trained EMT's run the other two from their home station. We have never had a problem with manpower and the EMS service we provide helps out alot with donations and the community support.
    Mike
    Levittown, NY
    Cadet Corps Member
    1st Lieutenant

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Dave1105's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    148

    Default

    While you are at it, may want to check with the New South Wales Fire Brigade, Australia. Long waits for NSW ambulances was driving the municipality (especially the city of Sydney) to request fire brigade increase in first responding to ems calls. Do not know the final outcome.
    Not sure about NSW... but Melbourne has the exact same problems.... Waits of up to 30 - 40 minutes are common in some areas for ambulances, which drove the MFB(Metropolitan fire Brigade) and the MAS (Metropolitan Ambulance Service) to join together and impliment a first-responder system for firetrucks. It was, i believe, the first of it's kind in Australia.... Any other aussies correct me if i'm wrong??

    All primary appliances are now equipped with basic first-aid and defib equipment and the brigade is toned out for all MAS priority 0 events (Including Cardiac Arrest, Respitory Arrest, Drownings, Hangings, Electrocutions.... etc). This works out quite well and the brigade manages to resusitate quite a few patients, well before MAS arrive.... But the figures aren't through the roof.

    The problem is, this system only covers 48% of metropolitan melbourne (The area in which the MFB operate).... the other 52% and the rest of the state doesn't have any kind of first-responder system. The stupid thing being, these are the areas that can probably benefit the most..... For example, Where I volunteer (Approx 40km from the centre of melbourne) during peak times, we have an average wait of at least 15 - 20 minutes for an ambulance... go 20 or 30km down the road and those times can double. Yet, no sign of trying to impliment any kind of first-responder program....

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    We have ran EMS in some form since the 1950's that I know about when we responded with a Cadillac Ambualnce and Chevy Step van. We began to transport in 1980 or so and that required all members to become EMT's. We did have some people quit over getting an actual ambulance. In 1994 we established ALS care for our community and were one of the first departments in our county to do this on the POC/Voly level, now 14 years later it is the standard. We do approximately 600 call annually with again 450 or so are medical. I have also seen EMS and fire split and could not imagine how that is benefical.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default

    It would be different if they just sent our Engine Company for Priority One calls like Cardiacs, T/B or Trauma, but they send the Engine on everything under the sun where an Ambulance isn't available.

    Try sitting on the scene of a patient with an inflamed Hemorrhoid and has said "I don't feel like driving myself to the hospital, that's why you are here" while the second due Engine is screaming by running a Fire in YOUR AREA and you are stuck waiting for the fourth due ambulance because the first through third due are sitting at nursing homes babysitting Non-English Speaking Immigrants who got their Nursing Degrees out of Cracker Jack Boxes and cannot determine whether an Abnormal Blood Pressure is an "Emergency" or not.

    Like I said, EMS is the Cancer of the American Fire Service.
    Proud Right-Wing Extremist since 1992

    "Extreme Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"- Michael Savage

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    391

    Talking

    In my opinion we are in this business to provide help to the public,as long as a fire call is attended within the prescribed time frame does it really matter if its the first or second due that goes?
    What to us may be nothing, may be a big deal to someone who is scared and in need of reassurance. I dont think that attending all med calls is appropriate for those depts that have a really big volume of fire and other non med calls, but would we really like to sit in the station while somebody who is in need of help has to wait for an ambulance to arrive. All firefighters should have at least the basic skills to give aid and comfort to a fellow human being in need.

    I do not know how the set up will be in steve dudes area of london, and am not sure how it will work, I believe that London answers about 265,000 calls a year, the London Ambulance service gets well over 1 million calls a year. The LFB in an A risk area has to get on scene in less than four minutes under normal circumstances, The ambulance service aims to have an ambulance on scene for a category A patient in eight mins 75 percent of the time, so obviously if you can get a fire truck there within four mins, we are giving that patient a vital extra four mins. But we shall have to rely on steve for more info as to what will be happening over the pond.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: Fire-based ems

    Originally posted by MikeWard
    Hi Steve:



    Some cities have had fire department supervision of civilian staffed transport units (Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington DC)
    Chicago Fire Department paramedics are sworn members, and have been since 1976...just because they're not firemen doesn't make them any less a member of the fire service.

    And Tiller25 should have stated his opinion was based on being too busy, not just on a hatred of EMS in general. Not that it would have changed my response....

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    paid or vollie. ambulance response times. level of care provided. call volume. what have you traditionally done. these all need to be taken into consideration.

    IMO, all paid FFs should at least be EMTs, if not paramedics. I also think all paid FFs should go on first response EMS call, especially those that are life threatening. call volume needs to be taken into consideration. if an engine is doing 20 fire calls in a 24 hours period, you might not be able to suppot it. however, if the engine is doing 6 calls in a 24 hours period, than maybe it can. does your town have an ambulance? does it routinely arrive on scene less than 10 minutes after dispatch? are they out of 1 station, or on a deployed system basis (where they are constantly on the road to ensure a quicker response)? if the ambulance is always 30 minutes out, you might want to have the FD respond, be the FR, and cancel the ambulance if it's an RMA. and the ever present tradition. what have you done? some dept's have been doing EMS since the 50s and 60s, others "don't do this kind of EMS stuff." also, if the ambulance is ALS, should the FD be too? it's expensive. maybe ILS or BLS? all depends.

    for volunteer systems, it's different. you don't always have people in house 24/7. if people are responding to the station for calls, often EMS isn't a good thing. it can sometimes triple the call volume. you might not always get a qualified medical person to respond. sometimes the ambulance will beat you to the scene. however, if your ambulance responds from 15+ miles away, you might want to consider it, even if they have to respond to the scene. some vol departments, especially in the daytimes, are strapped for manpower. triple their daytime call volume, and they won't be able to handle it. and again, responding to emergencies only (where time is of the essence) can help eliminate the BS calls, and make sure the fire crew is available for fire calls.

    remember, when someone calls 911, having an emergency responder arrive makes them feel better. whether it be police, fire or EMS. at least an intervention can be started.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register