Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
Closed Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 83
  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    566

    Default

    Seeing as most of these POV responders probably live in rural (extremely rural) areas, I doubt they have more than 1 traffic light in their response area, much less congestion. And if they are one of the East Coast townships with a vollie dept, let's be real- the whole downtown area is less than 1 sq mile. Many of these responders can walk to the station faster than driving.
    We know the saying about assumptions, right?

    My response district has more then 1 traffic light, on our main roads (all state highways...) we have heavy traffic, and I don't think any of our members can walk to the station...

    EDIT: Forgot to add, we are extremely rural also.


  2. #22
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Originally posted by Resq14


    In Maine, they're "courtesy lights."

    I do think they're dumb. For some areas during the summer though, departments supposedly rely on them. I say, bite the bullet and provide minimal staffing to at least roll the truck out of the congestion.
    I agree with the courtesy lights being dumb....... You're either an emergency vehicle, or you're not.....

    Here in OH, after your vehicle has been INSPECTED EVERY YEAR, and with the proper display of decals from the Stae Fire Marshal, you may use Lights and Sirens and you are considered an emergency vehicle, just like the BRTs, ambulances and police cars. I use them. Most people in this area use them. If you have problems with people who may be abusing them and driving recklessly, you handle the problem with that person. For what it's worth, I think we've had more problems with those who DON'T use lights and sirens versus those who do.

    As for the minimal staffing, some places aren't fortunate enough to be able to do it, whether it's due to call volumes or other reasons.

    Using lights and sirens are just like any other issue in the fire service. You do have some people that give us a black-eye. I think the majority do not. Just like any other problem, whether it's drinking in the firehouse, sexual harassment, hitting band members with high pressure water from your truck, fighting in the firehouse, fighting on the fireground, or any other bad story you read on this site or anywhere else. It happens in SOME places, not the majority.....

  3. #23
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    I think you guys are confusing two topics. I'm not saying members should be using lights in their POVs to respond to a scene (although they can), but rather when responding to the station.

    so they wouldn't be responding with out equipment, but rather using the lights to expidite thier response to the station to pick up their turnout gear and to staff an engine.

    oh, btw, I'm legitamately confused by this topic. I'm not trying to start trouble, I just have yet to hear a logical argument why it's ok to have lights on a BRT (where the lights are used to allow the BRT to bend traffic rules using due regards for a more rapid response, as well as identification of the vehicle as an emergency vehicle at an emergency scene), however when a person wants to place them on his/her POV (for the same reasons, as well as to expidiate a response to the station to man the BRT), it becomes a horrible idea. logical responses only, responses of "I'm right because I say I'm right" don't really help your cause.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    oh, btw, I'm legitamately confused by this topic. I'm not trying to start trouble, I just have yet to hear a logical argument why it's ok to have lights on a BRT (where the lights are used to allow the BRT to bend traffic rules using due regards for a more rapid response, as well as identification of the vehicle as an emergency vehicle at an emergency scene), however when a person wants to place them on his/her POV (for the same reasons, as well as to expidiate a response to the station to man the BRT), it becomes a horrible idea. logical responses only, responses of "I'm right because I say I'm right" don't really help your cause.
    My personal thoughts are easily stated:
    1. Department vehicles are, or should be, inspected and maintained at an extremely high level. While I'm sure that all of the posters here keep their own autos in excellent shape, sadly some responders might not.
    2. What type of liability insurance do the POV vehicles with lights on them carry? Do their insurers know that the vehicle is being used in such a manner, with the much higher risk of collison?

    3. First due response vehicles respond lights and siren on the "assumption" that the true nature of the call is unknown until professional crews are on the scene; this is why they are granted exemptions to certain traffic laws. If a local government decides that a POV responding to a station to get a piece of apparatus is worth granting the same exemptions, then that vehicle should follow the same regulations as the response unit (ie full complement of lights, audible warning device in use, etc). Some jurisdications allow
    "courtesy lights" (ie green lights), which have sadly been abused, perhaps due to confusion over the true meaning of warning devices and their proper use; courtesy lights should not be confused with a full complement of visual and audible warning devices.
    4. In short, first due units are given the right to use warning devices to respond to scenes whereby their timely response could reasonable have a positive impact on the loss of life or property.
    Most departments grant POV's the right to use courtesy lights, not full rights to take exemption for traffic laws.
    If we would like to discuss the need for first due units to respond lights and sirens to EVERY call, I will gladly discuss the fallacies of that practice.

    And I of course realize that there are certainly volunteer depts that serve large areas with dense populations; from national statistics found online however, the vast majority of volunteer depts serve areas that would be considered "rural" when compared to larger cities.
    There are certainly many departments in NY state, one of the "most densley populated states" in the country that would be classified as rural.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    hmmm, lets try to address this one point at a time. I live in New Jersey, which is the most densly populated state in the nation. and while the firehouse is two blocks from my house (and I'm the 2nd closest guy to the station), the squad is close to 3 miles, our main firehouse is about 3.5 miles, and our other station is in the north end of town. so yeah, you really can't walk to it.
    So why not walk the 2 blocks to your station?

    and what "inordinate amount of POV responders killed while driving to the firehouse" are you referring to? yes, there have been LODDs from FFs responding in their POVs, however there have also been FFs killed while responding in department vehicles.
    Funny, I havn't read about any LODD's lately where a career fireman on the way to work was killed in his pov and they called it a LODD.
    Do I really have to go to the NIOSH FIrefighter Fatality reports page and link you to the reports of fatalities involving volunteer ff deaths while responding POV? Could you do that yourself and get back to us?
    And if I'm killed in a dept engine while working my wife gets lot's of $$$. Will a private insurance copmany even cover someone that drives through an intersection with a little light blinking in the grill?


    hmmm, a very interesting comment. so i'm guessing ambulances never get into accidents? neither do fire trucks? and we all know that cops have never crashed. and you know, i bet civilians have never been killed in any of those accidents. because that just doesn't happen [/B]
    Actually, these tragedies happen every day. Which is why there should be less people driving around rapidly trying to get to the firehouse, and less vehicles driving lights and sirens in general. Especially if they are in a non-emergency response vehicle, that does not have a full compliment of warning devices, being driven by someone that may not be EVAP trained, and may not have adequate insurance.
    How many years do you have in the fire service Dr Parasite? Surely you've seen this discussed before, and with your vast experience and training you must be aware of the guidelines and standards required for emergnecy response vehicles.

    Sincerely, the Paragod.
    Last edited by mittlesmertz; 11-02-2004 at 02:57 AM.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Sturgis, MI. U.S.A.
    Posts
    198

    Wink There are no wrong answers

    Dan,

    I doubt you will find what you seek here in the forums or anywhere else for that matter. No universal solution exists. Each department should choose procedures and evaluate their performance. Evaluation should dictate change in procedure.

    The important thing is that you asked why. Why do we do everything the way we do? Why do they do it differently? Should we do it differently?

    Keep asking yourself those questions and you will be the better for it.

    Stay Safe

    P.S.
    We have red lights and sirens on all firefighters POVs.
    Only designated drivers respond to the station for apparatus.
    We have evaluated this procedure – we are not changing it at this time.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    The problem isn't the lights. The problem is the people driving the vehicle with the lights. Unfortunately, we let that same person drive the BRT. and somehow believe that their driving habits change once they get behind the wheel of the BRT with it's approved lights.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #28
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Since when does using emergency lights guarantee a collision.Best I can determine,using the sames rules as apply to the BRT,it WON'T. The city doesn't furnish my ride,yet as a Div.Chief I'm expected to make a majority of the calls and generally direct to the scene to evaluate hazards and help command.The City doesn't furnish the bosses ride either so I guess his car could be considered a POV as well.Some of your commentary would be "well,make the city staff your station and buy the boss a car" Noble intent,but not in the cards here.We've issued "priviledge"cards for some time here and in over thirty years I know of only one being revoked.Oh, I've had some people in my office over the years but no more for POV's than BRT's.There is no "cookie cutter"fits all policy here,it has to be tailored to locale and circumstances.So I'm on the "light 'em and fight 'em side of the fence.And Yes,we're urban/rural with heavy commercial traffic.Training and solid policies go a long way to addressing the issues brought up here.And as far as unsafe vehicles go,the State of Maine inspection laws apply equally whether it is a BRT or a POV.If it isn't safe it isn't stickered or on the road.If it is,it's subject to a HEALTHY fine.T.C.

  9. #29
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default in response to the paragod

    actually, I prefer to ride my bike to the station when the weather gets nice. I do that for training, or if I just want to hang out. however, during an alarm, my goal is to get to the station as quick (and safely) as possible, mount the engine, and respond. I can get there much quicker in a car than walking or on my bike. remember it's an emergencies, minutes and seconds count. oh yeah, and when I am responding to the station for a call, 99% of the time I don't have any emergency lights on.
    Funny, I havn't read about any LODD's lately where a career fireman on the way to work was killed in his pov and they called it a LODD... And if I'm killed in a dept engine while working my wife gets lot's of $$$. Will a private insurance copmany even cover someone that drives through an intersection with a little light blinking in the grill?
    actually, volunteers generally get mone $$$ when a LODD occurs. and to answer your second question, yes it will. your department's insurance covers you from the time you walk out the door to the time you make it home. at least that's how it was in every department i've ever been in. and sir, you didn't even respond to my comment. I am well aware of the LODD that occur when volunteers respond in POVs. however, do you think the total number killed in MVC involving BRT or ambulances is higher or lower that those in POVs? (hint hint, it's the latter).
    4. In short, first due units are given the right to use warning devices to respond to scenes whereby their timely response could reasonable have a positive impact on the loss of life or property.
    I bolded a part of your quote. and I'll agree with you on that one. however, how can you say BRTs should use L&S to ensure a timely response, as to impact on the loss of life or property, yet it is ridiculous for the crew of that BRTs (and driver) to use lights in their POV to ensure shorter response to the station, as to positively impact on the loss of life or property?

    Bones, I agree with you 100%.

    I'm not asking a question about each individual department's policies. I know everyone does things differently, and that's ok. my question is why there is so much hypocracy ("we need to cut response times, but if a member has a blue light in his car, and it helps him shave off 30 seconds, well, that's just not acceptable") as well as the thought that BRTs respond L&S to ensure a quick response, however a member in a POV (who is needed to staff the truck) should not have them. without the firefighters on the engine, all it becomes is an expensive paperweight.
    Especially if they are in a non-emergency response vehicle, that does not have a full compliment of warning devices, being driven by someone that may not be EVAP trained, and may not have adequate insurance.
    How many years do you have in the fire service Dr Parasite? Surely you've seen this discussed before, and with your vast experience and training you must be aware of the guidelines and standards required for emergnecy response vehicles.
    so then isn't this a training issue? those that are approving the use of lights in their POVs aren't properly training those who use them in the rule and ragulations? so if someone isn't following the rules, why not correct the offender, instead of saying the entire system is wrong? but that might be too difficult for a paragod to do

    and as Rescue101 says,
    And as far as unsafe vehicles go,the State of Maine inspection laws apply equally whether it is a BRT or a POV.If it isn't safe it isn't stickered or on the road.If it is,it's subject to a HEALTHY fine.T.C.
    thank, I couldn't think of a way to enforce that one, but your right. and if you really want to be picky, some dept vehicles might not be inspected by the motor vehilcles agency, as they are above a certain weight, and are thus subject to self inspection.

    As for my experience, I join my VFD in 6/98. I joined the local EMS squad in 10/98. my list of alphabet soup includes FF1(soon to be FF2), EMT, EVOC, PHTLS, ICS200, HAZMAT Ops, WMD Ops, MVX, Pumps Ops. my FD runs 800 calls a year, my squad between 4500 and 5000. I also have a Bachelors degree from Syracuse University, am an Eagle Scout, and have worked paid EMS as well as volunteer. not that I think this will impress anyone, because it's nothing compares to what some seasoned vets have (10 and 20 year vets, officers, chiefs, etc). but yeah, that's my background in a nutshell.

    and I don't put up with hypocracy, I don't believe in do what I say, not what I do, or the old I'm right because I say I'm right, and if something doesn't make sense, I have no problems pointing that out. and I am a firm believer in using logic in order to show how a person might think one thing, however logically it doesn't make sense.

    so paragod (you really should change your SN to that), maybe you'd like to give a coherent arguement that can't be blown to pieces using facts?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default

    I had a long response for this, but really, what's the point.
    DR Parasite mention hypocracy. Ok, fine, let's deal with that.
    If a municipality wants to outfit it's POV responders with a full complement of visual and audible warning devices, have each responder complete a DAILY vehicle inspection form,and ensure up to date EVAP training for all POV responders, then great, let them respond just like Emergency Response Vehicles.
    However, any POV vehicle that does not follow the same rules and regulations as a a dept vehicle should not be allowed to respond in any mode other than normal traffic laws allow.
    To do otherwise would be hypocratic.
    Last edited by mittlesmertz; 11-02-2004 at 03:44 PM.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

  11. #31
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    similarly, my bachelors degree doesn't really have anything to do with my fire experience. I just thought I would throw that in for S&G.

    and most volunteer departments that I am aware of do truck checks either weekly or twice a aweek. only those that have crews in house 24/7 do daily checks, and in those cases, they don't respond to the station for calls. and many departments to require EVOC or CEVO or EVAP or whatever you want to call it. but there are also departments that don't require it to drive BRTs.

    and your right, my eagle was earned at 1980. I guess that means a younger person was able to poke holes in all your arguments. something you should be very proud of

    so yeah, you still havn't given a good reason (that can't be have holes poked in it) as to why we like having lights on BRTs but not on POVs. but thanks for trying.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  12. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: in response to the paragod

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    and to answer your second question, yes it will. your department's insurance covers you from the time you walk out the door to the time you make it home. at least that's how it was in every department i've ever been in.
    If a POV responding from home is involved in a collison, it is irresponsible to assume that the FD insurance will cover you. I would recommend that all responders check with their insurance agents as to their coverage when using a POV in this manner. When I volunteered, it was explained to me by my agent that using a vehicle in this manner could be seen as "outside the normal use" for the vehicle, and thus the coverage may be reduced. And when the agent finds out the intended use of the vehicle, do you think the rates might go up?

    you didn't even respond to my comment. I am well aware of the LODD that occur when volunteers respond in POVs. however, do you think the total number killed in MVC involving BRT or ambulances is higher or lower that those in POVs? (hint hint, it's the latter).
    As you state later, you are the defender of truth and reason. Well, let's look.
    Doing a search on the NIOSH Firefighter Fatality Investigation Reports will show that from 1999-2003 there were 6 fatality accidents involving responders in POV's, either going to a call or the station.
    During that same period, excluding tanker rollovers, which is a different problem entirely, there were 7 fatalities involving ff's responding to calls in emergency response units. This would bring up the logical question of how many more miles/hours are put in by emergency vehicles running lights and sirens vs how many miles/hours put in by POV's responding to the firehouse. Common sense would dictate that emergency response vehicles spend alot more time with lights and sirens on then the limited amount of time spent by responders going to the station. So yes, there were more ff fatalities in emergency response veihicles than POv's (7 vs 6). However, the fatalities per mile/hour driven would show an "inordinately" higher amount of fatalities for the POV responders.
    Do you have any more hints for me?

    I bolded a part of your quote. and I'll agree with you on that one. however, how can you say BRTs should use L&S to ensure a timely response, as to impact on the loss of life or property, yet it is ridiculous for the crew of that BRTs (and driver) to use lights in their POV to ensure shorter response to the station, as to positively impact on the loss of life or property?
    I've never posted anywhere that I think the policy of POV response with lights is "ridiculous". Maybe that's how you feel, I don't know.



    so then isn't this a training issue? those that are approving the use of lights in their POVs aren't properly training those who use them in the rule and ragulations? so if someone isn't following the rules, why not correct the offender, instead of saying the entire system is wrong? but that might be too difficult for a paragod to do
    Yes, this is a training issue. The NIOSH reports show a clear pattern in the POV deaths- excessive speed for the conditions. Of note,in not one of the fatality accidents were the POV using a full complement of emergency lights and sirens. Improve the training for all responders regarding safe driving.
    As you gain more time on the job, you'll realize that the "seconds count" idea is really a fallacy. I exceed the speed limit maybe once every 10 calls (that's once a shift for me, not once every 3 months for you). As you run more calls, you will realize that in the VAST majority of calls an extra minute or two will make no difference what so ever in the final outcome. I know it's exciting to rush to the firehouse in anticipation of what might be a serious call, but a prudent responder will respond quickly and efficiently, and have a long healthy career.


    my experience, I join my VFD in 6/98. I joined the local EMS squad in 10/98. my list of alphabet soup includes FF1(soon to be FF2), EMT, EVOC, PHTLS, ICS200, HAZMAT Ops, WMD Ops, MVX, Pumps Ops. my FD runs 800 calls a year, my squad between 4500 and 5000. I also have a Bachelors degree from Syracuse University, am an Eagle Scout, and have worked paid EMS as well as volunteer. not that I think this will impress anyone, because it's nothing compares to what some seasoned vets have (10 and 20 year vets, officers, chiefs, etc). but yeah, that's my background in a nutshell.
    Please, please, you did not just list Eagle Scout as part of your resume.Wait, I gotta stop to get the tears out of my eyes from laughing.
    Ok I'm back. Yeah, I think I got mine in 1979 or so. Does that count? For some reason I think yours might be a little more current...
    The reason I ask about experience is that I often find the newer, less experienced repsonders are the ones that are racing all over the place. My personal interpretation, I know, but I've done this a little while now. I'm sure I'll get posts from 16 year olds that will say they are very calm and level headed,but I stand by my generalization.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

  13. #33
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    mittlesmertz, you are correct in that my personal auto insurance carrier MAY or MAY NOT cover to the full extent an accident involving my response to a call. However, my town's insurance does cover any and all expenses that may occur due to "performing my duties" and responding from my house to the station for a call is one of those duties. The Town (and the insurance carrier) has left it up to the department's officers to decide whether a member can/can't have lights. It's happened (not to me, but others) and there have been no problems with it.

    Training is the key. If they are trained to drive the BRT, they should be trained in their POV.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber Saltspringfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    52

    Default

    I think Dr. Parasite makes a good argument. In a business that relies on seconds, the quicker you can get to the fire hall safely, the quicker you can get the BRT to the call safely. Coming from a composite department, where I'm employed as a "full-time" member, we rely on volunteers to help in every emergency situation. While it would be great to say, "hire more full time guys", in many communities all over, it's just not going to happen!

    I, like others that have replied, do not rely on my lights and sirens in the BRT. I generally drive the speed limit, and always slow down, if not come to a complete stop while approaching intersections. The lights do however get the BRT there faster because people pull over and get out of the way. Why would I not then get to the hall faster using the same princibles. I could still obey all the traffic rules, but arrive at the hall sooner, which would get the needed emergency equipment to the scene faster.

    I know it works because on some occations I am required to take a duty vehicle home at nights. Depending on where in our community the call is I am required to go to the station and grab a BRT. The duty vehicle is a dept. vehicle with full emergency lights and siren. When "off duty" I "volunteer" (I know that's a whole other topic) at the same hall. I ALWAYS get there sooner in the truck with the lights and siren. Driving exactly the same way. SAFELY.

    After all is said and done isn't the main goal to get to the scene safe and help? While it sounds like lights in POV's have been abused in some departments, you can't tell me that BRT haven't been abused in the past either. Lets face it there is problems with any system, and maybe lights in POV's is not the answer, but it would seem to get the BRT to the scene faster. And they can be used safely.





    Remember;
    Don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet the sweatty stuff!

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Originally posted by Bones42

    Training is the key. If they are trained to drive the BRT, they should be trained in their POV. [/B]
    Absolutely agree Bones.
    As I've posted before,if a dept wants their members to respond in their POV's in a "lights and siren mode" they should treat the POv exactly as they do a dept vehicle, with the same rules and regs.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

  16. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Originally posted by Saltspringfire
    I, like others that have replied, do not rely on my lights and sirens in the BRT. I generally drive the speed limit, and always slow down, if not come to a complete stop while approaching intersections. The lights do however get the BRT there faster because people pull over and get out of the way. Why would I not then get to the hall faster using the same princibles. I could still obey all the traffic rules, but arrive at the hall sooner, which would get the needed emergency equipment to the scene faster.

    I know it works because on some occations I am required to take a duty vehicle home at nights. Depending on where in our community the call is I am required to go to the station and grab a BRT. The duty vehicle is a dept. vehicle with full emergency lights and siren. When "off duty" I "volunteer" (I know that's a whole other topic) at the same hall. I ALWAYS get there sooner in the truck with the lights and siren. Driving exactly the same way. SAFELY.
    Again, there appears to be confusion, at least on my part, as to POV's using "lights and sirens" and POV's using "courtesy lights".
    A POV using lights and sirens really isn't a POV anymore, in the classical sense. It is a properly equipped emergency response vehicle, operating under the auspices of the local and state rules for operating such a vehicle. Yes, a POV equipped as such would be able to respond more quickly to a firehouse.
    The confusion on my part are the "courtesy light" vehicles. This would seem to be a gray area in terms of what they are allowed to do in regards to rules of the road. If they want to operate as an emergency vehicle, great, just do it all the way. Allowing a courtesy light program seems like a half-hearted attempt by the local government- "we want you to get there quickly, but we don't want to treat you like a real response vehicle". It would appear that while this program works in several areas throughout the nation, the potential liabilities, as well as potential for abuse, would make the system less than ideal.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

  17. #37
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    The City doesn't furnish the bosses ride either so I guess his car could be considered a POV as well.
    It is critical for everyone to know the "rules of the road" in this business.

    For Maine, Title 29-A §2054. Emergency and auxiliary lights; sirens; privileges states:

    B. "Authorized emergency vehicle" means any one of the following vehicles:
    (16) A vehicle operated by a municipal fire inspector, a municipal fire chief, an assistant or deputy chief or a town forest fire warden;


    "Operated" not owned.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  18. #38
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Originally posted by mittlesmertz

    The confusion on my part are the "courtesy light" vehicles. This would seem to be a gray area in terms of what they are allowed to do in regards to rules of the road. If they want to operate as an emergency vehicle, great, just do it all the way. Allowing a courtesy light program seems like a half-hearted attempt by the local government- "we want you to get there quickly, but we don't want to treat you like a real response vehicle". It would appear that while this program works in several areas throughout the nation, the potential liabilities, as well as potential for abuse, would make the system less than ideal.
    Exactly...... Either you are running lights and sirens, or nothing. I think courtesy lights are worthless, from what I've heard of them....... If it's something to warn people when you are on scene, keep a small teardrop or something in your vehicle to only be used when your vehicle is PARKED on a scene, not while responding........

  19. #39
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Originally posted by Saltspringfire
    I think Dr. Parasite makes a good argument. In a business that relies on seconds, the quicker you can get to the fire hall safely, the quicker you can get the BRT to the call safely.
    Does our business rely on seconds?

    Where do you save time?

    Honestly think about it, rather than buy into the cliche without analyzing it. Sure, "if only we'd gotten there x-seconds sooner" applies in some situations, but at what cost? Is it fair to extrapolate that generalization to 90ish percent of our responses?

    How many departments have personnel who tell units to "step it up" when the units are already responding lights and sirens? Do you floor it?

    I feel that adrenaline is at the root of many of the issues that arise from emergency responses--ESPECIALLY in departments with relatively low call volumes.
    Last edited by Resq14; 11-02-2004 at 09:29 PM.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  20. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Well said RSQ. As I stated before, while a poster was trying to "poke holes" and "blow me out of the water", the old adage of "seconds count" in terms of fire/ems response is getting rather dated.
    JEMS, among other journals, has noted that when trying to reduce overall response time, the last place to try and do it is during the response phase.
    911 call receiving, dispatch, and out of station times are where most of the delay results, and are the aspects where the most improvements can be made. Trying to save a few seconds by driving faster to the station, or while responding, will very rarely have a positive outcome on the overall situation.
    This has been discussed in other forums; apparently the mind set of "seconds save lives" still permeates the fire service in general.
    When we as first responders recognize that not all 911 calls are truly
    emergenciesin the classical sense, there will be a decreased emphasis on hurried responses, and all parties involved will be safer.
    Let's focus on what can make our jobs safer while providing an excellent level of service, and worry a little less about trying to
    "diss" someone on a forum.
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts