Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber Firefighter1219's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Concord, Havana, FL USA
    Posts
    1,356

    Exclamation Multi Agency Response. Was this necessary?

    Last night I heard EMS tones drop for an overturned tractor-trailer on US 27 North at the state line. The area is only about 1 mile from where I live. I decided to take the call because no one was really sure where it was. Agencies from Georgia were also supposed to be en-route and BOLO the area. The call ended up being in Florida, at the intersection of US 27, GA 111, and FL County 157.

    I got on scene and was greeted by some hysterical passers-by who said a man was trapped. Naturally the battery in my handheld radio decided to die, so there was no way to notify dispatch of the situation. I went to the truck and gained access to the patient through the windshield (which was missing). The man was stable, AOx3, and his only complaint were his legs hurting and being pinned under and between the seat and the dash. The steering wheel was slightly pressing on his thighs. Diesel had spilled everywhere and there was a puddle standing on the ground. The man was hauling a full load of plywood on his flatbed, and the load ended up all over the side of the road.

    I needed some way to notify dispatch of the situation and found a bystander who was right behind me and talking on his cell phone to 911. I asked him for the phone, notified dispatch who I was and that they needed to page out the Concord Fire Department because the man was entrapped and we needed to extricate him. We weren't initially paged when EMS tones dropped, which is another problem that I will not get into right now (the call was in our primary territory). My pager started to go off about 2 minutes later. Then the nice dispatchers sent us a duplicate page about 20 times. Chief picked E6 and started to roll to us and advised dispatch he was rolling. Dispatch said that they didn't need us unless we have extrication equipment. Duh! What did I just say? I had told them the situation. Apparently Dispatch didn't know we had the right equipment, which is another problem.

    Well to make a long story short, 911 calls went to Florida and Georgia dispatch centers. No one was sure where the call was. Grady County Georgia toned their EMS, as well as Reno and Calvary Volunteer Fire Departments and Grady County SO. Decatur County Georgia paged out Decatur County EMS and Decatur County Fire Rescue Central Station and Decatur County SO. Florida paged Gadsden County EMS, Havana Volunteer Fire Department and Gadsden SO. Concord VFD wasn't added until I asked dispatch to do so. I had put LifeNet out of Tallahassee, FL on standby (due to MOI) when Gadsden SO got on scene.

    Before it was all over, we had Engine 6 from Concord, 2 engines from Havana, 1 engine from Calvary, 1 engine from Reno, 1 engine and 1 rescue from Decatur County, Gadsden EMS, Grady EMS, Decatur EMS, Gadsden SO, Decatur SO, Grady SO, 3 Florida Highway Patrol cars, and lots and lots of POVs with lots and lots of lights. People said they could see the glow from miles around while responding.

    I'm glad to know that all that help will come to our aid if we need them, but was it really necessary? Shouldn't someone have figured out where the call was and cancelled unnecessary units?

    Sorry for the rant.

    PS good work this morning Pat.
    TO/EMT CVFD (1219)
    EMT GEMS
    CPT/EMT MVFD
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Proud Member of IACOJ
    ---------------------------------------------------
    9-11-01 Never Forget FDNY 343


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber mtnfireguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    633

    Default Re: Multi Agency Response. Was this necessary?

    Originally posted by Firefighter1219
    No one was sure where the call was.
    The answer initially is YES....and the quote above from your post is the reason why.

    Far better to have to much help, than not enough or none at all. In some parts of the world the standard response to the incident you described would be to send a cop to find it first, then send the appropriate response.

    Sure, once someone of authority arrived and confirmed the location and the nature of the incident you could cancel some of the help.
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
    "Everybody Goes Home"

    IACOJ 2003

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber ramseycl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Next to the big ditch
    Posts
    489

    Default

    A prime example of callers not knowing what is really going on. We got a good snow last night this morning we got multiple 911 calls about an accident with entrapment, but no one knew the extent of the injuries because no one stopped to see. How they knew the people were trapped I'm not sure. We send fire/EMS and they have us launch a ship since the roads and bad and it is 15miles out of town. First unit on scene says no damage to vehicle no injuries, and the vehicle is out of the ditch. Dispatchers have to go on very limited information. People are anxious to call 911 to report things but they don't want to stop and get information. We ended up paging out three medical calls for vehicle accidents today and none ended up having injuries.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber Firefighter1219's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Concord, Havana, FL USA
    Posts
    1,356

    Default

    Sure, once someone of authority arrived and confirmed the location and the nature of the incident you could cancel some of the help.
    Much of the help (from GA) arrived long after the site of the accident was confirmed to be in FL. Everyone worked together pretty smoothly, but also everyone had their own idea about how to get the patient out.
    TO/EMT CVFD (1219)
    EMT GEMS
    CPT/EMT MVFD
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Proud Member of IACOJ
    ---------------------------------------------------
    9-11-01 Never Forget FDNY 343

  5. #5
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    first off, it's always better to have too many units on scene than too few. second, when you don't know where exactly the accident is, then every 911 caller who resports the MVC at a different location should get a full response (in this case, MVA with entrapment).

    this is typical whenever you have accidents on response area boundries. you have both florida and georgia state police taking the initial 911 calls (because that is where 911 calls from cell phones generally go). Then it gets transferred to the county dispatchers (assuming you are county dispatched. hence all the SOs. Then, you get the local department's dispatched. and remember, you are recieving multiple calls from people unsure where exactly the accident is. so every calls gets the closest location the caller can describe. hence all the units from different counties.

    you can send a cop to find it (if he can), or you can send a cop, sherrif, trooper, fire engine and ambulance to find it. which do you think has a better chance? and when the caller adviser it's a MVA with entrapment, keep in mind you want to get the person into a trauma center's surgery ward in the golden hour.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  6. #6
    Forum Member fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    First off, my theory is always keep "get 'em started and keep 'em coming until you confirm you don't need them' It's always easier to cancel than it is to get caught with your pants down and need additional resources. At the point you decide you need more, you have taken the time to get there, figure it out, request additional, wait for additional to get dispatched, crew up and respond.... See what I'm getting at.

    Keep in mind that this situation may have been compounded by the joyous thing knows as the 'cellular network'. We have a problem with the different carriers and what tower answer your cell call. In my area if a certain tower answers you get State Police dispatch in others you get my actual county and in a case that I was actually the caller I was greeted with an answer similar to 411 - "City and State of your Emergency Please!" If you are really that close to a state line like this incident it is possible that the Nextel tower in GA is getting a call, the Verizon tower in FL is getting it and so on. While cell phones are great for the ability to report a problem, the way they report them sometimes create havoc for public safety responders.

  7. #7
    Forum Member SpartanGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    489

    Default

    I agree with everyone else - bring em all initially. You never know what you might have, especially with a tractor trailer and an (at the time of dispatch) unknown load.


    No offense, but this post is also a great argument for making sure your portable is charged. What if you had been trapped on the third floor of a house instead of out on the highway with a patient who has minor injuries and needs a quick extrication?
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber mohican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    850

    Default In our coverage area

    I can stand in one spot, call 911 on my cell phone, and get several dispatch centers

    As a responser, when asking someone from the general public to call 911, you need to feed them specific information

    such as Unit xxx from xxx fire department is at (address/location) and request emts and firefighters.

    after that, you need to tell the guy on the cell phone what vehicles you need to respond.

    You always face the issue of multiple departments responding when you are in an overlapping jurisdiction. The only time is should be a negative is when it drains resources from another event occuring at the same time.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber Firefighter1219's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Concord, Havana, FL USA
    Posts
    1,356

    Default

    I wish I would have had a camera with me. The scene was quite a site to see. Someone that wasn't doing anything productive (which was most of the people on scene) decided to count heads. He counted 37 firefighters, not to mention all of the LEO and EMS workers. The local EPA officer even showed up and started trying to throw his weight around because of the spilled fuel. The dirt where the fuel spilled will probably have to be dug up and replcaced before it's all over with. My uniform boots and belt still wreak of diesel, and I ruined a pair of pants.

    As a responser, when asking someone from the general public to call 911, you need to feed them specific information
    I asked him for the phone, notified dispatch who I was and that they needed to page out the Concord Fire Department because the man was entrapped and we needed to extricate him.
    I think you may be misunderstanding what I said. I told them myself, not had a bystander do it.

    No offense, but this post is also a great argument for making sure your portable is charged.
    I usually have the radio charged. After I charge it, I take and put it in my car. I guess I will have to start putting it in the charger every time I get out of the car.
    TO/EMT CVFD (1219)
    EMT GEMS
    CPT/EMT MVFD
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Proud Member of IACOJ
    ---------------------------------------------------
    9-11-01 Never Forget FDNY 343

  10. #10
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    2,972

    Default

    For reasons already pointed out here, I think the response of all that help couldn't be avoided. But all the hanging around was definitely uncalled for.

    SOMEbody was in charge. Don't know who, but IMS dictates that somebody's fuzzy butt is the boss. When you have a territorial uncertainty (i.e., where on earth is the call?), that IC should know that maybe he needs departments A & B, but that he needs to send C, D, E, F, and whomever back home. Quickly.

    That ASSUMES that C, D, E, and F are DEFINITELY not needed.

    Any excess resources that are clearly not needed should be returned to quarters, period. This came up in an IMS class I took yesterday. Whether they're at the scene, en route, or in staging, if you flat out don't need them, send them back. They may need to cover calls for you, or--fancy this--they may have calls of their own to respond to.

    If they're at the scene and not needed, they are very expensive rubberneckers who are probably obstructing the path for EMS, and they are putting the rest of their territory in danger.

    Get 'em out of there ASAP.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  11. #11
    Forum Member kghemtp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    726

    Default Automatic mutual aid?

    Ok, at first glance I see no mention of possible "automatic mutual aid agreements" that might be established in areas where multiple agencies might be running the same distance. Case in point, our town responds automatic for 1 mile into the next city because that stretch of road is at the absolute maximum response distance for that city. Now, I am very familiar with automatic mutual aid, and I even have some experience with mix ups on the mutual aid run cards, where department X is automatic response to town Y, but department W is automatic response for department X, so there are 3 agencies now responding to the same thing, even if things all end up happening in town Z.

    So did Concord get on scene first? If not, then maybe we need to look at just how good it was that other agencies responded, and that should set precendence for changing how automatic mutual aid can be established or modified.

    Any chance you're just ****ed that your call wasn't the ONLY information being used to tone people out?
    ~Kevin
    Firefighter/Paramedic
    --^v--^v--^v--^v--
    Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong
    Dennis Miller

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber Firefighter1219's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Concord, Havana, FL USA
    Posts
    1,356

    Default

    I'm ****ed for a few reasons.

    1. Dispatch doesn't know what equipment we have.
    2. Dispatch wouldn't have added us to the call unless I asked.
    3. Dispatch didn't contact Georgia and let them know to cancel.
    4. It took Dispatch 2 minutes to page us after I told them to.
    5. Lots of people were standing around doing nothing.
    6. Dispatch isn't utilizing our department. We have 12 FFI, 10 FRs, 2 EMTs, 1 FFII and HazMat ops, and lots and lots of brand new equipment (more training and equipment than any other volunteer department in the county).
    TO/EMT CVFD (1219)
    EMT GEMS
    CPT/EMT MVFD
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Proud Member of IACOJ
    ---------------------------------------------------
    9-11-01 Never Forget FDNY 343

  13. #13
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    1. Dispatchers are dispatchers. they aren't firefighters, not should you expect them to know what equipment you have one your engines. if you are responding with an engine, i'm thinking you are bringing water, hose, and some axes. now, if you are rolling a heavy rescue, then I'm going to think you have extrication equipment on it. and I'm a firefighter, past Dispatcher, EMT.
    2. if they don't know where the call is, they only can rely on what they are told. if they aren't told it's in yoru primary area, they aren't going to dispatch you
    3. getting town dispatch centers to talk to each other is hard. getting county dispatch centers to talk to each other is even harder. getting dispatch centers to talk to each other when they reside in seperate states is near impossible. you have a better chance of buying your fav religious icon a beer.
    4. hmm, you think maybe they were a little busy, and with emergency units already responding, dispatching another one wasn't a priority? also, you have a civilian calling in saying he's on xyz dept requesting xyz department dispatched. you know xyz department gives their officers radios. and this guy is calling in on a cell phone, and the cell phone's owner isn't the person who the caller is claiming to be. think that might have crossed their mind?
    5. it happens. in that case, the IC should be sending people home. not the dispatchers fault.
    6. and how do you compare to the paid departments in your area? were there units responding? are their preset box alarms? are you on them, and the dispatcher just isn't dispatching you to them? were there any departments that were responding on an engine/rescue with a full crew of firefighters?

    you have a cluster, with several variables that complicated the scene. iot happens, get over it and move on. if you feel so strongly, write up a complaint, submit it to your chief, and have him follow up on it.

    Dan
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber Firefighter1219's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Concord, Havana, FL USA
    Posts
    1,356

    Default

    2. if they don't know where the call is, they only can rely on what they are told. if they aren't told it's in yoru primary area, they aren't going to dispatch you
    They know where our area is. We should have been dispatched to the call. They fail to notify us of calls over, and over and over. The Florida department that was paged had territory that ends about 5 miles south of the area where the call was supposed to be. Our area picks up there and extends north to the state line. What's so hard about interpreting 27 N at state line? That's our area. Plain and simple.

    3. getting town dispatch centers to talk to each other is hard. getting county dispatch centers to talk to each other is even harder. getting dispatch centers to talk to each other when they reside in seperate states is near impossible. you have a better chance of buying your fav religious icon a beer.
    Maybe in your area. They call each other on the phone all the time and request help, and do many other things.

    4. hmm, you think maybe they were a little busy, and with emergency units already responding, dispatching another one wasn't a priority? also, you have a civilian calling in saying he's on xyz dept requesting xyz department dispatched. you know xyz department gives their officers radios. and this guy is calling in on a cell phone, and the cell phone's owner isn't the person who the caller is claiming to be. think that might have crossed their mind?
    They know who I am. I have spoken with them on the phone many times. If they didn't believe me, then why did they page us? I don't care how busy they are, they have a legal responsibility to notify the correct department in a timely fashion.

    5. it happens. in that case, the IC should be sending people home. not the dispatchers fault.
    That was also part of the problem. I don't really think there was one. I still think that when Florida units arrived on scene and confirmed where the scene was, that the dispatchers should have gotten on the horn and cancelled everthing from other areas. My department didn't get on scene for a while because they weren't notified in a timely fashion.

    6. and how do you compare to the paid departments in your area? were there units responding? are their preset box alarms? are you on them, and the dispatcher just isn't dispatching you to them? were there any departments that were responding on an engine/rescue with a full crew of firefighters?
    There is only one paid department in the whole county. They don't run on county calls in this area unless the poop hits the fan. And if they did run here, it would take them 15 mintues or so and they would bring an engine with 1 officer and 2 firefighters. Havana VFD runs an extrication engine, just as we do. It's very rare to see a fully staffed engine around here. I can't say for sure, but I highly doubt the HVFD truck was fully staffed.

    The paid department is actually a city FD and they have a mutual-aid contract with the county. Volunteers handle almost everything by themselves in county areas. Volunteers also handle the rest of the cities and towns in the county.

    1. Dispatchers are dispatchers. they aren't firefighters, not should you expect them to know what equipment you have one your engines. if you are responding with an engine, i'm thinking you are bringing water, hose, and some axes. now, if you are rolling a heavy rescue, then I'm going to think you have extrication equipment on it. and I'm a firefighter, past Dispatcher, EMT.
    Even if we didn't have the equipment, which they have been notified that we do, we should have been added to the call.

    What if there was an MVA in your primary response area? Should the dispatch center notify the next closest fire department, just because that's the way it's always been done?

    Take a look at this. http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=57446
    Last edited by Firefighter1219; 11-11-2004 at 06:16 PM.
    TO/EMT CVFD (1219)
    EMT GEMS
    CPT/EMT MVFD
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Proud Member of IACOJ
    ---------------------------------------------------
    9-11-01 Never Forget FDNY 343

  15. #15
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Well, it sounds like you are really bent out of shape over this. Follow your chain of command. Write a letter to your Chief addressing your concerns. Give him enough time to address them and tell him you would like a response and go from there.

    There have been quite a few occassions where there have been incidents in our city and a neighboring FD is dispatched to them. Usually they respond, even knowing that the incident isn't anywhere near their jurisdictions. Sometimes it's on the border, but there have been quite a few that are obviously out of their district.......

    Sometimes they'll notify us, other times not. If you have a concern about something, address it to your chief so it can be handled........

  16. #16
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    in my primary area, we have a heavy rescue, so we would be dispatched. on my mother's squad, fire would not be dispatched for extrication duties, as they don't have any extrication equipment.

    write it up document it, give it to your chief, let him deal with it. unless you have 5 bugles on your helmet, it's no longer your problem
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  17. #17
    Forum Member Dave1105's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    148

    Default

    This isn't specific to this area.... only my own, but from a dispatchers POV.... Personally, I am sick and tired of FireFighters bitching and moaning about response areas where calls fall on, or near, the border. The fact of the matter here is response area's aren't defined by who's closest, or who can get there the quickest.... They're defined by years of petty bickering and dispute.

    We have area's all over the place where a Brigade will respond as primary up until a certain road..... Yet as soon as you cross that road, they are bumped down the wordback table to 5th or 6th response because the surrounding brigades don't like them...... Come on, we're the fire department here... not school children. I don't think this kind of thing is restricted to this part of the world either.....

    Rescue boundries are even worse.... especially when out here it can be cross-agency.... At least I only have two fire departments accross the whole state to deal with, I don't know how Yank dispatchers can handle it when you have individual departments for each city.... town... county.... whatever...

    And who cops it? The Dispatchers. Dispatchers can only work on the information given to them.... If someone tells me a car accident is at a certain intersection, then the job gets put in at that intersection and dispatched..... When it turns out that the accident is actually 50m to one side of the intersection, putting the accident in a different response area and joe blow firefighter from the department calls up 5 - 6 minutes after the brigade I have dispatched has been on the road and wants me to cancel them..... He politely gets told to f*ck off..... And I'm the one who gets the observation report??? Where's the logic in that....

    At the end of the day.... Did appropriate services get on scene quick enough to avoid anything untoward? Sounds like they did to me... So stop complaining about it. If the problem is larger (as you seem to indicate in your linked post) than just issues on response boundries.... then I suggest you and your department have serious talks with your dispatch centre....

    Also look at getting tours for everyone in your department so they understand how things work and why things happen.... It'll create a much better working enviornment between the two agencys.... Because at the end of the day, you two need each other.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    8

    Thumbs up Multi-agency response tool

    This is a great new (FREE) resource for multi-agency responses.

    The National Bioterrorism Civilian Medical Response Center has published a manual called, Strategies for Incident Preparedness. In it are 22 scenarios of complex medical emergencies and it is designed to integrate response procedure from fire, HAZMAT, pre-hospital, hospital, law enforcement, local and state government including emergency management agencies.

    It's a good resource because it doesn't tell you what to do. Rather it presents a scenario and forces you (and your team) to solve the problem, create solutions that could lead to multi-agency response. Imagine a unified response!


    Go to http://www.cimerc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107

    You will have to register, but everything is free.

    Keep up the good work!
    Chad "crash" Schaben

  19. #19
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Angry Not Again........................

    GUYS! LISTEN UP!! It's another one. I looked, nothing there REMOTELY relevant to this thread. Notification made to the WT.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts