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Thread: do leather helmets pass impact tests better than non-leathers ones?

  1. #26
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    Originally posted by Resq14
    The person who graduates last in class from medical school is called:















    Yes, a messed up analogy.
    I think the word thats missing is:

    DOCTOR

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    Lightbulb

    Take a TT and a Leather and stick them in an oven, see who wins. I think I'll stick with the one that dosnt drip to the bottom...

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    Originally posted by FULLYINVOLVED6
    Take a TT and a Leather and stick them in an oven, see who wins. I think I'll stick with the one that dosnt drip to the bottom...
    As I have said before...appearance does NOT equal performance. Just because one material holds its shape does NOT mean that it retains its resistance to impact or any other insult.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Originally posted by hfd66truck The person who graduates last in class from medical school is called:















    Yes, a messed up analogy.


    I think the word thats missing is:

    DOCTOR
    and would you want someone who graduated last in his/her class to be treating you, or someone who graduated first? so wouldn't the same apply to whatever is protecting your head?

    something to think about....
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    whatever .................
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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    Default Hmmmm...

    There is a professional football helmet sitting at my
    fire station. It is scratched and bruised up. The funny
    thing is NFL helmets are plastic and take more of a direct
    beating than most fire helmets I know on the job.

    Thats gotta say something.

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    Default Re: Hmmmm...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    There is a professional football helmet sitting at my
    fire station. It is scratched and bruised up. The funny
    thing is NFL helmets are plastic and take more of a direct
    beating than most fire helmets I know on the job.

    Thats gotta say something.
    That's comparing apples and oranges...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Default Hmmm...

    Really? I thought we were talking about protective head
    gear and impacting it with a blunt object?

    My bad.

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    Default Re: Hmmm...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    Really? I thought we were talking about protective head
    gear and impacting it with a blunt object?

    My bad.
    Bad Bou...

    NFL helmets don't get exposed to high temperatures...

    NFL helmets do get tossed when multimillionaire players throw hissyfits when flags get thrown on plays.

    The "blunt objects" that come in contact with NFL helmets are other NFL helmets!

    PS: how about those New England Patriots!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    well, if you are need to be treated by and EMT or Medic, would you rather be treated by someone who scored a 70 on the test (which is passing), or someone who got a 90? after all, they are both passing.
    Personally, I'd rather have the one that knows how to best treat his or her patients. I could care less how they did on their test. That's not always a good measure of a medic or EMT's street capabilities. Neither is their standing in their graduating class.

    I worked with a guy several years ago that was top dog in his medic class, but when under stress, couldn't have treated a patient if the orders were written on the patient's chest. Another wasn't flashy about his knowledge base, but was damned solid in the box.

    There is a professional football helmet sitting at my
    fire station. It is scratched and bruised up. The funny
    thing is NFL helmets are plastic and take more of a direct
    beating than most fire helmets I know on the job.

    Thats gotta say something.
    Unless the NFL's brain buckets have changed, the suspension/internal mechanisms are substantially different. I agree with Gonz; it's not a real good analogy, but it would be interesting to see what the differences are in the levels of energy imparted on the human melon.
    Steve Gallagher
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    Default Hmmm...

    All I know is that I thought we were talking about impacts
    to helmets. ie- An axe to a Bullard and how would a leather
    do?

    Ofcourse I expected this kind of response from leather heads.


    Considering the football helmet takes multiple impacts from
    250+lb players, it is something to consider since that is
    what this thread was talking about.:

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    It would seem to me that the types of impact we are talking about, people vs debris, are substantially different.

    When a 250lb linebacker hits and Offensive Lineman, both are moving at a relatively slow pace(compared to falling debris) and both will give during impact. The testing done for impact for Fire Helmets involves inanimate objects stiking the dome of a stationary helmet.

    Ofcourse I expected this kind of response from leather heads.
    Of course you expected it, you create the other side of it. Just like we expect nothing less from you.

    My earlier point is that most places/people do not compare ( I'm not even sure you can find the raw data) how a piece of equipment does versus another piece of equipment. Most places/people compare price of equipment that MEETS the standard.

    We have now reduced the leather vs plactic helmet to "which helmet scored higher" on the Standards test. Read the word... STANDARD. If a helmet meets the standard it will protect you according to the requirments set forth by the NFPA and OSHA.

    From Merriam Webster:

    3 : something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example : CRITERION
    4 : something set up and established by authority as a rule for the measure of quantity, weight, extent, value, or quality


    All I know is that I thought we were talking about impacts
    to helmets. ie- An axe to a Bullard and how would a leather
    do?
    We are Bou, and if your NFL helmet met the impact requirement for the NFPA Standard, you could wear that as well.
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 11-30-2004 at 08:36 AM.

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    Samson,You're damn lucky you didn't hurt yourself.The last time my guys tried to "kill"an old Firedome,they hit it with a sledge which kinda compressed the ol' Bullard and promptly pitched the sledge pretty near over their shoulder.This one,incidentally,was black.My take on hemets is this;if it's high enough and weighs enough all you will see is two black fire boots sticking out from under the helmet.Regardless of outer shell composition.I think we oughta send Bou a REAL lobster in a ice crate.Don't bother trying to sway him on leather,he doesn't have the "neck"for it! Sorry Bou;I just had to! Hehe T.C.

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    Default Well...

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    I think we oughta send Bou a REAL lobster in a ice crate.Don't bother trying to sway him on leather,he doesn't have the "neck"for it! Sorry Bou;I just had to! Hehe T.C.
    Yeah well...AGAIN...I have already worn a leather and it was
    just another piece of equipment with more weight. Trust me,
    I am in very good shape. I just completed one of the hardest
    fire agilities in the West Coast. (Biddle) I have the neck
    for it, but the brains as well.

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    Default HAIL SMART PEOPLE !

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU


    Yeah well...AGAIN...I have already worn a leather and it was
    just another piece of equipment with more weight. Trust me,
    I am in very good shape. I just completed one of the hardest
    fire agilities in the West Coast. (Biddle) I have the neck
    for it, but the brains as well.
    ......Dont forget the EGO too !
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Yeah well...AGAIN...I have already worn a leather and it was just another piece of equipment with more weight
    BOU
    A standard NFPA sam houston style leather helmet weights only 69 oz while most pleather helmets weigh anywhere from 60 to 64 oz showing only about a 5 to 10 oz difference. Also any pour sole who has to wear a salad bowl or TT should think about a different helmet because they don't like high temperatures.

    FULLYINVOLVED6 said it best and sums up my thoughts on plastic helmets even though this has nothing to do with impact performance.

    Take a TT and a Leather and stick them in an oven, see who wins. I think I'll stick with the one that dosnt drip to the bottom...
    FF. EMT-B M. Hesek
    Northborough Fire Dept
    Northborough MA

    NEVER FORGET DECEMBER 3rd '99

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    Which model leather helmet has the lowest profile?

    Rigin

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    To answer your question It depends on what modifications you make. Like which ear flaps you use ie the thick pbi or thin nomex, if you have a ratchet or not it will ride lower, or if you leave the padding in that covers the suspension.

    The leather helmet that has the lowest profile is a presentation helmet which I wear. Yes it is completely non NFPA compliant which is why I wear it.

    If leathers are so bad why does boston FD still spend the extra money to outfit ALL yes ALL of their firefighters with them?

    you can wear a leather helmet for your entire carreer no matter how long it is. but how long can you wear a plastic? not your hole career.

    you should pay for quality not quantity!!!!!!!
    FF. EMT-B M. Hesek
    Northborough Fire Dept
    Northborough MA

    NEVER FORGET DECEMBER 3rd '99

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    Originally posted by smatt2003

    If leathers are so bad why does boston FD still spend the extra money to outfit ALL yes ALL of their firefighters with them?

    you can wear a leather helmet for your entire carreer no matter how long it is. but how long can you wear a plastic? not your hole career.
    1. I would guess Boston wears leather for the same reason any firefighter does: TRADITION.
    2. You MUST stop confusing appearance with performance.
    3. Turnout gear doesn't last a whole career; why would you expect your gloves, boots or helmet to? Every exposure to heat and impact reduces the strenght of the helmet material...even leather.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Default Hmmm...

    When I think about a leather helmet, I think about Haz-Mat
    Tech. school. NOTHING leather is allowed in the hot and
    warm zones. Why? The leather absorbs the toxins and other
    bad stuff. Then you wear it and it absorbs in to your body.
    Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
    careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
    by my mouth and nose.

    I love this love, but dont want to spped up my death
    benefits because of it.

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    Default Re: Hmmm...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    When I think about a leather helmet, I think about Haz-Mat
    Tech. school. NOTHING leather is allowed in the hot and
    warm zones. Why? The leather absorbs the toxins and other
    bad stuff. Then you wear it and it absorbs in to your body.
    Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
    careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
    by my mouth and nose.

    I love this love, but dont want to spped up my death
    benefits because of it.
    That's why I keep my FD issued "Pleather" on the gear rack... and if my N5A gets contaminated, I can always pull out my N6A or get another "cow lid"... that's what clothing allowance is for

    Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
    careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
    by my mouth and nose.
    Absorted? Absnorted?
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 12-02-2004 at 01:13 PM.
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    Got a whole truck and trailer full of stuff for Hazmat so why would I expose my day to day gear to it? Short answer,I don't! If you prefer petroleum on your head to cow,far be it from me to tell you not to. Fortunately we live in a world of choices so many companies can stay employed not just one. I like "bustin" on Bou but he is in another place(and no offense intended)and in his "world" TT is the norm.Here on the East coast it's a different story.But it getting to the point that a lot of Depts can't afford cow,so I think you'll be seeing more tuppyware here too. But not on my skull,T.C.

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    I found this on the Houston FD's website about their PPE:

    Helmets
    The current issue helmet for HFD is the Ben Franklin-2 with goggles attached or with a 4'' shield. This helmet is made of molded "FYR-Glass", that should provide a lightweight, balanced fit. The material is stronger than Kelvar reinforced shells. Helmets have ear flap protection made of a PBI/Kelvar blend with an Aralite lining.

    NFPA 1971 requires helmet to be tested for impact resistance before and after being heat tested for 10 minutes 285F. Eye protection is required but may be in the form of a half shield or goggles.

    Helmet shields will begin to melt at 500F. The reflective squares will turn brown at 500F and begin to burn at 700F. Rubber coated helmets will begin to "sizzle" at 600F. Leather helmets are cured with a pinesap and will begin to degrade and ignite as little as 280F. These can "explode" in small chunks starting at 300F.
    now, I that knowledgable in this area, so I will ask, is this accurate? and if so, how does that weigh into the whole leather vs. plastic debate?

    and as a follow up, what is the typical temperature inside of a structure fire where interior operations are being performed?

    here is the site that has the info
    http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...er/Dec00CE.htm
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Good chance it is. Houston issued N6A's until about 8 yrs ago. But along with the reed hood the leathers did crack a lot faster due to super fast drying. Also the high heat.

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    Default WOW!

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    I found this on the Houston FD's website about their PPE:



    now, I that knowledgable in this area, so I will ask, is this accurate? and if so, how does that weigh into the whole leather vs. plastic debate?

    and as a follow up, what is the typical temperature inside of a structure fire where interior operations are being performed?

    here is the site that has the info
    http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...er/Dec00CE.htm
    280 degrees?!? Wow! thanks for the ammo on leathers.

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