do leather helmets pass impact tests better than non-leathers ones?

[smatt2003]

Yeah well...AGAIN...I have already worn a leather and it was just another piece of equipment with more weight

BOU
A standard NFPA sam houston style leather helmet weights only 69 oz while most pleather helmets weigh anywhere from 60 to 64 oz showing only about a 5 to 10 oz difference. Also any pour sole who has to wear a salad bowl or TT should think about a different helmet because they don't like high temperatures.

FULLYINVOLVED6 said it best and sums up my thoughts on plastic helmets even though this has nothing to do with impact performance.

Take a TT and a Leather and stick them in an oven, see who wins. I think I'll stick with the one that dosnt drip to the bottom...

[Rigin1]

Which model leather helmet has the lowest profile?

Rigin

[smatt2003]

To answer your question It depends on what modifications you make. Like which ear flaps you use ie the thick pbi or thin nomex, if you have a ratchet or not it will ride lower, or if you leave the padding in that covers the suspension.

The leather helmet that has the lowest profile is a presentation helmet which I wear. Yes it is completely non NFPA compliant which is why I wear it.

If leathers are so bad why does boston FD still spend the extra money to outfit ALL yes ALL of their firefighters with them?

you can wear a leather helmet for your entire carreer no matter how long it is. but how long can you wear a plastic? not your hole career.

you should pay for quality not quantity!!!!!!!

[Jonathan Bastian]

Originally posted by smatt2003

If leathers are so bad why does boston FD still spend the extra money to outfit ALL yes ALL of their firefighters with them?

you can wear a leather helmet for your entire carreer no matter how long it is. but how long can you wear a plastic? not your hole career.

1. I would guess Boston wears leather for the same reason any firefighter does: TRADITION.
2. You MUST stop confusing appearance with performance.
3. Turnout gear doesn't last a whole career; why would you expect your gloves, boots or helmet to? Every exposure to heat and impact reduces the strenght of the helmet material...even leather.

[CALFFBOU]

When I think about a leather helmet, I think about Haz-Mat
Tech. school. NOTHING leather is allowed in the hot and
warm zones. Why? The leather absorbs the toxins and other
bad stuff. Then you wear it and it absorbs in to your body.
Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
by my mouth and nose.

I love this love, but dont want to spped up my death
benefits because of it.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Originally posted by CALFFBOU
When I think about a leather helmet, I think about Haz-Mat
Tech. school. NOTHING leather is allowed in the hot and
warm zones. Why? The leather absorbs the toxins and other
bad stuff. Then you wear it and it absorbs in to your body.
Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
by my mouth and nose.

I love this love, but dont want to spped up my death
benefits because of it.

That's why I keep my FD issued "Pleather" on the gear rack... and if my N5A gets contaminated, I can always pull out my N6A or get another "cow lid"... that's what clothing allowance is for

Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
by my mouth and nose.

Absorted? Absnorted?

[Rescue101]

Got a whole truck and trailer full of stuff for Hazmat so why would I expose my day to day gear to it? Short answer,I don't! If you prefer petroleum on your head to cow,far be it from me to tell you not to. Fortunately we live in a world of choices so many companies can stay employed not just one. I like "bustin" on Bou but he is in another place(and no offense intended)and in his "world" TT is the norm.Here on the East coast it's a different story.But it getting to the point that a lot of Depts can't afford cow,so I think you'll be seeing more tuppyware here too. But not on my skull,T.C.

[HeavyRescueTech]

I found this on the Houston FD's website about their PPE:

Helmets
The current issue helmet for HFD is the Ben Franklin-2 with goggles attached or with a 4'' shield. This helmet is made of molded "FYR-Glass", that should provide a lightweight, balanced fit. The material is stronger than Kelvar reinforced shells. Helmets have ear flap protection made of a PBI/Kelvar blend with an Aralite lining.

NFPA 1971 requires helmet to be tested for impact resistance before and after being heat tested for 10 minutes 285°F. Eye protection is required but may be in the form of a half shield or goggles.

Helmet shields will begin to melt at 500°F. The reflective squares will turn brown at 500°F and begin to burn at 700°F. Rubber coated helmets will begin to "sizzle" at 600°F. Leather helmets are cured with a pinesap and will begin to degrade and ignite as little as 280°F. These can "explode" in small chunks starting at 300°F.

now, I that knowledgable in this area, so I will ask, is this accurate? and if so, how does that weigh into the whole leather vs. plastic debate?

and as a follow up, what is the typical temperature inside of a structure fire where interior operations are being performed?

here is the site that has the info
http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...er/Dec00CE.htm

[TC33FF]

Good chance it is. Houston issued N6A's until about 8 yrs ago. But along with the reed hood the leathers did crack a lot faster due to super fast drying. Also the high heat.

[CALFFBOU]

Originally posted by DrParasite
I found this on the Houston FD's website about their PPE:



now, I that knowledgable in this area, so I will ask, is this accurate? and if so, how does that weigh into the whole leather vs. plastic debate?

and as a follow up, what is the typical temperature inside of a structure fire where interior operations are being performed?

here is the site that has the info
http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...er/Dec00CE.htm

280 degrees?!? Wow! thanks for the ammo on leathers.

[Bones42]

Interesting how HFD (from the site) doesn't like the leather helmets, but all they offer is leather boots. I guess their feet never go near the heat.

[SamsonFCDES]

OMG, LMAO.

Leather helmets explode at 300 degrees.

Who would have thunk it.

Leather helmets might last your entire career...which happens to come to an end when you head explodes along with the pine sap soaked dead cow perched upon it like a peacocks fan of feathers.



I am going to ebay right now to find myself a fire knight helmet!

HA!

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

I would like to see proof of the statement that leather catches fire and explodes. It's fuuny, but if this were the case, why hasn't OSHA and the NFPA banned leather helmets yet?

We wear leather fire gloves and some of us wear leather fire boots...

Oh my God (or non existent deity for you atheists out there! )... now I'll have to worry about my hands and feet exploding in flames in addition to the safety of my personnel!

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
I would like to see proof of the statement that leather catches fire and explodes. It's fuuny, but if this were the case, why hasn't OSHA and the NFPA banned leather helmets yet?

We wear leather fire gloves and some of us wear leather fire boots...

Oh my God (or non existent deity for you atheists out there! )... now I'll have to worry about my hands and feet exploding in flames in addition to the safety of my personnel!

Fire gloves and boots are NOT treated with pine sap.

Leather helmets are.

Pine sap burns and can even explode, trust me, I have seen super heated pinetrees explode on many a forest fire.

Its all realy very simple.

Face it FOOLS, you are...



Enjoy your ticking timebombs of leathery death...

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Where is the proof? Just because HFD said it on their website?

[CALFFBOU]

Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
Pine sap burns and can even explode, trust me, I have seen super heated pinetrees explode on many a forest fire.

I have to admit, I have also seen this first hand on some of
those California fires.

[SamsonFCDES]

Gonzo dear Gonzo...

Here is ANOTHER chance for you to defend the honor of your precious dead cow...

Take your leather helmet, heat it up to 700 degrees for us, and then let us know at what temperature it explodes!

You already ran scared from the tupper ware axe test which I so gracefully demonstraited for those not of bovine.

I would imagine that Houston has done extensive testing of their PPE, just as many large metro departments do.

They evidently found something wrong with leather helmets.

I dont think that the HFD would spread misinformation, I dont think that the HFD would waste their time just to discredite leather, I dont think taht HFD realy cares about anything but one issue...

Providing the best possible PPE for their fire fighters.

Plastic/Kevlar/fiberglass helmets do NOT melt and drip, not todays helmets anyway.

Some are actualy STRONGER at 500 degrees then they are at room temperature. Thermo plastics are no joke.

Just ask FiremanJB, he is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (dont mean to put you on the spot JB, but you are basicaly the only one on the forum that truely speaks from authority on this matter ).

Leather simply does not offer any increased performance over tactical tupperware.

In fact it may seem that it offers less performance.

It definatly is more expensive.

But it can be made to meet the minimum standards...with the help of a plastic/kevlar inner liner!

[FlyingKiwi]

Gee Gonz,

With some of the brain dead posters in the forums, something had to have exploded damn close to their head.

[Rescue101]

Samson,me boy.Why don't you do a bit more research:ON REED HOODS! And then tell me just how smart HFD is.If I've got to wear a turnout coat over my N6a to enter a building because of heat levels;guess what? I'M NOT GOING! No disrespect to the brothers in Texas but that piece of equipment just puts me into the RDT's and puts my safety flag right into the red zone.I've put my leather into enviornments that were barely habitable and it hasn't exploded into flame yet.And try not to irritate Gonzo,we HAVE been known to make road trips. Hehe T.C.

[Jonathan Bastian]

Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
I would imagine that Houston has done extensive testing of their PPE, just as many large metro departments do.

Plastic/Kevlar/fiberglass helmets do NOT melt and drip, not todays helmets anyway.

Just ask FiremanJB, he is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (dont mean to put you on the spot JB, but you are basicaly the only one on the forum that truely speaks from authority on this matter ).

I don't see it as being on the spot. I have interjected fact and comment as appropriate. I'll gladly continue! My thoughts on the above:
1. HFD is probably repeating what they were "told" about leather, and if I had to wager, I would wager the source is the current supplier of fire helmets.
2. Extreme heat degrades the impact performance of all current helmet materials.
3. Again, the key is that appearance cannot be confused with performance. Certain materials, like turnout gear, shows degredation from heat. Others, like leather, Kevlar and fiberglass do not. Just because it holds it shape does NOT mean it will protect you from a brick dropping 2 stories.

In my (sometimes not so) humble opinion, the only reasons to wear leather: tradition and appearance. And note, those are not bad reasons. Just like Chicago's black over red firetrucks are painted that way for the same reasons. It isn't to improve visibility or performance or any of that...tradition and appearance.

Not bad reasons...but accept them as such.