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Thread: do leather helmets pass impact tests better than non-leathers ones?

  1. #41
    Member smatt2003's Avatar
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    Yeah well...AGAIN...I have already worn a leather and it was just another piece of equipment with more weight
    BOU
    A standard NFPA sam houston style leather helmet weights only 69 oz while most pleather helmets weigh anywhere from 60 to 64 oz showing only about a 5 to 10 oz difference. Also any pour sole who has to wear a salad bowl or TT should think about a different helmet because they don't like high temperatures.

    FULLYINVOLVED6 said it best and sums up my thoughts on plastic helmets even though this has nothing to do with impact performance.

    Take a TT and a Leather and stick them in an oven, see who wins. I think I'll stick with the one that dosnt drip to the bottom...
    FF. EMT-B M. Hesek
    Northborough Fire Dept
    Northborough MA

    NEVER FORGET DECEMBER 3rd '99


  2. #42
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    Which model leather helmet has the lowest profile?

    Rigin

  3. #43
    Member smatt2003's Avatar
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    To answer your question It depends on what modifications you make. Like which ear flaps you use ie the thick pbi or thin nomex, if you have a ratchet or not it will ride lower, or if you leave the padding in that covers the suspension.

    The leather helmet that has the lowest profile is a presentation helmet which I wear. Yes it is completely non NFPA compliant which is why I wear it.

    If leathers are so bad why does boston FD still spend the extra money to outfit ALL yes ALL of their firefighters with them?

    you can wear a leather helmet for your entire carreer no matter how long it is. but how long can you wear a plastic? not your hole career.

    you should pay for quality not quantity!!!!!!!
    FF. EMT-B M. Hesek
    Northborough Fire Dept
    Northborough MA

    NEVER FORGET DECEMBER 3rd '99

  4. #44
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by smatt2003

    If leathers are so bad why does boston FD still spend the extra money to outfit ALL yes ALL of their firefighters with them?

    you can wear a leather helmet for your entire carreer no matter how long it is. but how long can you wear a plastic? not your hole career.
    1. I would guess Boston wears leather for the same reason any firefighter does: TRADITION.
    2. You MUST stop confusing appearance with performance.
    3. Turnout gear doesn't last a whole career; why would you expect your gloves, boots or helmet to? Every exposure to heat and impact reduces the strenght of the helmet material...even leather.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  5. #45
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default Hmmm...

    When I think about a leather helmet, I think about Haz-Mat
    Tech. school. NOTHING leather is allowed in the hot and
    warm zones. Why? The leather absorbs the toxins and other
    bad stuff. Then you wear it and it absorbs in to your body.
    Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
    careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
    by my mouth and nose.

    I love this love, but dont want to spped up my death
    benefits because of it.

  6. #46
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hmmm...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    When I think about a leather helmet, I think about Haz-Mat
    Tech. school. NOTHING leather is allowed in the hot and
    warm zones. Why? The leather absorbs the toxins and other
    bad stuff. Then you wear it and it absorbs in to your body.
    Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
    careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
    by my mouth and nose.

    I love this love, but dont want to spped up my death
    benefits because of it.
    That's why I keep my FD issued "Pleather" on the gear rack... and if my N5A gets contaminated, I can always pull out my N6A or get another "cow lid"... that's what clothing allowance is for

    Yeah, thats what I want. A leather head that absorbs a
    careers worth of toxins and poisons just to be absorted
    by my mouth and nose.
    Absorted? Absnorted?
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 12-02-2004 at 12:13 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #47
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Got a whole truck and trailer full of stuff for Hazmat so why would I expose my day to day gear to it? Short answer,I don't! If you prefer petroleum on your head to cow,far be it from me to tell you not to. Fortunately we live in a world of choices so many companies can stay employed not just one. I like "bustin" on Bou but he is in another place(and no offense intended)and in his "world" TT is the norm.Here on the East coast it's a different story.But it getting to the point that a lot of Depts can't afford cow,so I think you'll be seeing more tuppyware here too. But not on my skull,T.C.

  8. #48
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    I found this on the Houston FD's website about their PPE:

    Helmets
    The current issue helmet for HFD is the Ben Franklin-2 with goggles attached or with a 4'' shield. This helmet is made of molded "FYR-Glass", that should provide a lightweight, balanced fit. The material is stronger than Kelvar reinforced shells. Helmets have ear flap protection made of a PBI/Kelvar blend with an Aralite lining.

    NFPA 1971 requires helmet to be tested for impact resistance before and after being heat tested for 10 minutes 285F. Eye protection is required but may be in the form of a half shield or goggles.

    Helmet shields will begin to melt at 500F. The reflective squares will turn brown at 500F and begin to burn at 700F. Rubber coated helmets will begin to "sizzle" at 600F. Leather helmets are cured with a pinesap and will begin to degrade and ignite as little as 280F. These can "explode" in small chunks starting at 300F.
    now, I that knowledgable in this area, so I will ask, is this accurate? and if so, how does that weigh into the whole leather vs. plastic debate?

    and as a follow up, what is the typical temperature inside of a structure fire where interior operations are being performed?

    here is the site that has the info
    http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...er/Dec00CE.htm
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  9. #49
    Forum Member TC33FF's Avatar
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    Good chance it is. Houston issued N6A's until about 8 yrs ago. But along with the reed hood the leathers did crack a lot faster due to super fast drying. Also the high heat.

  10. #50
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default WOW!

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    I found this on the Houston FD's website about their PPE:



    now, I that knowledgable in this area, so I will ask, is this accurate? and if so, how does that weigh into the whole leather vs. plastic debate?

    and as a follow up, what is the typical temperature inside of a structure fire where interior operations are being performed?

    here is the site that has the info
    http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fire...er/Dec00CE.htm
    280 degrees?!? Wow! thanks for the ammo on leathers.

  11. #51
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Interesting how HFD (from the site) doesn't like the leather helmets, but all they offer is leather boots. I guess their feet never go near the heat.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    OMG, LMAO.

    Leather helmets explode at 300 degrees.

    Who would have thunk it.

    Leather helmets might last your entire career...which happens to come to an end when you head explodes along with the pine sap soaked dead cow perched upon it like a peacocks fan of feathers.



    I am going to ebay right now to find myself a fire knight helmet!

    HA!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  13. #53
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    I would like to see proof of the statement that leather catches fire and explodes. It's fuuny, but if this were the case, why hasn't OSHA and the NFPA banned leather helmets yet?

    We wear leather fire gloves and some of us wear leather fire boots...

    Oh my God (or non existent deity for you atheists out there! )... now I'll have to worry about my hands and feet exploding in flames in addition to the safety of my personnel!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #54
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    I would like to see proof of the statement that leather catches fire and explodes. It's fuuny, but if this were the case, why hasn't OSHA and the NFPA banned leather helmets yet?

    We wear leather fire gloves and some of us wear leather fire boots...

    Oh my God (or non existent deity for you atheists out there! )... now I'll have to worry about my hands and feet exploding in flames in addition to the safety of my personnel!
    Fire gloves and boots are NOT treated with pine sap.

    Leather helmets are.

    Pine sap burns and can even explode, trust me, I have seen super heated pinetrees explode on many a forest fire.

    Its all realy very simple.

    Face it FOOLS, you are...



    Enjoy your ticking timebombs of leathery death...



    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  15. #55
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Where is the proof? Just because HFD said it on their website?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  16. #56
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Default Yes...

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    Pine sap burns and can even explode, trust me, I have seen super heated pinetrees explode on many a forest fire.
    I have to admit, I have also seen this first hand on some of
    those California fires.

  17. #57
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Gonzo dear Gonzo...

    Here is ANOTHER chance for you to defend the honor of your precious dead cow...

    Take your leather helmet, heat it up to 700 degrees for us, and then let us know at what temperature it explodes!

    You already ran scared from the tupper ware axe test which I so gracefully demonstraited for those not of bovine.

    I would imagine that Houston has done extensive testing of their PPE, just as many large metro departments do.

    They evidently found something wrong with leather helmets.

    I dont think that the HFD would spread misinformation, I dont think that the HFD would waste their time just to discredite leather, I dont think taht HFD realy cares about anything but one issue...

    Providing the best possible PPE for their fire fighters.

    Plastic/Kevlar/fiberglass helmets do NOT melt and drip, not todays helmets anyway.

    Some are actualy STRONGER at 500 degrees then they are at room temperature. Thermo plastics are no joke.

    Just ask FiremanJB, he is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (dont mean to put you on the spot JB, but you are basicaly the only one on the forum that truely speaks from authority on this matter ).

    Leather simply does not offer any increased performance over tactical tupperware.

    In fact it may seem that it offers less performance.

    It definatly is more expensive.

    But it can be made to meet the minimum standards...with the help of a plastic/kevlar inner liner!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  18. #58
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Gee Gonz,

    With some of the brain dead posters in the forums, something had to have exploded damn close to their head.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  19. #59
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Samson,me boy.Why don't you do a bit more research:ON REED HOODS! And then tell me just how smart HFD is.If I've got to wear a turnout coat over my N6a to enter a building because of heat levels;guess what? I'M NOT GOING! No disrespect to the brothers in Texas but that piece of equipment just puts me into the RDT's and puts my safety flag right into the red zone.I've put my leather into enviornments that were barely habitable and it hasn't exploded into flame yet.And try not to irritate Gonzo,we HAVE been known to make road trips. Hehe T.C.

  20. #60
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    I would imagine that Houston has done extensive testing of their PPE, just as many large metro departments do.

    Plastic/Kevlar/fiberglass helmets do NOT melt and drip, not todays helmets anyway.

    Just ask FiremanJB, he is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (dont mean to put you on the spot JB, but you are basicaly the only one on the forum that truely speaks from authority on this matter ).
    I don't see it as being on the spot. I have interjected fact and comment as appropriate. I'll gladly continue! My thoughts on the above:
    1. HFD is probably repeating what they were "told" about leather, and if I had to wager, I would wager the source is the current supplier of fire helmets.
    2. Extreme heat degrades the impact performance of all current helmet materials.
    3. Again, the key is that appearance cannot be confused with performance. Certain materials, like turnout gear, shows degredation from heat. Others, like leather, Kevlar and fiberglass do not. Just because it holds it shape does NOT mean it will protect you from a brick dropping 2 stories.

    In my (sometimes not so) humble opinion, the only reasons to wear leather: tradition and appearance. And note, those are not bad reasons. Just like Chicago's black over red firetrucks are painted that way for the same reasons. It isn't to improve visibility or performance or any of that...tradition and appearance.

    Not bad reasons...but accept them as such.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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