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Thread: Steering Wheel

  1. #21
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Mike,I haven't done one yet but I can see some potential problems under certain "crash"conditions.However,fore warned is forearmed.Anytime you create a "box"you create a strong area which in limited access could create a "trouble" spot.Be nice to get a few of these to experiment with. T.C.


  2. #22
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
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    Lutan,

    Could you please enlighten us as to which cars you cannot perform a dash lift or roll?

    I haven't come across one that couldn't be done.
    My apologies to fdsq10 and others- I've had fuster cluck in my head- I was thinking of a steering wheel pull

    However, I still stand by my post that a cutting of the steering wheel rim can be done far quicker than a dash roll or lift- remember options....
    Luke

  3. #23
    Forum Member martinm's Avatar
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    We always train not to cut the steering wheel or column. Cutting the wheel will mor than likely deploy the airbag, cutting the column may well release the tension thats in there and force the base of it out and into a patients legs.

    There is a case in the UK where the residual charge from the radio cassette in a crashed vehicle was enough to deploy the airbag, as the wiring looms had been corrupted and touched when the car was moved.

    Luckily, this occurred following recovery of the vehicle and whilst it was being examined by the police. Fortunately the police officer was sitting in the passenger seat and not the drivers.
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  4. #24
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Cutting the wheel will mor than likely deploy the airbag
    Ok, this has me really curious. I really am having a hard time figuring how cutting the wheel is going to have any effect on the airbag system. The airbag "system" is in the center of the wheel or hub, there is nothing involved with the "system" in the outside of the wheel. There is (should be) very little shock or movement in cutting the wheel itself. All the points about the column I do agree with.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #25
    Forum Member martinm's Avatar
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    Bones, we are taught, and I train other F/F's not to cut the steering wheels of vehicles fitted with airbags, due to the high risk of deployment. This could occur by deforming the wheel to the point that the wiring or squibs snap and therefore deploy the bag. As little as 1/2 an amp or less, will be enough to let one go and we'd rather not have an Amkus cutter attached to a steering wheel which is about to go though the drivers face, possibly with one of my crews hands still on it.

    The risks, and examples of what will, not can happen are there for us all to see. I just go with whats best. Not cutting the steering wheel.
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  6. #26
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
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    I'm with bones here. where does all this stuff come out about the hazards with airbags and cutting wheels, etc?

    Is is scare mongering or just plain misunderstanding or not knowing so people teach the wrong stuff? I get really frustrated with unsupported facts in rescue. I've argued planty of times that it is about time an idnependant organization (Not a Fire Department or an equipment supplier) test airbag restraint devices for example. Maybe the same should be done for rescue techniques around undeployed airbags....
    Luke

  7. #27
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Had an interesting 3 car crash in our neighboring town yesterday involving an Audi with bags galore.Upon arrival,a slightly injured driver with the DRIVERS bag only deployed.Some thought was given to taking the roof due to mechanism but the ranking Deputy Chief opted to remove the door and "pop" the passenger door for access.The patient was "Kedded"and slid out on a long board.Towing company shows up to load the wreck and slams the passenger door shut.ALL THE BAGS THEN DROPPED!that was an eyeopener.I don't know if the tow truck driver has got the stain out yet or not. T.C.

  8. #28
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    Lutan 1 no problem we all have days like that. Knowing that this bar exist in certain types of vehicles is knowledge in your tool kit, use it to your advantage. if it exist make good relief cuts in front of your struts, and a large pie wedge cut low on your rocker panel, crib under the rocker panel place spreader and lift the dash has worked, or make the same relief cuts then use your long ram in the center of the dash pushing on this bar from the rear seat has worked. Remember from previous post have a plan and be able to adjust if the first one did not work. If anyone has done this please comment, this is great stuff for all of us. Stay safe.

  9. #29
    Forum Member martinm's Avatar
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    Is is scare mongering or just plain misunderstanding or not knowing so people teach the wrong stuff?
    Lutan, I think the hazards of any airbag fitted ot a vehicle are there for us to see and be aware, and wary of and the training that is imparted is not scaremongering. we teach people to rescognise signs of backdraughts etc and what not to do when confronted with one. why tell people to interfere with a rocket fuel propelled device? More and more vehicles have multiple airbags fitted, and dependiong on the type of collision, some may not activate. Although I have not personally been present at an incident where a bag has deployed "post crash", I have seen plenty of video evidence, both of actual events and training scenarios to make me treat these things with the utmost respect.

    We used to be very wary of the gas filled struts that held open the tailgates on hatchbacks and I beleive there is a post somwhere on here about problems encountered with struts fitted to the bonnets (hoods) of cars injuring firefighters, so it stands to reason we whould be wary of any electrically/electronic device fitted to a vehicle.

    Whilst I am not advocating the "better not touch that coz it might go off" line, we have to be very circumspect about how and why we would want to do somthing like cutting a steering wheel. I agree that not all situations will allow a dash roll, or sliding a seat away from the wheel, but we should'nt be tempted into interfering with a device such as a drivers airbag if it has'nt deployed already, by cutting the wheel, or placing devices such as "bag busters" over the wheel. These items of equipment were trialled sometime ago by my service and were deemed to put the firefighter & casualty at too much risk. The suppliers also were'nt too keen on guaranteeing that the device would prevent all types of bags in all types of vehicle from deploying. So now we avoid getting in the way of the steering wheel at all times. It may take slightly longer but there is always "another way"
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  10. #30
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Martinm, see my attached picture. Other than the fact the cut should be made from the other side so the operator is not reaching across the wheel, I have a hard time imagining this would have any effect at all on the airbag system. It's not forcing, deforming, compromising, etc. anything near the airbag nor it's sensors.
    Last edited by Bones42; 03-15-2011 at 09:38 AM.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #31
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
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    Whilst I am not advocating the "better not touch that coz it might go off" line, we have to be very circumspect about how and why we would want to do somthing
    And I'm not going the other way either, I just want FACTS and the facts MUST come from an independant source to once and for all put this to bed....

    I have a hard time imagining this would have any effect at all on the airbag system. It's not forcing, deforming, compromising, etc. anything near the airbag nor it's sensors.
    I'm still backing Bones on this one
    Luke

  12. #32
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    I've got no issue cutting the wheel although I wouldn't have the tool positioned as it's shown in the photo.Straight in from the OUTSIDE on both sides,remove section and go.Everything you do around an airbag equipped vehicle is a calculated risk,but proper evaluation and risk management will allow you to do a lot of work with minimum exposure. T.C.

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber NB87JW's Avatar
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    Nice re-hash of an old (important) topic huh fellas? I like it. Many excellent points made by all. Airbags (SRS) have changed the way we look at things for sure. Many of us remember pulling the steering columns as a routine years back, then with different vehicle technology for columns along with vehicle rescue technology has evolved in to what is suppose to be more reasonable, sensible and safer approaches.

    Rolling or Lifting/Jacking a dash are a snap and most often the chosen route of making space. Cutting the Column is far different than cutting the steering wheel "ring". There are real safety concerns (as expressed by many here) with regard to cutting the column. Specifically, the "potential" airbag deployment and and as mentioned by Luke (Lutan) the release of the wheel if it were cut (pressure cut) and the energy released rearward in to the driver and rescuers. This material (some of the makers I believe use HSLA's in some of their columns) like we see in collision beams can be very volatile when compressed (by the cutters) until it breaks (not slices) and sends the energy in opposing directions (forward and rearward).

    Never say never and never say always, but I try to never cut a column and will continue A)cutting steering wheel rings (gains 4"-8"), B) tilting the steering wheels up (gaining 1"-3" more), moving seats back (if possible), C)moving dashes away, and D)use the 5-10-20 rule.

    Nice thread here, good discussion. Thanks for the insight.

    Be safe.

    Fraternally, Jordan
    "Making Sense with Common Sense"
    Motor Vehicle Rescue Consultants
    ( MVRC@comcast.net) Jordan Sr.

  14. #34
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
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    Good post Jordan

    How are you? Long time no hear
    Luke

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