San Francisco FD `Rescue Squad`

[UKAndy2004]

Hi Guys,
Firstly, hello to you people from the UK! Am pretty much a first time user to this site so take it easy on me!
My names Andy, and i`m a full time Firefighter in Merseyside, England.
A question though if I may, I recently watched a very interesting programme on TV called `The Bravest` it featured Rescue Squad 2 of the San Francisco FD. I was pretty surprised to see crews riding in the back of the appliance (sorry apparatus!) in the open - in this country the brigade and health & safety people would have a fit if this happened!
Is this usual practice in the states or would it have been for the benefit of the cameras?

Take care
Andy

[CaptOldTimer]

In movies and TV shows that is the way those scenes are shown. In the real world, for the most part, that doesn't happen. You have to understand the American Movie makers and the tele show makers.

Don't beleive what you see in the movies or the tele as the REAL thing.

[CALFFBOU]

Sir- Welcome to the forums. I will answer your question but I
need to state something first. I will only state some brutal
facts, but not hammering or insulting the agency you are
speaking of.

Ok...


The fire department you are asking about is very, very
traditional. From the numerous sources I have, this is very
common for them. It is just the way they do things there.

Yes, most safety offices aka OSHA would have a big problem
with this, but again, it is just the norm. A little over a year
ago, a member was killed on an apparatus responding to an
airport emergency. I dont have the facts, but it was in a recent issue of Firehouse Magazine.

It saddens me to lose a Firefighter this way. I havent heard if
much has changed. I am ont going to go off on a rant becuase most
people in here already know how I feel.

[gordoffemt]

In movies and TV shows that is the way those scenes are shown. In the real world, for the most part, that doesn't happen. You have to understand the American Movie makers and the tele show makers.

This would be true if, in fact, the TV program "The Bravest" were a dramatization of the American fire service. It is, however, a real life "ride-along," if you will, with real U.S. departments, similar to the TV program "Cops."

So, my right and honorable friend from the UK (Isn't that how your members of parliament speak to each other? I get bored and watch the BBC sometime.) you were correct to be amazed at the sight of firefighters riding in the open air. This does not happen anywhere near my home, that I know of, nor is it a widely accepted practice in the American fire service. But, as a previous post stated quite accurately, the folks in San Francisco continue to respond in that manner. Good or bad, right or wrong, stupid or reckless, that's the way they do business.

Welcome aboard! Hope to hear from you again.

[Resq14]

I believe that apparatus in question was replaced with a more modern style -- complete with enclosed seats for everyone -- if I recall correctly.

[Bones42]

nor is it a widely accepted practice in the American fire service

anymore.

[UKAndy2004]

Guys,

Many thanks for the swiftest of responses! Suitably impressed as it was only 90 minutes ago I posted the question (since then I watched my beloved football team (soccer) Liverpool, crash to defeat in the Champions League :-( !

I can only pressume that in MOST parts of the USA, you guys ride forward facing? In jolly old England (where we speak posh, have a queen and drink tea from cups and saucers!) we ride two in the front of the cab (driver and OIC) then have four seats in the rear which usually rides two or three guys.

Just one last thing on the San Francisco FD, one of our guys went on holiday over their last year and claims they still use wooden ladders and leather helmets! I pressume the former is due to the tram tracks?

Best wishes to all and any questions you have about the UK, feel free to contact

Andy

[DennisTheMenace]

Originally posted by UKAndy2004
Guys,

Just one last thing on the San Francisco FD, one of our guys went on holiday over their last year and claims they still use wooden ladders and leather helmets! I pressume the former is due to the tram tracks?

Best wishes to all and any questions you have about the UK, feel free to contact

Andy

Both are kept around for tradition. Although the merits of leather vs plastic helmets has been well debated here.

[HeavyRescueTech]

Originally posted by UKAndy2004
I can only pressume that in MOST parts of the USA, you guys ride forward facing? In jolly old England (where we speak posh, have a queen and drink tea from cups and saucers!) we ride two in the front of the cab (driver and OIC) then have four seats in the rear which usually rides two or three guys.

Just one last thing on the San Francisco FD, one of our guys went on holiday over their last year and claims they still use wooden ladders and leather helmets! I pressume the former is due to the tram tracks?

Andy, in most apparatus I've seen, it's usually driver/officer, then two seats facing back (directly behind the driver/officer) and two more looking forward (again, in line with the driver/officer), or four seats all facing back.

and from what I have been told, many west coast depts, especially those in california, still use wooden ladders. the rest of the nation (money permitting) has upgraded to metal ladders, and many traditionalist departments are still using leather helmets or at least leather style helmets.

[FFFRED]

I would hesitate to use the term "upgrade" when discussing movement from Wooden to metal ladders. In fact John Mittendorf offers a complelling argument for wooden being far supperior.

FTM-PTB

[SON044]

Since the leather helmets have been thouroughly flogged before now, let me speak in defense of wooden ladders.
First they are nonconductive, secondly they can withstand direct flame impingement without catastrophic failure.Finally they flex less than aluminum when you climb them. Admittedly they are not perfect and are much heavier but the benefits seem to outweigh the disadvantages.
SFFD is a top notch department enmeshed in some painful turmoil. But being Old School is not a condemnation and I would work next to an SFFD company anytime.

[CALFFBOU]

Wooden ladders? Been using alumimum for around 16 years and
never had a problem with them. Less mainteance and LIGHTER.

I can hear it now- "Oh Gee Bou, why does everything have to
be lighter, progressive, etc..."

Tell ya what, my current FD uses wooden ladders based solely
on tradition. And I look around and some guys are getting sore
and bad backs.

Do the math? Is your career and family's well being worth
the tradition of retiring out early because of a f-ed up back?
God, we keep coming back to this "tradition over everything
attitude" Thats why we keep having these alcohol incidents
in the stations/firehouses. Its a way of thinking.

Go ahead and blow your back out, I will still be riding the
big red truck.

[SON044]

BOU,
If you think an Aluminum ladder can't hurt you you're nuts. It just hurts in different ways. We also went to aluminum in the 80's. But the ladders just were not good working platforms.
If people are getting hurt throwing ladders then maybe you don't have sufficent personnel to handle the throw safely. I don't know your situation well enough to speak in a comparative way. Let's talk more.

[CALFFBOU]

Like I said, I have been throwning alum. ladders for years, no
problems and never got shocked. My back is good.

Other guys with the wooden ones, bad backs after years.
Oh well. It is not a lack of personnel or the way they
are throeing them. They are just too damn heavy.

[FFFRED]

Bou,

I find it interesting you don't like Wooden ladders. Chief Mittendorf, who is also from the most progressive firefighting state has published articles with listing of weights for compareable sizes of portable ladders for aluminum, wood and fiberglass and in reality the wooden ones aren't any heavier than aluminum in most cases and also offer the benefit of less conductivity.

Both Aluminium and wood were much lighter than compareable fire service fiberglass ladders.

FTM-PTB

[TillerMan25]

UKAndy, the SFFD rig you are referring to is/was a Seagrave Bullet Nose Rescue. It was the 1950/60's model where the Driver and Officer rode in the cab and the rest of the Crew rode in a walkway style bench where a traditional hosebed would be. I remember seeing that unit in a show about the SFFD a while ago. I heard it was a Reserve Rescue, it looked like a beast to drive.

I think Wooden Ladders have their place. I read somewhere that the SFFD uses them because of the Street Car Electric lines that run above street level. I do think Aluminum ladders are lighter and much easier to throw if you are understaffed. Remember, the SFFD runs 5-Man Truck Companies. They actually have a 50-Foot wooden extension ladder on all their truck companies too. And yeah, they use 100% Tiller Trucks, Leather Helmets, Long Black Coats and GASP! THREE QUARTER BOOTS WITH NO NOMEX HOODS!

SFFD is definately the shining star of tradition on the West Coast. LAFD isn't too far behind them using Wooden Ladders as well.

BOU, I guess if you know how to raise a ground ladder the proper way (CHECKING FOR OVERHEAD OBSTRUCTIONS!) You won't get shocked right?

[DennisTheMenace]

For a traditional department, what are they doing with Quints?!?!?!?

[CALFFBOU]

Originally posted by FFFRED
Bou,

I find it interesting you don't like Wooden ladders. Chief Mittendorf, who is also from the most progressive firefighting state has published articles with listing of weights for compareable sizes of portable ladders for aluminum, wood and fiberglass and in reality the wooden ones aren't any heavier than aluminum in most cases and also offer the benefit of less conductivity.

Both Aluminium and wood were much lighter than compareable
fire service fiberglass ladders.

Hey FFFred, I can only draw on my personal experiences.
I have used alum. ladders for a long time with no problems.
(Ofcourse I look for over head wires and obstructions.)
Now I use wooden ladders and see a difference. Just my
experiences.

I also admit not working with fiberglass ladders, except the
smaller, folding ones.

I do know JM has written some great articles. I just havent
read them. I have attended one of his classes, but ladders
were not covered. (RIC/safety class)

As for the SFFD, I dont work there and only get feedback from
some sources and what I read.

-Bou

[ThNozzleman]

it featured Rescue Squad 2 of the San Francisco FD.

I believe that very truck was featured in one of the "Emergency!" movies. Kind of interesting.
http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/pl8s/E!MF33.htm

[KingHippo]

"And yeah, they use 100% Tiller Trucks, Leather Helmets, Long Black Coats and GASP! THREE QUARTER BOOTS WITH NO NOMEX HOODS!"

Actually, they're issued plastic helmets, and they went to full bunkers a while ago.

Right now, there's only one FD left (as far as I know) that still lets the guys have the option of wearing wear wools instead of bunker pants :

http://www.cityofsacramento.org/fire...y012204_28.jpg

http://www.cityofsacramento.org/fire...d072003_02.jpg

http://www.cityofsacramento.org/fire...r061504_43.jpg

I can already hear some of you yelling at the computer screen- pretty non-progressive, huh? But they also have a FEMA USAR team, the best driver training program in the nation, and an engine spec so nice departments all across the coun try have copied it.