1. #1
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    Default Cops Telling FD How to Extricate

    Just when you think you have it bad comes a desperate pleas from a California FD. Look at the problems they are having in one county with the police agency at crash scenes....

    Subject: Who runs the call?

    Ron, I have some recent issues with our local law enforcement about extrication. Issues like lowering the vehicle to stepblocks, removing or flapping roofs and standard techniques utilized to extricate live / critical patients. I realize that they have statutory responsibility for the road, but they are attempting to dictate our tactics based on their investigation.

    After asking a deputy two times to leave our "circle of safety", she stated to the BC on the call that we were interfering with a crime scene investigation. Hogwash, this was nothing more than a typical rescue.

    I will be meeting with their "expert" to discuss these problems. Can you provide me with information to fortify our position as far as our responsibility for the extrication and patient care. I am quoting your extrication manual for vehicle stabilization. I need other sources, NFPA and industry standards to support my position.
    Can you help?
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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    How about state laws? I know in OH, id the fire department is dispatched to an MVA, the fire chief or his designee (senior officer/FF on scene) is in charge until they release it to the PD, or something to that effect. I'll see if I can find it......

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    Just asking, WHO wants to take the responsibility for any consequences if something goes wrong during extrication?
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
    BIG RIG RESCUE

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    In CA, it is Health and Safety Codes which give precedence over crime scene concerns. Don't remember which ones. It was in an Investigations class I took years ago.

    It is the law which allows FD and PD to kick in doors if they believe there is life threatening event irrespective (for PD anyway) if the possess a warrant to enter.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    another example of why we need to meet, face to face, with those in charge and iron these things out ahead of time, not while on a call.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Most likely that's already been discussed beforehand...

    And one Miss Deputy is about to get a discussion from a Supervisor.

    Rescue & Incident Stabilization take precedence over investigation when there is a conflict in goals.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

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    Does the police department ask you not to move a victum{that is still alive} of a stabbing or shooting so you dont destroy the crime scene on a ems call?

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    Sounds like a power trip. I live in Canada and weather a crime scene or not the fire department is in control until released to the pd. That includes traffic. Safety, Safety, Safety

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    Have we ever told them how to catch bad guys??

    Zmag

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    Fire deparartment is in control of entire scene, until rendered safe.

    Police for traffic control.

    Ontario, Canada

    How is it going Z?

    Longing for Tim's coffee?

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    Actually, I will be crossing the border between Christmas and New Years with a load of tools. I plan to return with lots of Timmies and a few Bubbas.

    For all of the non-bilingual yanks who don't speak Canadian. Timmies is Tim Hortons ... the best coffee and donuts in the entire world. Always bring a few 3 pound cans along home. And Bubbas ... well, you have to see them to believe them. It's just a Canadian can of beer... about 5 liters!!. Trust me guys, in many areas, our friends to the north are WAY ahead of us. It aint just hockey.

    Zmag

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    Originally posted by Zmagrescue
    Trust me guys, in many areas, our friends to the north are WAY ahead of us. It aint just hockey. Zmag
    ITS ALL ABOUT THE HOCKEY!

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    Zmag,
    You are aware that the Buffalo/Niagara Region has Timmies now. In fact depending on your selected boarder crossing you may actually pass one on the way. I would suspect that you are taking the Lewiston Queenston Bridge? Get off at the Porter Road exit in Niagara Falls turn right, it will be on the left across from car quest and K-mart.

    Just saving you duty!
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Hey,

    We had one a few years back. It was late September pouring rain in the middle of the night, car vs truck collision face to face. We're working on the driver of the car (pretty badly hurt) after flaping the roof we deceide to roll the dash. As we're working on setting up the dash roll the !"/$%?& top keeps coming back down. I turn around and kind of make it clear to the first FF my eyes catch to secure the !"/$%?& roof!! He look at me and point to the cop standing beside the car. It was the cop!! He was bringing the top down 'cause he was concerned that the patient would catch a cold!!! Lost the patient in ER 2 hours later (would have lost her anyway, but still...).

    It's been 6 or 7 years, still can't beleive it!!!

    Regards,

    Sly

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    At least he was being concerned for patient

    We had once incident of this hostile nature here with the PD but it was resolved within a day or two. It was midnight, shift change, about 110 degrees and the humidity was roughly 99.9%. Basicly, hell. Everyone was hot and stressed out, they wanted to go home, we wanted to do what we had to do, and it got ugly. By the next day, everyone involved manged to make up and move on and we get along fine now.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Default REVENGE

    A department - I think it was in the southern part of the province, was called to a MVC. I think it was a car vs train. Police arrived first on scene and removed the patient from the car to the police cruiser. Arriving EMS and Fire crews decided extrication was required. I believe they flaped the roof of the PC. Wrote the PC off. Lesson learned - dont touch the patient if you dont know what your doing! I will try to find this story, just because it is so ubelievably funny to read.

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    Default police Problems

    We have the problems of our police being medical responders. The arrive at a MVA and the officer on scene decides to call Fire or not. Some of the officers get a power trip and try to dictate ptient care and extrication. All of them are only MFR. It does cause problems when some of the Fire department hold Medic and Basic levels. This has been an ugly situaton for years and now signs of letting up. If anyone has information on what laws or statutes require the FD to be called to MVAs Please let me know...

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    Default Re: police Problems

    Originally posted by Pelton22
    We have the problems of our police being medical responders. The arrive at a MVA and the officer on scene decides to call Fire or not. Some of the officers get a power trip and try to dictate ptient care and extrication. All of them are only MFR. It does cause problems when some of the Fire department hold Medic and Basic levels. This has been an ugly situaton for years and now signs of letting up. If anyone has information on what laws or statutes require the FD to be called to MVAs Please let me know...
    easy to change, and you don't need a law to do is. change your dispatch SOPs. if it an MVA with out injuries, only the cops are needed. if there are any injuries (even if they don't want transport), then fire rescue must be dispatched. and if PD complains, just tell than that they will be sued for millions when the police officer doesn't call for EMS after a person is injured in a MVA. the potential for liability is usually something PD will gladly get rid of.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Dr. P,Yeah they tried that here.Roll over,single vehicle,minor PI.Cops and Rescue responded,hold Fire they're not needed(we're supposed to roll on ANY PI).One of my guys showed up,walked over to the vehicle and requested Fire asap. Cop came unglued."Under what authority are YOU requesting FIRE?".My guy says,"Kemmere and tell me what you smell".Cop says "Propane?" "Good guess genius!" Two twenty pounders in the trunk,one with a compromised valve.Needless to say,it made for an interesting discussion at the next Town Dept. head meeting. T.C.

  20. #20
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    Default

    Once, got into a screaming match with a PSP trooper, I guy rolled his pickup over the side (20+ feet down), trying to avoid a pink elephant. The trooper didn't want his interstate shut down.

    After yelling for 2-3 minutes, I turned to the Lt, and told him to set up the LZ in the interchange, and walked away from the trooper. He kept after me for another minute or two. When the next due rescue arrived in the opposite direction, blocking all travel lanes in both directions, the trooper walked away, very ****ed. Luckily, I didn't request the rescue, the chief did.

    Saw him twice in the next few days, both for psych patients. One who locked himself in the house with guns. When I refused to take both patient's to the hospital, because I "didn't feel safe", he became very chummy (both patients were really non-violent). We had a brief conversation, and he appologized profusly for the previous accident call. It helped that a senior officer was with him, and heard my frustration.

    It was amazing how nice he was after that. A little understanding (of the patient is more important that the roadway) goes a long way.
    My opinions are my own, etc. Everything that Ozzy writes here, except spelled correctly.

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    we have not had any of this with our local law enforcement, a long time ago the Stateies got a little miffed about shutting down the interstate but past the moment of cranky attitude that was and has been it.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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