Rubber vs polyurethane lined fire hose

[lance38]

I need some help from the hose experts. What are the pro's and con's of rubber vs polyurethane lined hose. I know rubber is heavier but any other info would be appreciated. Thanks

[Dalmatian90]

Less chance of delamination (the rubber coming lose, which can cause additional friction)

The polyurethane "bonds" into the jacket, which I suspect makes a bit bigger inside diameter for the same outside diameter...little differences can reduce friction loss by a surprising amount.

Polyurethane is also slipperier than rubber, further reducing friction.

Ponn Conquest is a Polyurethane lined hose -- and their flow numbers for same nozzle & pump pressure have their 1.75" Conquest hose performing in the range of conventional 2" hose.

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Hose is a pet peeve of mine, because you have so many little factors that make a difference between a quality line and a low bid.

Quality lines have fairly "slippery" jackets that pull easily (I ********HATE********* friggin nitrile rubber jacket hose like Angus' Chief line...leave that for supply lines you don't have to advance).

Quality lines have couplings that are "beveled" on the hose side, instead of just cut at a right angle -- that way they don't snag nearly as easily on corners and door edges.

Quality lines have much lower FL than what the charts in most books...based on 1970ish technology...show.

And one last thing -- a quality line is one that's bought to do the right job. You may trade off some other stuff to get a lighter weight, tighter packing hose for stairpack operations...while buying a bit heavier duty hose for your day to day operations.

[lance38]

Thanks Dal you were a great help.

[FyredUp]

While I respect Dal's comments I disagree with him on the nitrile rubber hose.

All of our 2 inch attack lines, as well as most of our 3 inch hose and all of our 5 inch hose is the nitrile rubber. We have had no problems at all reported by our firefighters in advancing this hose. We use 2 inch hose as our attack lines for flows from 160 gpm to 300 gpm and usually it is moved by 2 or 3 firefighters. We bought nitrile rubber hose because it suits our need for quick turn around to get the vollies back to work as quick as possible. And so far it has not had an adverse effect on our firefighting capabilities.

Ponn Conquest does almost meet the same flows as 2 inch hose because in reality the inside diameter is very close to 2 inch. I wonder why they don't just make the inside diameter 1 3/4 inch and shrink the outer jacket to make the hose true 1 3/4 inch hose again. Wouldn't it be lighter? It just seems to me that if you want 2 inch hose buy 2 inch hose not mislabeled 1 3/4 inch hose.

Quality of the hose is a very large factor and low bid should not be a consideration unless the hose meets everything you set out in your specs.

FyredUp

[neiowa]

Looking for 1st purchase of LHD (5" Storz).

What recommendations of brand/model can you guys provide?

[Dalmatian90]

If space (storage) isn't a concern, we've always had good luck with Angus Hi-Vol.

It has very good FL numbers, helped I'm sure by the fact that once charged their nominal 4" expands to 4.2" and the 5" goes to 5.2".

Some other brands/makes -- I know Niedner for one -- make LDH that packs tighter for use in limited spaces like Quints. May give up some flow due to higher FL, but you can carry more hose.

[LFD2203]

I would stay away from the Niedner. We have a bunch of it, and the liner gets twisted, so bad that you can't roll it and get all the air and water out of it after use. I've heard that some dept. had some major pump damage when the liner detached and was pulled into the pump!

[lance38]

Does that include the 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 LFD? I have their catalogue and a sample and I thought it looked pretty good.

[neiowa]

Have to admit to knowing diddly about LDH brands/hose. In web search.

5"
Snaptite PONN Supreme - Burst 900psi Rubber lined
Snaptite Triple Duty - Burst 1200psi Thermoplastic lined

Angus Hi-Combat - Burst 900psi Rubber
Angus Hi-Vol Burst 600psi Rubber

Anyone have some pricing comparison of any of these? Looks like urethane has higher performance specs. What is pricing vs. rubber?

We will be using to supply a new monitor when in ground mount or for supply from new fire hydrant installation. Reality is annual hose test will be the only time it will likely be wet (little used).

[lance38]

I am no expert but I will pass on a few things I have found out while researching the subject. From what I can see the service test pressure is the number you need to look for when comparing hose. According to NFPA 1961 The purchaser shall specify the service test pressure for the hose, but in any case the stp shall not be less than as specified by NFPA 1961 for each type of hose. The stp must be at least 10% greater than the normal highest operating pressure at which the hose is to be used.
- The proof test pressure shall not be less than 2 times the stp
- The burst test pressure shall not be less than 3 times the stp
ATTACK HOSE-(into aerials etc.) min. stp of 300psi
SUPPLY HOSE-(from the hydrant) min stp 200psi
RELAY PUMPING- I beleive 200 stp hose is ok for relay pumping (please correst me if I am wrong)
Again I am no expert so please add to this if you think of anything else important.

[SSHANK42]

The five inch you are talking about, is it a jacketed hose? Our five inch is a single layer rubber, or plstic of some type. We have the Snaptite with the storz. Before this were had their four inch. No complaints. Have been using it for 16+ years. We are able to pack 1000ft. on to of our trucks and 1400 ft. on the other.

[neiowa]

To my (perhaps limited) understanding if your LDH is rated at higher pressure you can pump at a higher pressure and then spacing between relay trucks can be greater (before pressure at the end of hose section approaches zero).

Does not make sense to me, but Angus specs are for Service Pressure, Proof Pressure and Burst Pressure. Snap-Tire are for Service Test, Kink, Acceptance (proof), and Burst Pressures. I may be wrong, but seems to me that Service Test is not the same as Service Pressure? How much? Or maybe same thing.

So only directly comparable specs are Proof and Burst Pressure. Looks like Snap-Tite Triple Duty is "strongest" followed by Angus Hi-Combat and Snap-Tite PONN Supreme then Angus Hi-Vol. But haw much is the additional cost to go to Triple Duty.

[FyredUp]

For most fire departments the cost between 5 inch supply hose and 5 inch attack hose is not worth it. The only need for the attack rated hose is for pumping the hose at pressures exceeding 185psi.

for example if you wanted to move 1000 gpm 1000 feet and have 20 psi intake pressure:

C(QxQ)L=FL

C = .08 (the coefficient for 5 inch hose)
Q = 10 (1000 gpm divided by 10)
L = 10 (length of the hose divided by 10)

.08(10x10)10 = 80 psi friction loss

EP = 80 + 20(intake pressure) = 100 psi

or you could move that 1000 gpm 2000 feet with a single engine with 180 psi

We have never had a reason to have to exceed the 185 pumping pressure so there was no need to buy the attack rated hose.

FyredUp

[LFD2203]

Both our 5" and 1.75" hose experienced the liner twisting. At times, when walking out the 1.75" hose, you would get the liner coming out of the coupling, looking like a prolapsed b%&&hole. I haven't found much good to say about it, we have replaced some hoses that were used only one time.....beware.

[neiowa]

I'm thinking of a 1000gpm for couple miles when I mention relay pumping. Placing an engine every 2000ft is a manpower equipment load that does not work. I'm thinking more like 5000ft space which means higher discharge pressure in 5" or may point to 6" LDH. Cost/benefit question.

[Dalmatian90]

or you could move that 1000 gpm 2000 feet with a single engine with 180 psi

Same 1000gpm, 180psi pump discharge pressure.

4,700' using Angus Hi-Vol 5" with it's specific FL coefficient instead of the generic "chart" FL that's based on double jacketed, rubber lined fire hose that FyredUp used.

Interestingly enough, and important for neiowa's application, is Angus Hi-Combat 5", which is their Attack LDH, using Angus' numbers for the FL coefficient is only 3,600'.

Bring your 1500gpm single stage fire pump up to 250psi, you'll get 1000gpm and can push it 5,200' in the Hi-Combat 5".

Specific situations might bring some changes in what you look at, but for my money I'd still rather have the Hi-Vol in most situations with lower FL overall, then to go with a higher FL hose and overcome it with higher pressure.

And while "mileage may vary" -- I'd much rather get & trust manufacturer's numbers on LDH than go by the old charts when calculating the reach/pump pressures needed. The Angus numbers are closer to what our practical from experience rule-of-thumb is than the charts (a cheat sheet a Deputy did years ago was 1500gpm/1500', 1000gpm/5000' based on what we actually did)

[FyredUp]

Dalmation90...

Of course that is figures from the friction loss formula. I never denied that. In fact, golly gee willikers, I think I even showed the math. And of course every hose flows differently depending on construction. These figures and the manufacturers charts are nothing more than a place to start from. If you have ever seen any of the other times I have talked about flows and friction loss I usually ended my post with a statement similar to this "Of course the only real way to know how much flow you can get out of any hose is to put a flow meter on it and actually flow it." I guess I should have done that there too.

We have 2 pumpers on my volly FD and we have 2100 feet of 5 inch hose. We have never had to relay over 1400 feet and to be honest we start our relays at 100 psi from the source pumper. Both of our engines have intake relief valves set at 100 psi. Once the relay is established the source pumper throttles up or down to achieve a minumum of 20 psi residual to the attack pumper. While perhaps not as scientific as it should be it has worked well for us.

I can't imagine that laying anywhere from 3000 feet to 2 miles of 5 inch hose being practical in most situations. It would seem to me that at least initially while you were doing that one of 2 things is happening. The building is continuing to burn or you have established a tanker shuttle to sustain fire attack while the massive hose layout is being undertaken. But heck if it works for you fantastic.

FyredUp

[Dalmatian90]

Fyred, just giving more accurate numbers -- if someone uses the "chart" numbers on big lays, they can be really off from reality. That's all I was trying to point out.

I can't imagine that laying anywhere from 3000 feet to 2 miles of 5 inch hose being practical in most situations.

Our *average* lay is 2500' when we drop hose other than a driveway evolution or something like that. If you have a crew on the ball with our Engine, it's a minute/1000' to lay, couple minutes to setup and prime, and a minute/1000' to charge -- figure under 10 minutes for a 3000' lay. But that's something we're setup with a highly specialized Engine to accomplish and practice to do.

Doesn't get dropped for most residential fires, simply never need that kind of fire flow and it's easier to break down a tanker shuttle. For longer duration stuff, easier to go with the lines.

That said, the "Next Generation" of hose trucks in my town will probably be a significant downsizing. Currently have 2, one with 2500' and one with 5000', designed in the early 1980s when the Town's schools were 7500' from the nearest static water supply. Today, they have a hydrant behind them. Visit us in 10, 15 years and you'll probably see a pair of F-550 class 1500gpm pumpers with 2500' of 5" each. As hydrants (though currently spaced at 2000') have moved in to cover most of our larger commercial/institutional buildings, almost no working agriculuture left to present large fire hazards in the rural areas, and fewer good ponds to draft from...needs are changing.

[Bones42]

While perhaps not as scientific as it should be it has worked well for us.

That's the method I use for determining flows and pressures too. Set it up and see how high we got to pump.

[RFDACM]

For a great evaluation of handlines look at the Vindicator nozzle websit, First Strike Technologies. Under the Testimonials is a study done by Montgomery County, MD FD. The report includes hose/nozzle testing. There is a great sheet on hose showing wieght, liner type, burst PSI, friction loss @ 180 psi, kink test at 100 psi, an abraision test and a heat failure (burn through)test.

It looks like Ponn Conquest wins hands down. I've seen this info elsewhere, too.