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  1. #21
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    While I agree with the posts that TIC make rope search almost unnecessary there are other reasons. For instance help you find your way out if camera fails or you just get disoriented, help others know your location, or allow another company to take over where you left off after you exit for air/malfunction/etc.


  2. #22
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong... not saying taglines aren't important in large areas... I'm all for that, for the reasons you restated.

    To rely on it as a search-for-victims tactic, however, is dangerously time consuming imho. Then again, if you don't have TIC's available, it might be the only way.
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  3. #23
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    I've been in a couple fires where the smoke is so thick and akrid that seeing the TIC display is nearly impossible.....and it's these fires where i can see guys getting lost.....nice to be familiar with rope search tecniques then....

  4. #24
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    We've had TIC's since '91 and have seen the ups and downs(limitations) of them. Changing a battery in a smoky fire building can be a pain in the *****. If it fails,we've experienced this, you're left with only your own proficiency to rely on so make sure your skills are up to parr. If you use it to get in can you get out without it. A camera will show heat, but not always a cold hole in the floor. Using a rope/camera combination to find a victom will leave a path for others to follow if the camera crew finds the victom and needs assistance getting him, possibly a 225lb firefighter in gear, out. The other crew just follows the rope to their location. In large area fires the truck companies and rescue bring a camera and 200'search rope.

  5. #25
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pikepole9
    I've been in a couple fires where the smoke is so thick and akrid that seeing the TIC display is nearly impossible.....and it's these fires where i can see guys getting lost.....nice to be familiar with rope search tecniques then....
    So the smoke prevented you from seeing the TIC screen through a 1" or so gap of air?

    I can see it being a problem if you're trying to watch it while crawling, or while holding it out at arm's length... but I've never had a problem with smoke obscuring the screen when I'm actually holding it to my mask and using it.

    To alleviate problems with changing batteries: practice, practice, practice. Also, if you're in the market for one, check out how easy/difficult battery replacement is. Remember it will be obscured vision, and ideally you will keep your gloves on (though not always possible).

    Again, there's a difference between using rope as a "tag line" and using rope to conduct a large area search -- an evolution where the rope is used as a tool to snag on victims.
    Last edited by Resq14; 01-03-2005 at 07:00 PM.
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  6. #26
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    len1582,
    Been there too, not to mention your mask fogging up.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Resq14
    but I've never had a problem with smoke obscuring the screen when I'm actually holding it to my mask
    You can see whats on the sceen from 1" away? I can't, I need at least a foot to be able to focus on the screen, and I probably have the best vision of anyone you know (20/10). One of the reasons I like the ISG Talisman is that due to the focusing lens in front of the screen you can see if both from arms length and pressed right up to the mask.

    I ran into a problem with our cameras a while back during one of our few live fire evolutions in the training facility, my mask was fogging up on the outside as was the screen of the TIC, didn't have a free hand (tool) and was trying to keep up with the attack team so I was unable to wipe both (it occured twice, both times as I went from the basment to the burn room). I wish I could put that camera right up to the mask.
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  8. #28
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    Default L.a.s.t.

    In Kansas City we have been using a rope system after the tragic death of one of our own in a large paper warehouse. L.A.S.T (LARGE AREA SEARCH TEAM) has been developed over the last five years into a system that works well and we will challenge any other system out there. We use a custom rope bag that we developed along with a TIC. The rope bag contains 300' of rope and deploys as the team searches.
    We use a four man RIT team, all trained in L.A.S.T., at every working fire and on commercial structures will respond two or three teams.
    We are in the process of training departments in Missouri in L.A.S.T. and getting great feedback.
    There are systems out there that are fast and work well even though our brothers in the southwest may disagree.

  9. #29
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
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    Could you give us details? Perhaps a copy of your SOG's?
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  10. #30
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    There was a thread not too long ago describing the LAST operation. The rope they bring is used as a guide for following members and also to lead their way out. It's not used as a "search/tag" line as is being described above.

    We recently drilled on large area searches and ropes. We anchor to a point outside, office goes 2 "arm stretches" wide, 1 guy goes off each direction up to 25' and back. When both guys are back, officer moves another 2 arm stretches in, guys go back out. What we found was that this allowed us to actually cover the entire area and not get caught up/hung up on all the obstacles you will run into by sweeping. Other benefit is that the officer knows fairly close how far in they are to enable them to get back out and also report to IC/relief crews where they made it to.

    I recommend anyone that gets the chance, go to a school and practice these searches. First, due it in the gymnasium with no obstacles so guys can get used to the practices. Then do it in the cafeteria with multiple tables and chairs. Sweeping works well in a mostly open area, too much trouble in a congested area.

    Whatever method you use, practice on it.

    PS - I'd rather use TIC's and get the area well ventilated.
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  11. #31
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    We are currently working an a website that will detail much of the information on the Kansas City L.A.S.T. drill. We have a short film clip on our department website that will give you a quick overview of the drill. http://www.kcmo.org/fire.nsf/web/training?opendocument
    at the bottom of the page click on training with L.A.S.T.
    This clip was rolled out three years ago as we began training our RIT teams. We have made many refinements but this will give you a general idea of L.A.S.T.
    If you have any questions let me know.

    Training Schedule for the remainder of 05
    North Kansas City Fire Department - November 21,22 and 23
    Springfield Missouri Fire - December 12,13, and 14
    St. Louis County Fire - December 19,20, and 21

  12. #32
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    Hey there Fire304,

    Do you have any power points, or a disk of pictures regarding your large area search training that you might be able to send to me, email would be fine, Engine6bfd@earthlink.net. Thanks




    Mike

  13. #33
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    Kevlar rope that is 100’ long but we have longer ones too. Every 20’ is a ring in the rope that the two Firefighters clip onto the rope and come up to the first ring then they clip onto the rings with their 50’ search lines. They can do 2 different types of searches from that point. It’s nice to have the rings on the rope when Command or you need to know how far your in the building….just add how many rings went out when you play the rope out

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy361
    Hey there Fire304,
    Do you have any power points, or a disk of pictures regarding your large area search training that you might be able to send to me, email would be fine, Engine6bfd@earthlink.net. Thanks
    Mike
    Here's the "Lessons Learned " from that training from our website. There is one photo on the site as well Here no power point, am working to get more photos up, will let you know shortly.
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  15. #35
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    super soot fires totally rule out the camera......constantly wiping off the screen and fighting to see it only slows up the search......this is where being proficient with the lines can come in handy.......to many departments use the camera as a crutch.

  16. #36
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    http://www.allhandsfire.com/page/AHF...T-200-CH-M-RSL

    This is the system that we use. Line discipline is the key to large area search. Add any scenario, situation or circumstance - but at the end of the day LAS only is successful with Line Discipline.

    Some things that we have run into, discussed or encountered.

    1. Some say that a shorter line is better because you may not want your people in too deep. Well, what if your substantial object is 50' away? You can also use the line in a firefighter rescue situation - a 2-to-1 or to rescue from a lower level. It's nice having the extra rope.

    2. We use the 20' retractable lines. They are durable and work great. The officer has good control of his team and you are less likely to have a mess of spagetti on your hands! Line discipline.

    3. This system has Kevlar ropes, rated at 862 degrees. Durable, resists cuts, and is managable with a gloved hand.

    These are just some things that we've seen and done. I hope this helps. Thanks

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