1. #26
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    Originally posted by Rigin1
    Is that the always witty I'm rubber you're glue comeback?

    Rigin
    No. It's the truth!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Originally posted by Rigin1


    I have no idea what I'm talking about.

    Rigin
    That pretty much sums it up...

    I suppose you are hoping that they will come out and say the crash never happened... then you will be vindicated.

    Here is what we know.. two pieces of apparatus attempted to occupy the same space at the same time. That is not a good thing to have happening to fire apparatus.

    So, as I tried to explain in my first post, let's learn from this so that the crash can have some positive impact. Driving on slick roads requires a lot more caution than normal. I am sure that neither chauffer set out to run into the other truck when they responded to this call... so something went wrong and the crash could have been prevented.

    The safety belt issue is an unknown, but this certainly is a good time to remind ourselves to wear them. Even if it a firefighter did not go through the windshield, it has happened before so it can happen again. Personally, I do not want to see the crash from that position, and I hope no one else ever has to. So, I will encourage safety belt use.

    I join everyone else in hoping for a speedy recovery for the victims of this crash. It is also my goal to see to it that some good will come from their misfortune.
    Last edited by MetalMedic; 12-27-2004 at 11:45 PM.
    Richard Nester
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    Originally presented by Dr. Clark
    The problem is we do not know our history. So we are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. At a deeper level we dishonor those who came before us and in many cases they gave their life so we can be safer today.
    Maybe we need to make this a plaque to hang in every fire station. We need to reduce the obvious methods we use to kill and maim ourselves.

    I have read every NIOSH LODD report and written about many of them (for a competing publication) - just how many firefighter traffic crash fatalities or serious injuries you want before we make a bigger deal about it? It is an accurate statement to say that we do not know about the factors that lead to the intersection collision between Newark Rescue 1 and Engine 3. But the initial reports and the published pictures do paint enough of a picture to start this discussion.

    I am not picking on Newark, OH. - I am sure within two months we can talk about the same issue involving another fire department. Let's talk about the paralyzed fire officer and his driver that was cited for excessive speed while responding to the call in the southwest. The rig ended up on it's side on a highway on-ramp. It is cruel, but non-use of a seatbelt is a contributing factor to a remaining lifetime in a wheelchair.

    From the cheap seats . . . what would I know?????

    Stay warm and safe.

    Mike

    Michael J. Ward
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    Capt G - The Jake Brake was a two-phase unit that was in full retard operation and an accident factor that destroyed a $275K rig a fortnight ago in a rural community.
    Last edited by MikeWard; 12-28-2004 at 01:16 AM.

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    Picture from Firefighterclosecalls.com:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

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    One More:

    See the entire article at:
    http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

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    Default Re: Re: Firetrucks Collide - 3 Firefighters Critical

    Originally posted by MikeWard
    As the rig approached the accident scene, he removed his seatbelt. When the engine retarder (Jake Brake) kicked in, the rig suddenly started to spin on black ice, ending up driver's side down and off the road. During this spin, the unbelted firefighter fell onto the driver - breaking the driver's arm. The firefighter received a spinal fracture and concussion.

    They have switches in the cab that disable the Jake brake right??
    I know we do and are taught to do so on slick surfaces prior to going enroute.

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    MikeWard, I'm ashamed to say it but I live 30 miles from Columbus, MS and have never heard that story! I can assure you that I will be using it at the next safety meeting!
    Chief
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    In Memory of:
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    Default Re: Question for someone near Newark

    Originally posted by pete892
    I talked with my brother last night. He lives in Newark and his business is two blocks from the accident scene. He indicated to me that both units came from the same station. I told him I didn't think that was possible. He assures me I am wrong.

    Anyone know for sure?
    This from the local newspaper:

    Asst. Chief Clouse said the fire department has not yet begun its internal investigation of the accident, since the Newark Police Department has not yet completed its investigation of the wreck.

    Although not entirely sure, Clouse said he is fairly certain both vehicles left the downtown fire station on Fourth Street.

    The likely reason the trucks were on different routes is that Engine 3 -- which went up Fifth Street -- left from the back end of the fire station facing Fifth Street, while Rescue 1 left from the front, going up Fourth Street and turning West on Church Street, eventually colliding with Engine 3.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Firetrucks Collide - 3 Firefighters Critical

    Originally posted by mmutk2000


    They have switches in the cab that disable the Jake brake right??
    I know we do and are taught to do so on slick surfaces prior to going enroute.
    Same here.....
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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    Default Re: Firetrucks Collide - 3 Firefighters Critical

    Originally posted by HM604OH
    NEWARK, Ohio -- Three firefighters were critically injured Saturday after two firetrucks collided at a downtown Newark intersection.

    NBC 4's Erin Tate reported that the crash occurred at about 2:30 p.m. at the corner of Church and Fifth streets.

    The trucks were heading to a call that later turned to be a false alarm, Tate reported.

    The three firefighters were airlifted to local hospitals. There was no word of their names or conditions.

    Witnesses said that they saw one of the firefighters go through a truck's windshield.
    God Bless them all...
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    Default Interstate apparatus accident on black ice

    Originally posted by mmutk2000
    They have switches in the cab that disable the Jake brake right??
    Correct, there is a three position switch: Off, 50% and 100% engine braking. The switch was in the 100% braking position.

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    Apparently some of you just can't keep your mouth shut and must immediatly condemn these people for their mistake.. Know what? they screwed up, they know it, their families know it, we all know it. So what good does it do to bash them publically?

    I saw another thread about paying it forward.. just remember, for those of you on this thread who live in glass houses, how would you feel if you were upset about the injury of a close friend of yours, only to come on here and read about what a bunch of screw ups they were.

    Get over it, get a life, you proved your point now move on.

    Oh, BTW, as for the engine retarder, E-One assures us to leave ours on at all times.. stating that it causing increased sliding is a wives tale.. Not being a CDL driver and having never drivin anything other than a fire truck, I dunno.. just going on what they told us.

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    Interesting, our E-One rep told us the opposite. Turn it off when roads are slick. Kind of makes you wonder why there would be an on/off switch if it was to be left on all the time. Then again, why do 24hour stores have locks on the doors...
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Both Trucks DID leave from the same station....they were all together having Christmas dinner when the call came in...smoke in a house..possible structure fire...Usually Engine 3 is on the west side of town and Rescue 1 comes from central station in the downtown Newark area...and they do usually anounce when approaching intersections...the reason they were going different directions is because Engine 3 was parked out behind station 1 so they proceded to Fifth st and Rescue 1 went out the front onto Fourth st..so rescue 1 went to Forth and Church and turned onto Church St and Engine 3 went Fifth st to Church St where they met..

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    Originally posted by ffspo0k
    Apparently some of you just can't keep your mouth shut and must immediatly condemn these people for their mistake.. Know what? they screwed up, they know it, their families know it, we all know it. So what good does it do to bash them publically?
    let me explain why so many of us will "condemn these people for their mistake": It's because it was preventable. there shouldn't have been 3 brothers in critical condition.

    we bury more than 100 firefighters every year, and we've done that for the last 10+ years. I would guess that thousands more are hospitalized, and some permantly disabled. with all our technoligical advances, with all of our increased training, and with all our new equipment, that number stays the same.

    We need to start lowering those numbers, and stop the preventable LODD and NLODD from occurring. and yes, I consider most traffic collions to be preventable.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Originally posted by ffspo0k
    Apparently some of you just can't keep your mouth shut and must immediatly condemn these people for their mistake.. Know what? they screwed up, they know it, their families know it, we all know it. So what good does it do to bash them publically?

    I saw another thread about paying it forward.. just remember, for those of you on this thread who live in glass houses, how would you feel if you were upset about the injury of a close friend of yours, only to come on here and read about what a bunch of screw ups they were.
    I'm not a big fan of "bashing" anyone, but if you can learn from other people's mistakes or from other's misfortune I think it
    should be taken advantage of.

    Take an ativan man.

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    Originally posted by ffspo0k
    Apparently some of you just can't keep your mouth shut and must immediatly condemn these people for their mistake.. Know what? they screwed up, they know it, their families know it, we all know it. So what good does it do to bash them publically?

    I saw another thread about paying it forward.. just remember, for those of you on this thread who live in glass houses, how would you feel if you were upset about the injury of a close friend of yours, only to come on here and read about what a bunch of screw ups they were.

    Get over it, get a life, you proved your point now move on.

    Oh, BTW, as for the engine retarder, E-One assures us to leave ours on at all times.. stating that it causing increased sliding is a wives tale.. Not being a CDL driver and having never drivin anything other than a fire truck, I dunno.. just going on what they told us.
    Nobody is "bashing" them. We are discussing what could be done differently. Have you ever seen Chief Goldfeder do one of his presentations? He does them to get the word out and to get people to learn from others' mistakes.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    How do you discuss doing something differently when you don't know what happen in the first place?

    Rigin

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    Perhaps this thread has gotten a little off course. I think we can all agree on several points:

    1. We still need to pray for our brothers who are living through this.

    2. Something did go wrong - no doubt about that. Time will reveal what truly happened.

    3. Too many of our brothers are killed or injured every year and we need to do everthing in our power to prevent these tragedies from occurring!

    Let's not stoop to name calling and poking at each other on the forums on something so tragic. (OK off of the soapbox now, rant turned off!)
    Chief
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    Originally posted by Rigin1
    How do you discuss doing something differently when you don't know what happen in the first place?

    Rigin
    We do know a few things......

    1. They collided at an intersection while responding to the same incident.

    2. The weather was crappy. Snow on the roads

    3. A FF was ejected


    Things learned/re-enforced:

    Slow down and be prepared to stop at intersections.

    Drive even more carefully in the snow and during inclement weather

    Wear your seatbelt
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

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    From FH.com front page.........


    __________________________________________________

    City Trying To Cope Days After Fire Engine Collision
    Two Firefighters Remain Hospitalized

    POSTED: 4:28 p.m. EST December 28, 2004
    UPDATED: 4:51 p.m. EST December 28, 2004


    Story by nbc4i.com

    NEWARK, Ohio -- Newark police are still investigating a collision on Christmas Day between two fire engines that injured six firefighters, NBC 4's Erin Tate reported.


    The crash occurred at an icy intersection at West Church Street and North Fifth Street in downtown Newark, Tate reported.

    Two of the firefighters were flown by medical helicopter to Grant Medical Center, where they continue to recover from their injuries.

    Meanwhile, the city is trying to deal without the manpower and equipment, Tate reported.

    The crash made this past Christmas one that Henry Gillett soon won't forget. The witness to the crash said the impact catapulted one Newark firefighter through a windshield.

    "It just happened in a second, in a heartbeat, literally," Gillett said. "I don't believe they heard each other ... until an instant before they contacted."

    The engines had rushed from a Christmas party to respond to a house fire. The call ended up being only a smoke scare, Tate reported.

    Firefighters John Kollar and Kyle Bookless remain at Grant. Four other firefighters sustained minor injuries.

    With several of the city's 70-plus firefighters recuperating, officials said they are just thankful that the injuries weren't more severe.

    The two engines are out of commission, but the Ohio Fire Academy and other departments have offered loaner engines until Newark can purchase new vehicles.




    Copyright 2004 by nbc4i.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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    Originally posted by mmutk2000



    Take an ativan man.
    You know what, screw that.. I'm sick and tired of the way things get handled around here. Everyone jumps to every conclusion they can before they know any of the facts. I make it a habit to learn every detail about any incident before I pass judgement, because I accept the fact that the press release does not have all the details..

    And to whoever asked, yes I have been to a Goldfeder presentation and found it very informative. However during his presentation he presents EVERY fact before discussing conclusions and things that could be changed. NOT ONE of his incidents were based on a 1 1/2 page news article by channel 4 in columbus ohio.

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    January 5, 2005 Page: A1

    Firefighter on the mend
    ERIK JOHNS
    Advocate Reporter

    ZANESVILLE -- A Newark firefighter who survived a Christmas Day crash between two firetrucks can't wait to get back in a fire engine.

    Kyle Bookless, 31, was launched through the windshield of Newark Fire Rescue 1 when it collided with Engine 3 at the intersection of West Church and North Fifth streets en route to what turned out to be a false alarm. He was flown to Grant Medical Center in Columbus for emergency surgery and has been hospitalized ever since.

    "I want to get back to work so bad I can taste it, but it's not going to happen for a while," Bookless said.

    Bookless left Grant on Friday and entered Good Samaritan Hospital in Zanesville to begin rehabilitation closer to his Conesville home. His recovery is going well, which is welcome news considering the atmosphere on Christmas Day.

    "I have been told by many people that there was a large, looming thought that I might not have made it," he said.

    Firefighter John Kollar was also in Rescue 1 during the crash and was hospitalized for two days. Four other firefighters were treated for minor injuries.

    Although he may go home as early as Friday, Bookless still has a great deal of rehab and therapy ahead of him.

    "I'm learning how to walk and talk correctly. It's going good, but there's still a lot of therapy to go," he said. "There's an exceptional amount of pain. It starts in my head and shoots through my whole body."

    He has come a long way since the beginning of his therapy, which was little more than trying to hold his legs up in the air off the bed.

    Bookless suffered significant head and internal trauma. He has a hard time walking and performing daily tasks, and his hearing and memory have been damaged.

    Talking in his hospital room Tuesday, Bookless was still groggy and fatigued, often having to rest briefly before finishing his thoughts.

    "With the amount of damage that was done to my brain and skull, I know it's not going to heal quickly, but I'm optimistic about the future," he said. "It's pretty humbling to know I'm going to be able to pull through."

    A fellow firefighter brought in pictures of the mangled firetrucks recently to show Bookless. It was the first time he had seen the trucks since the collision.

    "To see it close up like that ... . The thing that bothered me the most is that I have no idea how that happened," he said.

    Bookless has no conscious memory of the wreck or the ensuing emergency medical treatment he received.

    "The day of the accident being Christmas Day, I can't even remember getting out of bed. It's just blank. I wish there was more I could remember to help the police so this doesn't happen again," he said. "Pretty much the most terrifying parts, my body just shut the mind off. I don't remember any of it."

    Bookless draws on his firefighter's spirit to get him through the tough times during his recovery.

    "It's the nature of the job. You don't give up and throw in the towel," he said. "I hope this shows everyone not to give up."

    His fellow firefighters have stepped up to the plate as well. Although Bookless' medical costs are covered through the city's insurance, he could be laid up for more than a year, losing out on pay for overtime work.

    Firefighter Brad Smith has helped set up the Bookless Family Fund at Park National Bank for Bookless, his wife Shellie and their two sons, 6 and 8 years old.

    "Any individuals or organizations who would like to help would be greatly appreciated," Smith said.

    Other Newark firefighters are helping on a smaller level as well. On Tuesday, Bookless was struggling to get to the right spot in his bed. Instead of calling for help from hospital staff, Smith and Newark Fire Capt. Bill Spurgeon grabbed him under the arms and lifted him up.

    In addition to regular visits from Newark firefighters, Bookless has received a great deal of moral support from other departments.

    "When I was in Columbus, there were firefighters from Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Lancaster and Westerville that came to visit. The amount of support has been fantastic," he said.

    Bookless' therapy has focused on daily tasks, including walking, showering, grooming and other basic daily activity.

    "He's definitely improved. He's very dedicated, he wants to get better," said Kim Birkhimer, occupational therapist assistant at Good Samaritan.

    As his condition improves, the physical therapy will move toward getting him prepared to return to fire-fighting.

    "It's definitely inspiring knowing you're going to treat a patient that's going to make a recovery knowing the condition he came from," Good Samaritan Occupational Therapist Sarah Tingler said. "He's motivated and energized to do everything we ask of him."

    In addition to occupational therapy, Bookless is undergoing physical therapy to restore strength and flexibility and psychological therapy to deal with the trauma of his event.

    Although not willing to say at this point that he will make a complete recovery, Bookless' therapists say he is quickly improving and they are optimistic of his chances.

    Reporter Erik Johns can be reached at 328-8543 or ejohns@nncogannett.com

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    Default Firefighter returned to duty March 2005

    I cannot retrieve the article, but Kyle Bookless returned to duty at Rescue 1 in March 2005.

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    FFspook, let's examine a few "facts". Two EXPENSIVE pieces of emergency apparatus tried to occupy the same space at the same time and sent multiple members of both companies to the hospital. KNOWN FACT! I pray for their speedy return to service. Predictable is preventable.When operating in adverse conditions special precautions need to be taken. KNOWN FACT!If the apparatus doesn't arrive at incident,it cannot influence the incident. I've been operating in these types of conditions commercially for 34 years. You NEVER have an "active" Jake brake in wet/snowy/slushy/icy conditions unless you want to see how fast you can swap ends.Again,KNOWN FACT. And this so called "bashing" is merely a few people with a pretty good grip on operations looking at a "not again" and trying to figure a pro-active method of prevention. Ever write a COMPLETE FD accident report along with follow ups? If you had,it's not an experience you'll enjoy or want to repeat. if a company does not arrive at the scene as assigned it creates a much larger problem.In this case,other companies needed to be assigned to the crash,the situation was magnified,even more companies needed to be assigned to the original call. And I'm not quarterbacking the call,it doesn't matter to me if it happened in Newark,Chicago,NY,LA or where ever. It is a tragedy.And one we need to learn from. I don't see Medics or the others comments as being judgemental;whether or not you agree, someone made a bad decision that led to injury.And if you don't want history to repeat itself,you and Rigin and the others who are up in arms better take an active interest in the "whys". I want and I'm going to know why as the "facts"become available so perhaps I can prevent a similar occurance in my jurisdiction.And you? T.C.

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