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  1. #41
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    Originally posted by ffspo0k
    Apparently some of you just can't keep your mouth shut and must immediatly condemn these people for their mistake.. Know what? they screwed up, they know it, their families know it, we all know it. So what good does it do to bash them publically?

    I saw another thread about paying it forward.. just remember, for those of you on this thread who live in glass houses, how would you feel if you were upset about the injury of a close friend of yours, only to come on here and read about what a bunch of screw ups they were.
    I'm not a big fan of "bashing" anyone, but if you can learn from other people's mistakes or from other's misfortune I think it
    should be taken advantage of.

    Take an ativan man.


  2. #42
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ffspo0k
    Apparently some of you just can't keep your mouth shut and must immediatly condemn these people for their mistake.. Know what? they screwed up, they know it, their families know it, we all know it. So what good does it do to bash them publically?

    I saw another thread about paying it forward.. just remember, for those of you on this thread who live in glass houses, how would you feel if you were upset about the injury of a close friend of yours, only to come on here and read about what a bunch of screw ups they were.

    Get over it, get a life, you proved your point now move on.

    Oh, BTW, as for the engine retarder, E-One assures us to leave ours on at all times.. stating that it causing increased sliding is a wives tale.. Not being a CDL driver and having never drivin anything other than a fire truck, I dunno.. just going on what they told us.
    Nobody is "bashing" them. We are discussing what could be done differently. Have you ever seen Chief Goldfeder do one of his presentations? He does them to get the word out and to get people to learn from others' mistakes.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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  3. #43
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    How do you discuss doing something differently when you don't know what happen in the first place?

    Rigin

  4. #44
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    Perhaps this thread has gotten a little off course. I think we can all agree on several points:

    1. We still need to pray for our brothers who are living through this.

    2. Something did go wrong - no doubt about that. Time will reveal what truly happened.

    3. Too many of our brothers are killed or injured every year and we need to do everthing in our power to prevent these tragedies from occurring!

    Let's not stoop to name calling and poking at each other on the forums on something so tragic. (OK off of the soapbox now, rant turned off!)
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  5. #45
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rigin1
    How do you discuss doing something differently when you don't know what happen in the first place?

    Rigin
    We do know a few things......

    1. They collided at an intersection while responding to the same incident.

    2. The weather was crappy. Snow on the roads

    3. A FF was ejected


    Things learned/re-enforced:

    Slow down and be prepared to stop at intersections.

    Drive even more carefully in the snow and during inclement weather

    Wear your seatbelt
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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  6. #46
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    From FH.com front page.........


    ______________________________ ____________________

    City Trying To Cope Days After Fire Engine Collision
    Two Firefighters Remain Hospitalized

    POSTED: 4:28 p.m. EST December 28, 2004
    UPDATED: 4:51 p.m. EST December 28, 2004


    Story by nbc4i.com

    NEWARK, Ohio -- Newark police are still investigating a collision on Christmas Day between two fire engines that injured six firefighters, NBC 4's Erin Tate reported.


    The crash occurred at an icy intersection at West Church Street and North Fifth Street in downtown Newark, Tate reported.

    Two of the firefighters were flown by medical helicopter to Grant Medical Center, where they continue to recover from their injuries.

    Meanwhile, the city is trying to deal without the manpower and equipment, Tate reported.

    The crash made this past Christmas one that Henry Gillett soon won't forget. The witness to the crash said the impact catapulted one Newark firefighter through a windshield.

    "It just happened in a second, in a heartbeat, literally," Gillett said. "I don't believe they heard each other ... until an instant before they contacted."

    The engines had rushed from a Christmas party to respond to a house fire. The call ended up being only a smoke scare, Tate reported.

    Firefighters John Kollar and Kyle Bookless remain at Grant. Four other firefighters sustained minor injuries.

    With several of the city's 70-plus firefighters recuperating, officials said they are just thankful that the injuries weren't more severe.

    The two engines are out of commission, but the Ohio Fire Academy and other departments have offered loaner engines until Newark can purchase new vehicles.




    Copyright 2004 by nbc4i.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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  7. #47
    Forum Member FiremedicMike's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmutk2000



    Take an ativan man.
    You know what, screw that.. I'm sick and tired of the way things get handled around here. Everyone jumps to every conclusion they can before they know any of the facts. I make it a habit to learn every detail about any incident before I pass judgement, because I accept the fact that the press release does not have all the details..

    And to whoever asked, yes I have been to a Goldfeder presentation and found it very informative. However during his presentation he presents EVERY fact before discussing conclusions and things that could be changed. NOT ONE of his incidents were based on a 1 1/2 page news article by channel 4 in columbus ohio.

  8. #48
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    January 5, 2005 Page: A1

    Firefighter on the mend
    ERIK JOHNS
    Advocate Reporter

    ZANESVILLE -- A Newark firefighter who survived a Christmas Day crash between two firetrucks can't wait to get back in a fire engine.

    Kyle Bookless, 31, was launched through the windshield of Newark Fire Rescue 1 when it collided with Engine 3 at the intersection of West Church and North Fifth streets en route to what turned out to be a false alarm. He was flown to Grant Medical Center in Columbus for emergency surgery and has been hospitalized ever since.

    "I want to get back to work so bad I can taste it, but it's not going to happen for a while," Bookless said.

    Bookless left Grant on Friday and entered Good Samaritan Hospital in Zanesville to begin rehabilitation closer to his Conesville home. His recovery is going well, which is welcome news considering the atmosphere on Christmas Day.

    "I have been told by many people that there was a large, looming thought that I might not have made it," he said.

    Firefighter John Kollar was also in Rescue 1 during the crash and was hospitalized for two days. Four other firefighters were treated for minor injuries.

    Although he may go home as early as Friday, Bookless still has a great deal of rehab and therapy ahead of him.

    "I'm learning how to walk and talk correctly. It's going good, but there's still a lot of therapy to go," he said. "There's an exceptional amount of pain. It starts in my head and shoots through my whole body."

    He has come a long way since the beginning of his therapy, which was little more than trying to hold his legs up in the air off the bed.

    Bookless suffered significant head and internal trauma. He has a hard time walking and performing daily tasks, and his hearing and memory have been damaged.

    Talking in his hospital room Tuesday, Bookless was still groggy and fatigued, often having to rest briefly before finishing his thoughts.

    "With the amount of damage that was done to my brain and skull, I know it's not going to heal quickly, but I'm optimistic about the future," he said. "It's pretty humbling to know I'm going to be able to pull through."

    A fellow firefighter brought in pictures of the mangled firetrucks recently to show Bookless. It was the first time he had seen the trucks since the collision.

    "To see it close up like that ... . The thing that bothered me the most is that I have no idea how that happened," he said.

    Bookless has no conscious memory of the wreck or the ensuing emergency medical treatment he received.

    "The day of the accident being Christmas Day, I can't even remember getting out of bed. It's just blank. I wish there was more I could remember to help the police so this doesn't happen again," he said. "Pretty much the most terrifying parts, my body just shut the mind off. I don't remember any of it."

    Bookless draws on his firefighter's spirit to get him through the tough times during his recovery.

    "It's the nature of the job. You don't give up and throw in the towel," he said. "I hope this shows everyone not to give up."

    His fellow firefighters have stepped up to the plate as well. Although Bookless' medical costs are covered through the city's insurance, he could be laid up for more than a year, losing out on pay for overtime work.

    Firefighter Brad Smith has helped set up the Bookless Family Fund at Park National Bank for Bookless, his wife Shellie and their two sons, 6 and 8 years old.

    "Any individuals or organizations who would like to help would be greatly appreciated," Smith said.

    Other Newark firefighters are helping on a smaller level as well. On Tuesday, Bookless was struggling to get to the right spot in his bed. Instead of calling for help from hospital staff, Smith and Newark Fire Capt. Bill Spurgeon grabbed him under the arms and lifted him up.

    In addition to regular visits from Newark firefighters, Bookless has received a great deal of moral support from other departments.

    "When I was in Columbus, there were firefighters from Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Lancaster and Westerville that came to visit. The amount of support has been fantastic," he said.

    Bookless' therapy has focused on daily tasks, including walking, showering, grooming and other basic daily activity.

    "He's definitely improved. He's very dedicated, he wants to get better," said Kim Birkhimer, occupational therapist assistant at Good Samaritan.

    As his condition improves, the physical therapy will move toward getting him prepared to return to fire-fighting.

    "It's definitely inspiring knowing you're going to treat a patient that's going to make a recovery knowing the condition he came from," Good Samaritan Occupational Therapist Sarah Tingler said. "He's motivated and energized to do everything we ask of him."

    In addition to occupational therapy, Bookless is undergoing physical therapy to restore strength and flexibility and psychological therapy to deal with the trauma of his event.

    Although not willing to say at this point that he will make a complete recovery, Bookless' therapists say he is quickly improving and they are optimistic of his chances.

    Reporter Erik Johns can be reached at 328-8543 or ejohns@nncogannett.com

  9. #49
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    Default Firefighter returned to duty March 2005

    I cannot retrieve the article, but Kyle Bookless returned to duty at Rescue 1 in March 2005.

  10. #50
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    FFspook, let's examine a few "facts". Two EXPENSIVE pieces of emergency apparatus tried to occupy the same space at the same time and sent multiple members of both companies to the hospital. KNOWN FACT! I pray for their speedy return to service. Predictable is preventable.When operating in adverse conditions special precautions need to be taken. KNOWN FACT!If the apparatus doesn't arrive at incident,it cannot influence the incident. I've been operating in these types of conditions commercially for 34 years. You NEVER have an "active" Jake brake in wet/snowy/slushy/icy conditions unless you want to see how fast you can swap ends.Again,KNOWN FACT. And this so called "bashing" is merely a few people with a pretty good grip on operations looking at a "not again" and trying to figure a pro-active method of prevention. Ever write a COMPLETE FD accident report along with follow ups? If you had,it's not an experience you'll enjoy or want to repeat. if a company does not arrive at the scene as assigned it creates a much larger problem.In this case,other companies needed to be assigned to the crash,the situation was magnified,even more companies needed to be assigned to the original call. And I'm not quarterbacking the call,it doesn't matter to me if it happened in Newark,Chicago,NY,LA or where ever. It is a tragedy.And one we need to learn from. I don't see Medics or the others comments as being judgemental;whether or not you agree, someone made a bad decision that led to injury.And if you don't want history to repeat itself,you and Rigin and the others who are up in arms better take an active interest in the "whys". I want and I'm going to know why as the "facts"become available so perhaps I can prevent a similar occurance in my jurisdiction.And you? T.C.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    FFspook, let's examine a few "facts". Two EXPENSIVE pieces of emergency apparatus tried to occupy the same space at the same time and sent multiple members of both companies to the hospital. KNOWN FACT! I pray for their speedy return to service. Predictable is preventable.When operating in adverse conditions special precautions need to be taken. KNOWN FACT!If the apparatus doesn't arrive at incident,it cannot influence the incident. I've been operating in these types of conditions commercially for 34 years. You NEVER have an "active" Jake brake in wet/snowy/slushy/icy conditions unless you want to see how fast you can swap ends.Again,KNOWN FACT. And this so called "bashing" is merely a few people with a pretty good grip on operations looking at a "not again" and trying to figure a pro-active method of prevention. Ever write a COMPLETE FD accident report along with follow ups? If you had,it's not an experience you'll enjoy or want to repeat. if a company does not arrive at the scene as assigned it creates a much larger problem.In this case,other companies needed to be assigned to the crash,the situation was magnified,even more companies needed to be assigned to the original call. And I'm not quarterbacking the call,it doesn't matter to me if it happened in Newark,Chicago,NY,LA or where ever. It is a tragedy.And one we need to learn from. I don't see Medics or the others comments as being judgemental;whether or not you agree, someone made a bad decision that led to injury.And if you don't want history to repeat itself,you and Rigin and the others who are up in arms better take an active interest in the "whys". I want and I'm going to know why as the "facts"become available so perhaps I can prevent a similar occurance in my jurisdiction.And you? T.C.

    Thanks brother...many jumped all over me for the thread I began a little bit back not about another incident, but any and all injures or LODD's in general. No flame war in here please...it's plain and simple..we need to reduce the number. I don't know how much more simple it can be. In any interaction with any FD I've had, be it mutual aid, EMS, Rescue etc..the last words I say to any brother I talk to before they leave the scene, or before they mount the apparatus, is usually "stay safe." The number must go down..period. And if it ruffles a few feathers, damn, go cry to somone who gives two shi*s about your whining. I never want to go to another LODD funeral in my life. I've been to two already.
    FF/NREMT-B

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  12. #52
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    Before another flame war starts I would like to point out that this thread is almost a year old.

  13. #53
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailboss2
    Before another flame war starts I would like to point out that this thread is almost a year old.
    lol. nice

    ANYWAY, now that winter is here... we should reitereate that "Jake brakes" should NOT be used during slick conditions... read what Rescue101 and others have said above.

    You CAN learn from things you see in the paper and the news... I'm not finding fault with anything anyone did. What an incident like this does to me, though, is reinforces the points made here concerning seatbelts and driving.

    Can't that be done WITHOUT finding fault with someone? You bet it can. As for Chief Goldfeder "waiting for all the facts to come in"... listen to his podcasts. He will take stories straight from the news... and his disclaimer is always, "I wasn't there, but... ...let's try to learn something from this." You can learn without speaking down to people, hucking stones from your greenhouse, or pointing fingers. At the very least, use these unfortunate events to consider what you would do in similar circumstances.

    The big thing: no one was killed, and hopefully they ALL recovered fast and fully! (I saw the updates above... excellent)
    Last edited by Resq14; 11-26-2005 at 05:58 PM.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailboss2
    Before another flame war starts I would like to point out that this thread is almost a year old.
    Thanks, I was just reporting the outcome of the firefighter that was thrown through the windshield in last year's accident.

    I wondered about the Newark outcome when I was reading about a recent fundraising event for the southwest career fire officer that was paralyzed when his pumper crashed on an interstate on-ramp.

    I did not post it here, but recently in northern Virginia a year-old pumper crashed while responding to a dawn dispatch for a working cpr. The rig is totaled and one of the volunteer firefighters will be in rehab for at least six months for a spine fracture. He spidered the window in the roof of the cab.

    None of them were wearing seat belts either. All three members of the crew were under 23 years old. Excessive speed is a factor.

    I predict we will lose 15 or more brother and sister firefighters in 2006 from response/return crashes where seat belts are not used.

    It would be nice if I was wrong.

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    And will it happen again ? Yes .. because it's still our culture that everything is an emergency .....

  16. #56
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    And will it happen again ? Yes .. because it's still our culture that everything is an emergency .....

    And once again, it’s our “culture” to determine what an “emergency” is, not the public, or any one else for that matter.
    It’s an emergency until we prove it isn’t.
    Last edited by jasper45; 11-26-2005 at 10:54 PM.

  17. #57
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    Default Physics and Procedures

    Many of the firefighter fatality crashes are not because "we treat everything as an emergency" but because we ignore physics and procedures.

    In the recent crash in northern Virginia, the pumper was responding on a two lane road with a 35 mile-per-hour speed limit. Initial estimates from the state police place the speed of the rig well north of 55 miles per hour. The road curved and the rig did not.

    The chauffer of the southwest rig that crashed on the interstate was charged with reckless driving because the rig was well above the posted speed limit when the driver "lost control" of the rig.

    More importantly, the physics of unrestrained firefighters is the primary killer. NIOSH issued a special study after accumulating a decade of LODD data - the firefighters that were wearing a seatbelt attended the funeral of their crew members that did not.

    There were two apparatus accidents with fatalities where rigs were struck while going through intersections. An engine captain was thrown through the windshield while responding on a medical local for chest pains at a physician's office. A truck lieutenant was through out the side window when the rig was struck by a landscape truck.

    The rest of the crew attended the company commander's LODD funeral, except the engine driver who was still in intensive care.

    These are predictable and preventable deaths. I want a fast response if I need 9-1-1. Enforcing seat belt use will reduce the tragedy when physics prevails.

  18. #58
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    Was there any published report on this accident - and if so what was the final out come of the investigation?
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
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