Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 77
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2

    Post Jr FF respond to calls on school nights

    What is the law for 17 year old junior Firefighters responding to fire call after midnight, or before 6 am on school nights?
    I live in PA. Can anyone point me to the exact phrase in the law refering to Junior firefighters 14 - 17 years of age responding to fire calls during the night, when the junior has school the next day?
    Thanks.


  2. #2
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    The only laws would be child labor laws, and they limit what hours you can work. but if you really want some useful information, check this out: http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=65086
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Does the child labor law restrict the time of day for a 17 year old to respond on school nights?

  4. #4
    Forum Member ndvfdff33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Winterpeg Manitoba
    Posts
    2,461

    Default

    Man the juniors in the US have so many laws against them...When I was a junior,which wasn't too ungodly long ago,I could respond to calls any time day or night,During school(as long as I came back if wasn't needed and not during tests or exams),at night...You name it..I don't see what the big problem is as long as they keep their marks up and dont make it their number 1 priority..Thats just me I guess
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    38

    Default

    Our department rule and maybe the states rule is no calls past 10PM on a school night. We also cant leave school so i think that would defeat going to a call before school.......
    Rescue
    Eat, Sleep,
    Repeat

  6. #6
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    Oh yea, we'll just look it up in the United States Junior FF Federal Law Book.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    566

    Default

    Originally posted by ndvfdff33
    Man the juniors in the US have so many laws against them...When I was a junior,which wasn't too ungodly long ago,I could respond to calls any time day or night,During school(as long as I came back if wasn't needed and not during tests or exams),at night...You name it..I don't see what the big problem is as long as they keep their marks up and dont make it their number 1 priority..Thats just me I guess
    Just because you keep your 'marks up' doesn't mean jack crap! I'm not saying to go and fail all your classes, but just because you got an 'A' on that five page essay doesn't mean anything. Yes, good grades look nice to a college, but they also want you to be able to comprehend how and why things work, not just being able to 'do it'.

    Oh, and the 'laws' (Okay OSHA regulations, child labor laws), they've existed while you were a junior too. They were around before you were a junior, I can guarentee that.

  8. #8
    Forum Member ndvfdff33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Winterpeg Manitoba
    Posts
    2,461

    Default

    Originally posted by 42VTExplorer


    Just because you keep your 'marks up' doesn't mean jack crap! I'm not saying to go and fail all your classes, but just because you got an 'A' on that five page essay doesn't mean anything. Yes, good grades look nice to a college, but they also want you to be able to comprehend how and why things work, not just being able to 'do it'.

    Oh, and the 'laws' (Okay OSHA regulations, child labor laws), they've existed while you were a junior too. They were around before you were a junior, I can guarentee that.

    Where did I mention my marks...I did fine in school yes,but I was saying that if THEY keep their marks up it shouldn't be such a big deal..If their marks start to slip...They shouldn't be able to go...Here you could be failing everything and still go to calls whenever..Obviously if you are, your parents will have things to say about this...

    And as far as I know my province had a law I guess you could call it,passed in province house..That during school hours teachers cannot keep students from responding to calls unless during a test or exam..
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    924

    Default

    O.K. i dont even know where to start. So ill just pick a spot. As for leaving during school, we cant do it. Do i think we should? Yes, but before you jump down my throat let me finish. Only under certain instances should Jr.'s be able to. 1. if its an EMS and they have proper certification. 2. If there is a structure fire. Yes we can't do interior but the roles we can do at a structure would help certain depts so much its not funny, when u have to run 2 tankers and at least 3 people inside and the average response to a day time call in the middle of the week is 8 if your lucky, that makes a little bit of a pinch for manpower. Yes that is what Mutual Aid is for, but again with that dept you may only get 8 more. If you have a fully involved structure will 16 people really be enough?
    As for going to calls before school. I have no problem with it. I was gone all day at a fire that came in before school. If there is an exam and the fire can be under control then yeah go back for the test. Technically if your parents call the school and tell them you wont be in because of a fire call there is nothing the school can do here. (at least it works here) but then again my principal back then was a lot more understanding than the jack off i have now. that is a whole different story. and its not just because we cant respond from school.*
    As for responding before or after a certain time, that should be the individuals own call. that is like telling a grown person they cant respond to a fire after midnight cause they have to be to work at 8 oclock that is a choice you make. obviously if you have bad grades your parents will put a stop to it.
    This is my opinoin and it isnt likely to change any time soon.
    * = My principal tried telling me that if I was need that bad enough the chief could call and get me out of school if i didnt have anything terribly important going on that day. I almost died laughing when that idiot said it. I go, "Hello, Fire department paged by 911, 911 is an EMERGENCY number you think he will have time to call you. there are a lot of things he is responsible for on a fire scene, he isnt going to waste his breath on you. This should tell you a little about our principal, how he made it through life this far i have no clue.
    "Let's Roll." Todd Beamer 9/11 first soldier in the war on terror

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands ONE NATION UNDER GOD indivisible,with liberty, and justice for all.

    I.A.C.O.J. Probie and darn proud of it.

  10. #10
    FossilMedic
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    metro Washingon DC
    Posts
    526

    Default

    I spent three years teaching EMT as part of a rural high school vocational fire science program in Virginia. The students were required to be a member of their local volunteer fire department.

    This document provides the SUMMARY of the Pennsylvania child labor laws: http://www.dli.state.pa.us/landi/lib.../pdf/llc-5.pdf

    Here is the section on work hours:

    During School Term: Students may not work after midnight (Sunday thru Thursday) or before 6 AM during the entire week. (Exception: Students may work the night preceding a school holiday occurring during the school year until 1 AM-the next morning.) Students may work Friday night until 1 AM-Saturday morning and on Saturday night until 1 AM-Sunday morning.

    Even as a volunteer, firefighting is considered work by most states. In Virginia, 16 and 17 year olds are prohibited from operating inside burning buildings or in environments that are "immediately dangerous to live and health" (IDLH.) The exception is during NFPA 1403 compliant live fire training when supervised by certified instructors operating under a 1-to-5 instructor to student ratio.

    Many of the prohibited Pennsylvania occupations/activities cover tasks of a Firefighter I operating at an emergency scene - both inside and outside the burning building.

    Federal regulations can override state or local regulations. Go to http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/ to see what the federal government says about youth employment.

    MY OPINION is that you should not be responding from the school or on late night calls (after 9 pm) on school nights. That includes working structure fires, bad wrecks and local catastrophies. If your goal is to be a full-time firefighter, you must get your high school diploma. A high school diploma is the MINIMUM education requirement for firefighter candidates. I do not care how thinly staffed the local VFD is.

    To be a complete buzzkill:

    Pagers, minitors and cellphones OFF when in school.

    NO emergency lights/sirens on private vehicles
    - too many teenage responders are crashing and dying when responding to a fire call. Testosterone + adrenalin + clapped out car with bald tires and bad brakes = bad outcome event. It seemed like one of my high school students was crashing while responding to an emergency every month. (Doing the math - 30 students generated 9 to 10 crashes every academic year.)

    Once you turn 18 you can do whatever you want.

    Mike

    Assistant Professor Michael J. Ward
    EMS Management/Leadership
    The George Washington University
    http://www.gwumc.edu/ems/ward.html

    Fire Science Program Head
    Northern Virginia Community College
    http://www.nvcc.edu/home/mward/

    retired Captain II
    Fairfax County Fire and Rescue Department
    http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/ps/fr/homepage.htm
    Last edited by MikeWard; 12-31-2004 at 07:17 AM.

  11. #11
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    I agree with MikeWard. And my department rules do also.

    There will be more fires for you to attend after school is out. And yes, I'll work a FF or 2 short while the students are in school.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Juniors in our dept aren't allowed to run calls past ten. As for leaving school to run calls I am pretty sure that we aren't allowed and the only time I ever did was when we had a fire at the school.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber firefighterbeau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central ND USA
    Posts
    451

    Default

    We allow jr's to run calls anytime they can or want, with parents permission. The school acutally has a rule in there handbook that states students involved with Fire and EMS are allowed pagers or a cell phone, and excused from school if there is a call. We are lucky that our schools and parents are so willing to let these individuals participate. We are also lucky that our jr's are responsible enough not to abuse these privilages. Also the schools secretary is on the ambulance and has a radio at work, so when the students leave the school knows there is a real call. Not sure on any laws in other states, not sure what our laws in ND even say, just know this is how it works around here.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    216

    Talking Hello

    Although it as been a few years since I was a Jr. The department I was one did not allow response to any fire after 10pm. Except for confirmed structure fires. They also had a rule regarding grades. If you did not make passing grades "C" or above you would be suspended from runs. This was a great program and it really did help.

    During school hours if the Jr's or Senior members (those who happen to be 18 and still in school like I was. BUt only half my senior year) were in school they could not respond. If they were needed the dispatch would contact the school and have us sent.

    In regards to the question at first. Although the state might not put a time or etc on when you can respond. Your department sure can, if they feel thet need to. Like the OSHA laws your department most follow them, but if they feel that they want something stronger then as long as the min OSHA requirment is met. So if your dept wants you not responding after 6pm. Thats their right to do so. Remember if you got a good ran department they are looking out for your best interest. Although you might not like it and they are not letting do stuff. Its better to be safe then sorry.
    Thanks
    DM
    ___________
    "I am telling the truth, I was driving through the warehouse and the wall jumped in front of my fork lift. I honked the horn and it never listened."

  15. #15
    Forum Member firefightergtp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Chester, NY (Orange County)
    Posts
    294

    Default

    Junior members are not allowed to leave school for calls. They are also prohibited from responding from neighboring districts (alot of the High schoolers go to a HS in another district). Juniors arent supposed to respond after 1030, but most of the time we dont enforce this unless the junior starts to slip in their grades.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    54

    Default

    Our Explorers are not allowed at the fire house after 9 on school nights, and 10 on non school nights. They no longer respond to calls after 4 explorers/juniors were killed while doing so. Our explorers are inexperienced drivers and enthusiastic individuals, which makes an equation for disaster. If an explorer/jr is killed, hurt or kills/hurts someone while responding to a call who covers it? The child's parents is the answer and it's the dept- the Chief who gets sued- why have that risk. Jrs and Explorers are not covered under LODD benifits, Chris Kangas' family from PA learned that the hard way. Explorers and Jr's should be learning and training NOT responding to a call. As a fire fighter and the advisor, i do not want a probie fire fighter on the truck w/ me, let alone a teen ager. Our dept explorer post has been around for many years, and is in it's 3rd year of having Chiefs be former explorers, we all agree they need to train NOT respond to calls.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    38

    Default

    fitzjr11
    I almost disagree with you completly. I dont want to sit here and type a whole lot but I think I can say why in a few sentences... If JRS aren't going on calls they will not learn half as much. Yes training is the key part of being a junior, but they wont get any 1st hand experience by sitting at the firehouse and cutting up a car with the whole department or anything like that... I'm not saying give them a seat on the truck all the time, but if there is room, and they know what needs to be done, and what not to do, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to attend a call.
    I'm not saying this has happened a whole lot but there has been quite afew times in my department where a hardworking-willing to learn JR has been at the station waiting for a driver and they role the truck with the two of them... Now can you tell me if that is auto-accident or a fire or even a medical call you couldn't use his help? Because that is very helpful and gives him/her alot of experience... I know memebers could be in there POV there so that one JR might not matter to much but then let him sit back an learn or the smart thing might be get him involved.... Just some food for thought...
    One more thing I understand the problem with the 4 JRS getting killed. I can see where that draws quit a controvery. Now I strongly believe that if they go through some type of class on response to a call or what you do on the fireground and set strict guidelines that, that might solve that problem............
    Last edited by FF2303; 01-13-2005 at 09:29 PM.
    Rescue
    Eat, Sleep,
    Repeat

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    54

    Default

    As an officer of my dept and the advisor of the fire dept having the explorers at the scene is the LAST thing i want. As an officer there is enough going on that any officer does not need to be concerned about non-trained and non insurance covered individuals being there. Our explorers train every sun, thu with the dept and tues on their own. When they turn 18 and are able to go on calls they will be well equipped with knowledge and skills. Our 3 chiefs have all been through the explorer program, we all understand you wanting to go on calls, but in all reality unless you are in a department that is hurting for man power there is no need to be responding. As an explorer/jr you are learning, not doing.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    38

    Default

    I see what your saying. I can understand about having to account for them and the whole insurance thing. I want to say that our department does have insurance for the JRS but I cant say that for sure... Maybe every dept. is different with that.
    "we all understand you wanting to go on calls, but in all reality unless you are in a department that is hurting for man power there is no need to be responding. As an explorer/jr you are learning, not doing."
    I dont know if I misunderstood you there but I am FF no longer a junior. Was a few years ago but no longer. So as you have I have also been through it. I understand the man power issue too, if the department doesent have alot at the station then that is why I believe a JR should be able to go on a truck...
    Rescue
    Eat, Sleep,
    Repeat

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    54

    Default

    Insurance for Juniors and Explorers are two different catagories, Boy Scouts do not cover Explorers doing live fire, or in the "hot zone" and responding to calls, Junior fire fighters are covered under the dept policy, which depending on the department wil cover Jr's at calls.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts