I was wondering if there was a reason why more Aerialscope quints have not been made over the years. As I understand only a handful have ever been made. I would think think that body design-wise they would be similar to a Sutphen tower, but I may be wrong.
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Thread: Aerialscope question
12-28-2004, 03:35 PM #1
- Join Date
- Feb 2002
- Saginaw, Tx
12-28-2004, 04:06 PM #2
Ever climb up or down an Aerialscope? Ever climb up a real tower ladder? Notice any difference? Thought so. Why get a straight snorkle when you can get a ladder?"This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
12-29-2004, 09:10 AM #3
Whadda trying to say Bones? I thought the bucket did the work.Hehe T.C.
12-30-2004, 01:01 PM #4
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
Now why would you do that?
The Bucket is the advantage that Tower Ladders have over regular aerial ladders. The speed and acuracy at which one can remove multiple people from multiple points from building is what precludes the need for a ladder.(except for emergencies hense the one on top of the boom.)
An Aerial can only be placed to one window and remove persons from that window only. It must stay in position until the civilans are off the turntable. Have you ever taken anyone down a ladder at 3AM? I haven't done it myself because I'm an Engine guy however I've seen it happen and it takes a long time especailly if the victim is an old woman with slippers and a robe! If you don't believe me check out any buff flim I'm sure they probably have captured a number of them on film.
The Tower ladder however can be placed at 1 or multiple windows in succession and remove persons and drop them off at ground level in a faster time than aerials can.
What good I ask you is having a ladder with the bucket? If you use the ladder with the bucket on the end you've essentially taken away any advantage you had when you purchased the bucket. Now the Bucket is stuck in that postion untill the victim is removed from the turntable to the ground.
The aerial and the Bucket each have their place and strenghts. However they should be used accordingly in order to gain the most benefit out of each operationally speaking.
Last edited by FFFRED; 12-30-2004 at 01:15 PM.
12-30-2004, 01:08 PM #5
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
so wait, was is the difference between an scope and tower ladder? Besides the size of the ladder between the two going from the truck to bucket I can't figure what one does and the other doesn't.Bucks County, PA.
12-30-2004, 03:11 PM #6
Scope - bucket goes to window with 6 people. Can't all fit so some of you wait while I bring bucket down and come back up.
Towerladder - goes to window with 6 people. They climb down.
Ladder - goes to window and people can climb, but does not offer the advantages of having a bucket.
I know a lot of places have straight ladders, we have a short one ourselves at 50'. I'd rather the TL over the rest. Can do everything the others can just as well if not better.
*re-reading my post above, in my shortened typing, it reads as though I was saying get a straight ladder over a bucket/ladder. That was poor typing on my part. Sorry for the confusion."This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
12-30-2004, 03:56 PM #7
- Join Date
- Jan 2003
Seagrave who now builds Aerialsopes does not offer the scope as a quint. Some have been rebuilt by other companies with a tank and pump, and some have been built by Seagrave/FWD/Aerialscope with a pump. But the quint is not an option (currently) from the factory.
12-30-2004, 04:01 PM #8
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
Assuming all victims are concious. They are all going to be paniced and very hesitant to get on to a ladder to begin with. You have the manpower to bring everyone of them down to the ground? It is going to be a very slow process as most people I know have never climbed down an aerial barefoot at 0230.
The way you present it:They climb down
You would have to have a man help each one down, technically speaking. If they are a child you must carry them. If they are scared, paniced, passed out etc...it is going to be that much harder.
In the amount of time it takes to get 6 people down an aerial properly with someone in front of each one of them or carrying them if they are panicy, children or incapactiated. I could have made at least two trips with only one man in the bucket and one at the pedestal at a minimum.
I would have taken all I could (if in the unlikely event I don't think I can handle all of them in the basket) I would have been able to make 2 trips with less manpower and in a shorter time span than it took you to get those civilians to climb down.
The reason they would have to wait one way or the other:
1. If they can't all fit in the Aerialscope bucket they must wait, although if they are going to burn otherwise all of them will fit and you just have to hope for the best. Because the alternative would be either let them burn or put them in the Bucket and hope the capacity isn't reached. (remember there is a safety factor built in)
2. Now with your senario where you have 6 persons at a window who can't all get in the bucket must wait. So what you are saying is they don't have time for me to make 2 trips to get them. So you must get everyone out of that room NOW. Well Unless you properly space these persons out along the ladder you can't put all in the bucket either. You get one or two in the bucket and they help them to get on the ladder and begin to climb down. Now the rest are still in the room filled with smoke (hopefully no fire) and you are going to have difficulty getting them to climb down (THAT IS A GAURANTEE)
So either way they must wait for either a second trip or for you to get the first civilians to climb down the ladder fast enough to keep pulling them out of the window so as not to overload the capacity.
I'm sure since my dept over its history has brought more people out of tall buildings by ladder than anyone else that this issue would have presented itself if a ladder was acutally needed.
We have some of the most overcrowded tenements and buildings in the world and it hasn't been shown to be an issue here of removing persons from a building. So I can't see where this would affect the rest of america with its lower density and fewer tall buildings.
It is more realistic you will have a few people at different windows all looking for rescue in stead of one large group of 6 at one window.
We even tried it here before, At one time have a few of these "Ladder Towers" either by Suptphin, or American La France. Ladder Co. 119, Ladder Co. 14 and Ladder Co. 163 all had these rigs at one time or another. They found the ladder wasn't a nessesary component of the Tower since it had the Bucket.
This reminds me of a county wide training session I attended in my former dept. where the host dept. had used a number of Fire Explorers as trapped victims in the training tower that must be rescued. They used the Tower Ladder in the method you describe and it was very unrealistic at best. These kids were very familiar with climbing down a ladder and were of course looking to impress every one on their climbing ability. There was no one to coax down, no one paniced, no FFs were used to help each one down. It wasn't realistic and it I felt was further evidence of many people in postions of authority who really don't know what they are doing and don't have realistic views of how operations for them would unfold.
If you really had so many people that needed to come out one window or off one fire escape then commit the aerial to that location to provide egress for all the persons at that point if they are really in imminent danger.
But don't commit a Tower Ladder for that task, leave the aerial to do its work and keep the Tower ladder free for other access or if someone suddenly needs removal from another location. Or more importantly a FF gets trapped behind the fire and needs removal.
For us if there were that many 10-45s at one window we would probably have a stick and a tower ladder postioned there to remove all of them from the window.
While on paper and in theory it sounds like a good idea to have a ladder with the Bucket, in reality it is an expense that wasn't needed and the $$$ could have been better spent elsewhere.
Last edited by FFFRED; 12-30-2004 at 04:22 PM.
12-30-2004, 11:00 PM #9
Not being a smart*ss, but is a Scope equipped apparatus more cost effective than a comparably long tower ladder? Seems Sutphens aren't any cheaper than a typical tower ladder, though I may be incorrect.
I'm just curous, as the comment was made about paying for an expense that isn't needed.
12-30-2004, 11:20 PM #10
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
We are considering a TL because we have midrise sr. homes going up all over the place and found find it useful. But it seems like many of you disagree with that...any idea why one would get a bucket over a strait stick?Bucks County, PA.
12-30-2004, 11:21 PM #11
FFFred, I will definitely agree that your department has done more ladder rescues than mine. And I will defer to "their" knowledge of why they do it the way they do. As you said yourself, not everywhere is like where you deal with. A TL can go up and down just as fast and easy as a Scope for those that don't climb. Having a useable ladder attached to that bucket is an added bonus. I'm even willing to bet that if there is fire biting at their rears, they'll climb down. God willing, we'll never find that out."This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
12-31-2004, 12:08 AM #12
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
I don't think anyone here is for or against Tower Ladders. We were just having a discussion regarding the Aerialscope and the fact that it doesn't have a ladder (other than for emergency egress)
I think it is a top of the line rig and much better than the ones I used when I first started in the fire service. I was accustom to the rear mount E-Ones, Sutphins and Pierce Ladder Towers and they all pale in comparison to the Aerialscope as far as Tower Ladder Operations are concerned.
Just one mans opinion though.
12-31-2004, 12:47 AM #13Originally posted by FFFRED
I was accustom to the rear mount E-Ones, Sutphins and Pierce Ladder Towers and they all pale in comparison to the Aerialscope as far as Tower Ladder Operations are concerned.
Also, it seemed like you implied in a post above that eliminating a true "aerial ladder" from the setup and using a telescoping boom resulted in saving money... if so, I believe Aerialscopes are significantly more expensive than tower ladders. I can't recite the numbers off hand, but if don't think it was pocket change.
12-31-2004, 09:54 AM #14Just one mans opinion though
This, I believe, has been a good discussion and hope it continues.
This morning, I remembered a call we had years ago, before I was an active member. 3 story elderly residential home. Approx. 30 residents at the time, most mobile but a few in wheelchairs (ever wonder why the wheelchair bound are put on the third floor?). Single door entrance in front and 1 in back, no other doors. 1 staircase to the second floor with stairs to third floor above that. This staircase was located just inside to the left of the front door. 1 resident, on O2, decided to have a smoke near the front door and ended up lighting the room on fire, which spread up the stairs. At that time, for aerials, we had a 75' Snorkle (still in use) and a utility truck with a neat little 35' ladder (no, not a ground ladder). As I watched the operation, the Snorkle was going to windows with 2 FF's in it, taking out 2 victims and bringing them down. The 35' ladder became a stairway to the second floor. At least a dozen FF's used that ladder to make entry. At least 20 residents used that ladder for exit, along with FF's. Some residents walked/climbed down the ladder, some were brought down in baskets sliding the rails. It sold me on limitations that the "bucket only" concept had.
I have to go along with Resq14 on asking why the Scope is so much better than a TL? I also don't know of the cost differences but guess that might come into play. Please, continue to discuss as this has been informative.
12-31-2004, 09:57 AM #15
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
Among other things I like:
-The simplest method to get all the ourriggers and jacks down and get the bucket in the air.
Other apparatus I worked with had all these interlock issues that made it difficult at some times to get it from jacks to boom.
-The single handle control at the rear of the bucket. This leaves the front clear for when you are having to remove a unconcious victim out a window. Why other companies place these large consoles right in the front middle I'll never understand.
-The doors are free swinging, no bar that must be raised. The doors are also larger and easier to get through.
-The outside step is huge and has a rubber bumper on its entire outside surface.
-More storage for ladders including 2-section 35 ft extention ladders. 3 section ladders are horible.
-Platform capacity isn't diminished by flowing water. At any angle. I remember we had all these complicated senarios where you had x amount of people with water at certain angles angle etc..
- Depending on how you spec it you have more storage than anyother Truck in the industry.
-I also like the Anti slip steps Seagrave uses on our rigs, Very simple and effective even when covered in snow.
-Compartment doors are postive locking, None of this slam shut and it looks closed but really isn't and probably will pop open.
Low overall height.
Waterway isn't in a exposed postion on the bottom instead it is high on the side where there isn't any chance of lowering the waterway on to an obstruction.
The rig is very tough, fast response at the controls and can take a beating and keep going.
That is why I like the Aerialscope.
12-31-2004, 10:11 AM #16
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
Your story is exactly what I'm talking about.
Each has it strong points...
The aerial is good for placing at a specific location and using it multiple times. Like we often use to the roof of a tenement.
The Tower Ladder is good for removing many persons from many different points and is also supperior in application of aerial streams.
When you combine the two all you are doing is taking away from the strength of the Tower Ladder by making it into a normal aerial. Therefore it can't move window to window yet now must be left there for everone to climb down.
12-31-2004, 12:54 PM #17
Thank you for replying.
I think many of your points concerning the pluses of Aerialscopes can also be found on good aerial platforms, including flows at any angle/any elevation (true capacity is reduced to 2 FF's and a lesser distributed load, but that's the bare minimum), large outside steps around the basket, bumpers, easy access doors, etc. While I've never set an Aerialscope, I'd be impressed if it were any easier than our E-One... its simplicity is its greatest feature imho.
Our waterway is exposed, and yes the aerial control box is right in the way of everything. Also, I'd love to see them move towards a one-handed control... makes more sense to me.
But since I've never worked on an Aerialscope, I'm just commenting from the peanut gallery and trying to understand. In my area, I think our truck gives us flexibility to handle many situations it might encounter. Since it's highly unlikely my town would ever have more than one type of aerial apparatus (haha or more than one aerial, period), I think our aerial platform fits our needs best.
I'm beginning to understand, though, how the Aerialscope fits-in to FDNY operations with your explanations, and why it works better for you. Thanks again.
Last edited by Resq14; 12-31-2004 at 12:59 PM.
12-31-2004, 01:00 PM #18
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
First of all -- Safe and Happy New Year - Brothers.
I’m a bit lazy and limited on time today so I’m going to cheat and just copy and paste a past reply to a Aerial vs Tower Ladder/Elevating Platform question. Hopefully this doesn’t make my two cent response too long winded.
I did subtly touch upon the walkway issue. Whenever I post my opinions on here. I try to provide insight into mfg selection without specifically identifying a mfg. I try to help others ask the appropriate questions that will provide them with the info and answers they need to make an informed decision. I just have no tolerance for the MFG tit for tat -- childish ranting, half truth story telling and ignorant statements made by a few that usually follow on these forums.
In my opinion, I believe the Aerial Scope (Originally Baker) to be bulletproof whose design has passed the test of time (early 1960’s) through FDNYs and fire services war years. That being said, they did make some changes to the box boom design a few years back and unfortunately, also succumbed to adding those ridiculous interlocks to their design. A well trained experienced truck chauffeur should know how to get past some of these temper-mental interlocks when they become troublesome (spare change in your pocket) regardless of MFG.
I don’t want this interpreted as meaning other MFG’s don’t make quality products with excellent operational features and attributes. They do. From my experience the price range for a reasonably equipped Tower Ladder/Elevating Platform regardless of MFG is $700,000 to $800,000.00. I have seen some Vol depts/districts around me with big budgets spend close to a Million (Ridiculous).
Never let a salesman lead during a demo. Evaluations of apparatus must be performed under real world conditions not in a Fire House or other wide-open parking lot.
Here’s my prior post where I tried to ask the questions that would provide many of the same answers that FFFRED and BONES have already stated regarding outrigger/jack type & spread, platform design,capacity & escape ladder vs fully fuctional walkway. Bottom line, due to FDNY's structure fire response and make up of their truck co apparatus fleet of elevating platforms and sticks, the walkway issue in my opinion becomes a mute pont.
------ My opinion on the attributes of tower ladders/elevating platforms vs aerials (sticks). People have written books on this stuff so I’ll keep it short and as generic as possible.
I’m going to utilize an aerial with a 500 lb tip load (in any position wet or dry) in my comparison. The NFPA 2 to1 structural and 1-1/2 to 1 stability factors provide a more than adequate margin of safety. I personally believe the super heavy-duty aerial models (750 to 1000 pound tip load ratings) to be a bit excessive and totally eliminate many of the advantages of the aerial (straight stick). The super-heavy-duty aerials require the same massive octopus like jacking systems that a platform requires minus the safety advantage of the bucket. Some MFG’s tower ladder/elevating platform jacking systems are less obtrusive.
The Tower Ladder/Elevating Platform will also meet minimum NFPA requirements for tip load both wet and dry.
First we need to answer some district/response area questions. You really need to answer these types of questions when determining what type & mfg of aeria/platform apparatus best suits your needs.
Do you currently have a tower ladders/elevating platforms and aerial ladder's in your dept? If you do not, how many and how far away from your district/response area are they?
What’s type of structures do I have in my district/response area? In which and where do the greatest % of our structure fires occur:
Singe occupancy or multiple occupancy residential (single family- ranches, cape cods, high ranches, split levels etc. -- 2-1/2 ‘s and 3’s -- Queen Ann’s, Victorians or multi family garden apartments? What’s the set back of these structures?
Multiple story/family --- apartment buildings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 floors above ground level.
Multiple use occupancies first floor commercials (store-fronts with apartments above).
Strip stores (taxpayers), Malls and Mega-stores.
Multistory -- retail, office, light or heavy industrial buildings and/or storage mfg facilities.
What type of setting is my response area? These are my personal definitions but I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.
Urban – very high population density. Narrow congested streets with cars parked on both sides. Structures have short setbacks from the street and are built abutting each other or with narrow alleyways between. May or may not have low to moderate height tree’s and/or overhead utilities. Retail, commercial and industrial structures are found in close proximity to residential up to and including abutting or above each other.
Urban/Suburban - high poplulation density Found mostly in the North East/MidAtlantic and Midwest (older suburbs built prior to and shortly after WWI and abutting older cites). Roads are narrow laned congested (cars parked on both sides of streets) lined with trees and power poles. Structures have relatively short setbacks (15’-30’) from the street. Retail, commercial and industrial structures are found in close proximity to residential, usually not abutting each other. High quantity of strip stores (tax payers) many with apartments above especially in downtown areas. Many single-family structures now illegally converted to multiple occupancies without the required building-safety upgrades (cellar/basement apartments).
Suburban – usually wider streets with larger/longer driveways that usually alleviate the issue of on-street parking. May have buried utility lines/cable or may be installed in rear yards. Structures have moderate to high set backs from the roadway 30’ +. Retail, commercial and industrial structures are usually isolated away from residential areas in shopping malls, office/industrial parks. Major roadways are dotted with strip stores usually without apartments above.
Rural -- out there in the sticks, lots of room. May have quite a bit of unpaved roads/driveways that limit access to residential structures. You usually have to drive to one of the settings listed above to go to work or shopping. There may be some very high hazard facilities both above and below-ground in the middle of that farmland. Above and below-ground propane/petroleum/petrochemical, munitions, refining, Mfg or storage.
Advantages - Tower Ladder/Elevating Platform:
Safety, Safety, Safety – stable platform area to work off when performing OV and exterior overhaul operations. Especially valuable when performing roof ventilation on structures with peaked roofs i.e. Queen Ann’s, Garden Apartments, Truss, Gables – etc.
Safety -- Its a lot easier (less fatiguing) to ride the saws, axes, roof hooks, haligans etc. up to the roof in the bucket as opposed to them being strapped on your shoulder and in your free hand and walked up the ladder. Especially when being done at low angles of elevation. BTW, if I had a choice between using an interior stairway of an adjoining structure or aerial (stick) to access & carry my tools to the roof, I’d choose the adjoining buildings interior stairway.
Safety – Occupant removal especially when incapacitated. Self-explanatory.
Safety – Ease of - and safe repositioning of device with FF’s still at tip and operating from bucket. (Should not be routinely done with aerials however, we all know there are times when you must make exceptions.)
Portable master-stream usually 1000gpm or above that can be moved anywhere from ground level and up – left and right without interrupting the flow. Ability to operate master-stream appliance anywhere from the 8:00 to 10:00 O’clock positions with the platform elevation at or between the –10 to 70+ degree positions (depending upon mfg spec’s).
Disadvantages - Tower Ladders/Elevating Platforms:
Vehicle dimensions & footprint are usually much greater than that of an aerial (stick).
May not be able to access many of the streets in your district/response area due to overall vehicle size
Requires higher level of chauffer training i.e. Larger overall vehicle size, operational and tactical differences (when to enter and not enter the fire block, positioning of device, etc.).
May not be able to pass the tower ladders elevating superstructure and bucket between obstructions due to increased width and height i.e. between utility/cable/telephone -- lines/poles, trees, narrowly spaced buildings etc.
Increased number of extending jacks (usually two sets) and greater jack spread even when shorted. May not be able to deploy jacks due to narrow roadways or parallel obstructions i.e. Parked vehicles.
Higher purchase cost -- somewhere between 100,000 to 200,000 or more depending upon spec’s and mfg.
Higher maintenance costs due to greater complexity and size i.e. larger/heavier duty superstructure & driveline (engine, transmission, axles & brakes).
Depending upon the mfg. The elevating platform may not have a continuous means of ingress and egress other than an emergency escape ladder. Not a big deal if your dept has both aerials and elevating platforms included in your structure fire response. When a FF makes entry into a window or onto a roof via an aerial or tower ladder a continuous means of egress must be supplied. The unit that placed the FF in the window or onto the roof should not be moved to or utilized at another location unless it has been confirmed that the FF has another safe accessible means of egress (another tower ladder/elevating platform, aerial, adjoining roof, etc).
I’m not going to separately list the +’s and –‘s of the Aerial (straight stick) since most can be surmised from the tower ladder/elevating platform evaluation. For the most part I’d just be repeating myself with a few exceptions.
Once again these are just my observations and opinions. I’m sure others on this forum will supply you with some valuable insight. I would suggest that you do a search for articles written by the experts --- Chief Bill Peters (retired JCFD), Lt Mike Wilbur (FDNY), Chief Harry Carter (retired NFD) and Chief Vincent Dunn (retied FDNY).
Mike Wilbur has written quite a few articles on Aerials and Tower Ladders in recent issues of Firehouse Magazine, some can also be found on this web page as well.
I really need to learn how to utilize the format options when copying and pasting from another document.
Again, be safe and have a great New Year.
12-31-2004, 01:27 PM #19
I think the issue that was brought up deals more with the following:
What are the pros/cons of an Aerialscope when compared to an aerial platform?
The quote you posted deals more with "straight stick vs. scope/platform." Bones got me curious as well as to the specific advantages/drawbacks an Aerialscope has compared to aerial platforms. Your quote generally lumps them together and compares them to straight sticks.
I did find the following pertinent, though:
"Depending upon the mfg. The elevating platform may not have a continuous means of ingress and egress other than an emergency escape ladder. Not a big deal if your dept has both aerials and elevating platforms included in your structure fire response. When a FF makes entry into a window or onto a roof via an aerial or tower ladder a continuous means of egress must be supplied. The unit that placed the FF in the window or onto the roof should not be moved to or utilized at another location unless it has been confirmed that the FF has another safe accessible means of egress (another tower ladder/elevating platform, aerial, adjoining roof, etc). "
Last edited by Resq14; 12-31-2004 at 01:30 PM.
12-31-2004, 03:08 PM #20
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
I was trying to show/state by using my prior post that different MFG's operational attributes and features may work well in some situations and geographic/demographic response areas and not so well in others. This applies weather your comparing a stick to a tower ladder/elevating platform or elevating platform (no walkway) to a tower ladder. Especially when considering what type of truck co apparatus and manpower you have assigned on your structure fire responses. I guess my laziness of copying and pasting a long-winded prior response didn’t get my point across. Sorry about that.
Once again, I try to make my point in a subtle way without being MFG specific. For example --- two extending -- radial outrigger, under-slung or H style jacks/tormentors are better suited to congested area's and increase deployment %’s as opposed to those 4 octopus type H style jacks that many MFG’s are offering today. I’m sure you’ll be able to name those MFG’s I’m referencing with regard to only two extending jacks on their tower ladders/elevating platforms. Many of the tower ladders out their today are way to big and cannot access or properly set up in proximity to the fire building due to their size and operational limitations in congested area’s. Unfortunately, this may wind up being the case in the majority of a dept’s working structure fire responses. These rigs only serve as expensive personnel carriers and toolboxes due to their size. That’s a lot of $ and resources being used for the really big- big one that may occur once in a blue moon. Aerial devices should be spec’d so they can be put to work at the majority of your structure fires not the minority. The benefit of that nice safe bucket is gone when the rig is parked down the block or you can’t deploy the stabilization system in proximity to the building. That was just one of the many points I was trying to make by inserting my prior post.
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