1. #1
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    Question Water Supply Suggestions...

    Looking for some water supply ideas/suggestions.
    We had a call the other night that we ended up laying 700 feet of 2.5" hose to supply our pumper from the road and I would like to better prepare our department for the next incident that requires that we do that. Let me give a little info about our equipment and what we are good-not so good at:

    First due pumper - 1000 GPM, 1000 gal. tank, set up with TFT ball intake valve with suction gasket, 2 5" hard suction with stortz connectors on truck and 3 more on two tankers all with stortz connectors (with suction gaskets on all).

    First due tanker - 3200 gallons with 4000 gallon drop tank, one rear mounted dump valve and one side mounted dump valve, one 5" stortz outlet, one 2.5 outlet

    Second due tanker - 3500 gallons with our old 2500 gallon drop tank (why get rid of a good drop tank), rear mounted dump valve one 5" stortz outlet, one 2.5 outlet

    Second due pumper - 350 GPM with 1000 gallon tank

    Other Equipment - reserve pumper ( I guess) old American Lachance ha
    1250 GPM 750 gallon, 2.5 ton 6X6 1000 gallon brush truck, 1,500 tanker that we don't use much.

    When I look around our community I see a lot of places where we can't do our usual routine of a drop tank near the pumper supplied by the tanker fleet, which we are really good at. Sometimes we just hook the 5" hard suction straight from the pumper to the tanker and nurse off of it. What we are not set up for is what I would call relay or supply pumping.

    I have a couple of trains of thought on this, the first is to leave the first due at the driveway and pump to the smaller pumper. Problem with this is that our second due pumper is not well equipped (shame on us) so some of our firemen don't want to take this route.

    One of our guys wants to take the small pumper and set it up to draft and pump to the large pumper.....I know that won't work!

    Then there is mutual aid, would you believe that our two close mutual aid fire departments are set up for drafting! They don't even have a low flow device on their truck. I'm going to do a survey with them and see if they have 1000 GPM pumper so atleast they could use some of our suction equipment if need be. We are really going to need to step up training with these departments so it will work better.

    The only other thought that I had would be to set up one drop tank at the first due pumper and pump with an open line to it from the second due pumper, so that we could atleast get close to 350 GPM to the truck.

    Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to put all the facts out there to look at. Boy what I would give for another 1000 GPM pumper and 1200-1400 feet of LDH!


    Last edited by arhaney; 12-29-2004 at 10:46 PM.
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    Have your first engine in leave a clappered valve (or siamese with gate valves) at the road so the tankers can off load into it whatever way you choose. I won't go into specifics but make sure you can have one tanker offloading while one is hooking up.

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    Our tankers don't have pumps.
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    Do you have any coventry pumps that you could set up to supply a drop tank near your pump? You can only pump as much as your weekest pump!
    Hypothetical - if you are somewhere that only your pump will fit, put your drop tanks on the road in a fashion where they only have to fill one tank (each tank drafts from the other to the supply tank) at that point you wold need a pump (say you old lafrance with the 1250gpm) drafting and pumping to your first in pump with LDH hose. This should give you ample supply to your first in pump.

    Option 2 - set up your drop tanks as in the first option have your second in pump drafting and set up several coventry pumps have them all pumping into a manifold with LDH outlet to supply your first in truck.

    a couple of ideas for you
    Dave

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    Greetings Dave404, One dumb question, what the heck is a coventry pump?
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    Never a dumb question - just a diffrence in terminology. Coventry pump here is an Auxillary pump that we can leave beside a river to fill our tankers. We also use them beside our drop tanks to fill trucks at brush fires. Much the same as a trash pump you can rent except with a fire pump on it.
    Dave

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    WE call them portable pumps.
    Last edited by arhaney; 12-30-2004 at 09:32 PM.
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    arhaney,

    Your "wish list" is the best solution.

    One other way is the "reverse lay". Most depts haven't used them since the advent of LDH but they used to be a normal operation.

    The reverse lay is laying hose from the fire to a water source.

    This entailed having a hose load consisting of 2.5" with a gated wye with two 1.5" lines laid on a "skid" top of the 2.5". You dropped the skid at the fire and laid hose to the water source.

    You also stripped all equipment from the engine prior to laying the hose so you had what you needed at the fire scene instead of several hundred feet away.

    The major drawbacks are being able to get turned around or backing into the incident so you can lay hose out, and longer times involved getting the attack lines into operation.

    How about preplanning for an automatic mutual aid for those areas where you run into this situation? Your engine could drop line going in and have the mutual aid engine relay pump to you.

    Stay Safe
    IACOJ

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    RayR49, Like you I'm starting to think that preplanning with mutual aid will be the best solution. It will just require some training and equipment checking in conjunction with them to assure that they can handle the drafting from a portable tank.

    We have used on one occasion 2.5" with the gated wye, worked fairly good too. Back then we used 1.5" hose as opposed to now using 1.75" hose, wonder if the 2.5" line will supply enough water for the 1.75" lines?
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    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

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    Well, first off it doesnt matter which pumper goes where because you are limited to the flow of your smallest pump (providing the water is there). You need to evaluate your building stock. What size,construction and occupancies do you have? Then look at your response times, what is the average time of your first arriving and what is the average time arrival of your entire compliment. You should be able to develop some type of time/temp curve and figure out what size fire you normally have on your arrival. Once this is known, then you can figure out your fire flow needed, I bet its more than 350gpm. Now its time to justify to your local government or your department the need for increased pump capacity, LDH,CAFS etc...
    ...ok, lets say though that that is not possible due to money or other circumstances. My thought on a temporary solution is this. First ensure that the mutual aid pumper is coming on initial dispatch, even for alarms. First solution, lay dual lines with newer pumper. Have 350gpm set up in draft (leave room for mutual aid pumper) and supply one line. Once mutual aid arrives have them set up and supply the other line. Second solution, if a single lay must be done. Put a clappered siamese between your first and second section of supply hose. Have your 350gpm pumper begin supply. Once mutual aid is on scene they can draft and then flow into the siamese. Once their pressure exceeds yours the clapper will force your side shut and they will take over with the supply.

    It really sounds like you need to maximize your available water. Less friction loss, LDH is vital. CAFS expensive, but may be invaluable with its knock down ability while your water supply is being set up. This would be especially true if your first pumper arrives well ahead of the entire compliment.

    Good Luck

    Jim

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    wonder if the 2.5" line will supply enough water for the 1.75" lines
    I have a few areas that require hose stretches of 400' to get to the building. Our setup is a 2.5" with gated wye gets stretched to the scene by hand. 2 other FF's each grab a strapped together pack of 100' 1 3/4" with a nozzle. Many times we have had no problem flowing 150gpm from each of these 1 3/4" lines via that 2.5".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    The other options are in upgrading your pumps or go to a CAFS system. We operate a CAFS truck 300 gallons of water, front bumper mounted nozzle, Air run Jaws/cutters, cascade air bottle and of course 2 preconnected hose lines - affordable at around$180,000 canadian. It has been an awesome truck and has really helped with our rural water supply needs. Operating at 1%foam the water is equal to around 2000 gallons.

    The reverse lay works but is timely to set up, Good thoughts on Mutual Aid but still a priority to pre plan your fires as if you were the only ones to respond (mutual aid could be at another call).

    If money is the greatest problem and you dont have the option of purchasing equipment - utilize what you have, this may mean rearranging your trucks in order of responding and equipment - if some people dont want to be seen in the old pump, tell them its not about being "bling" its about providing the service to the people.

    Jim nailed it right on, fire pre plan your area and calculate your fire flow rate. This is a great tool for lobbying for new equipment.
    Good Luck
    Dave

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    We have the same situations we used to lay 2 21/2s, went to 4 inch bought it used. 5inch would be better. We lay in the LDH set up the second engine and pump out of a dump tank. So you can use your American LaFrance or mutual aid. Another thought you could use a Turbo draft to supply the attack engine.

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    PITT8TRUCK, The placement of the engines can make a significant difference. A 1,000 gpm pump can produce:
    1,000 gpm at 150 psi
    700 gpm at 200 psi
    500 gpm at 250 psi

    Given this information, the 1,000 gpm pump can deliver water a lot farther than a 350 gpm pump (there is more pressure available to overcome hose friction loss).

    Also, a 350 gpm pump can pump more than 350 gpm. If the 1,000 gpm pump can deliver 700 gpm at, say, 100 psi to the 350 gpm pump, the 350 pump will pump 700 gpm (+/-). This is just an example - nothing hard and fast about these numbers. Certainly more than 350 gpm.

    The bottom line is, in general, to place the largest pump at the source and the smallest pump at the fire. It would be more limiting to place the smallest pump at the source.

    What you described as your "first solution" is a notable exception to the above. But as you explained, it involves mutual aid. If there is no mutual aid and there is only the 1,000 gpm pump and the 350 gpm pump, then the 1,000 gpm pump should be located at the water source.

    By the way, GO STEELERS!!!!!!!!!!!

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    H20,

    Very good point and you are exactly correct. Because of the friction loss they would definetly reduce their gpm abilities. One thing is for sure and that is in order to keep the fire flow below 350gpm they are going to have to get there real quick, and practice, practice, practice, on setting up. I dont know the circumstances of this department but sometimes I feel ashamed knowing there are companies around me that have more apparatus than average number of responders. We definetly need to get grants dispersed out to some of these departments.

    And Definetly GO STEELERS,

    Jim

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    I agree. Getting there is half the battle (maybe less). With the set up they have, there is very little time to discuss operations at the scene. Pre-Planning and Practice will be their best weapon. Automatic mutual aid should also be seriously considered. Then, using the set you described, will achieve even better results.

    I almost forgot. The real limiting factor, in this case, is the 2-1/2" hose. If 700 feet is needed, LDH is certainly warranted.

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    Thanks to everyone who have responded so far! FireH2O, PITT8TRUCK, At the last fire that we ran that 700' of 2.5" we had to pump at about 220 PSI to get the flow needed. That's why I'm afraid to use that 350 GPM at the source, we would have far outran it's supply capacity with only about 175 GPM available. I don't know if I trust the American Lafrance in this situation. Other than LDH what do you think of the idea of using the clappered wye and starting out with the 350 GPM until mutual aid arrives? I think that 1200 - 1400 feet of LDH would be a great item for the next grant period. This is not something that we have to do often, but........................I hate to lose a structure!
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    Get a 2,000 GPM pumper next time you buy one, and definately definately definately switch to LDH. WE had the same problems you're having now in the late 70s, and we moved over to LDH. Our engines and engine/tankers are 2,000GPM(engines) and 1,500GPM(e/ts). Each has a minimum of 1,000 feet of 5" hose, except for Engine 1 which has 2,000 feet because it's also first due to a neighboring rural township that has the exact same problem as you do. LDH + big pumps are definately the answer and I'd go and beg for a grant for a new engine from someone.

    Do you at least lay dual 2.5" lines? That may help somewhat. Also, remember that centrifrugal pumps take advantage of incoming pressure, so you might be able to coax something more out of that 350(but not much).

    Like others have said, autoload mutual aid on all fires involving a structural(even REPORTED fires and smoke investigations). That's your best bet until you get some $$$$.
    Last edited by SpartanGuy; 01-02-2005 at 11:51 PM.
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    arhaney, You need to do the calcs to see what flow rates you can achieve.

    It sounds as though your water supply consists of tankers and dump tanks. What flow rate can you maintain at the dump tank - 100 gpm, 500 gpm, 1,000 gpm??

    Considering a 700 ft hose lay and, say, 200 psi devoted to overcoming friction loss:
    1) one 2-1/2" hose can supply approximately 380 gpm
    2) two 2-1/2" hoses can supply 760 gpm
    3) one 3" hose can supply 600 gpm
    4) one 2-1/2" and one 3" can supply 980 gpm
    5) one 4" hose can supply 1,200 gpm
    6) one 5" hose can supply 1,900 gpm

    Next, consider what equipment you have available to move the water (including mutual aid). Also consider what equipment you may have in the next few years as it will probably have a greater capacity than what you have now. In other words, buy your hose now for the engine you will have in the future. Of course, I am suggesting LDH.

    Next, consider how you will place the engines (including mutual aid) at the scene. The arrangement using the clappered wye as suggested by PITT8TRUCK is a good plan if mutual aid is available in a reasonable time.

    Next, match the flow rates with what you need. What is the hazard and what is the needed fire flow? If the needed fire flow exceeds the available water supply, the fire is lost.

    I suggest you draw diagrams of as many scenarios as possible. Try various hose lays (number of hoses, hose lengths, and different hose diameters) and different placements of the engines (yours and mutual aid). Do the calcs to see what you can achieve (on paper). Then drill on the scenarios to see what you can really achieve. When doing the calcs donít forget to consider elevation differences and allowing 20 psi remaining at the suction of the second engine. And remember, LDH is available in different pressure ratings.

    Right now, you are limited by the single 2-1/2" supply hose. You need to improve upon the hose and the pumps.

    I hope you like number crunching.

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    We do call for mutual aid for almost every fire. When we started working on our Class 8 insurance rating, we had to pump 500 GPM for one hour uniterrupted. We didn't have any problem doing this on several occasions with the 3200 Gallon tanker, the 1500 gallon tanker and using the small drop tank. This was with a tanker travel distance of a 6 mile round trip. With the new tanker and larger drop tank we should be able to go perhaps 750 GPM. With mutual aid we should be able to far surpass that. Like I said earlier, this is one thing that we are pretty good at. Looks like a good training session for warm weather!

    Perhaps the dual 2.5" hose lay will be our best line of defense for now. We usally have atleast 1400 feet of 2.5" on the truck.

    Oh, by the way FireH2O, I hate number crunching!
    Chief
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

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