Flashover survival training

[Muttly92094]

Im just wondering how many of you have gone through the "flashover" survival simulator. Also what are your thoughts on it? Good, or bad. Is it a little to dangerous of a training tool?

[LeuitEFDems]

I've been through the flashover simulator that the Mass Fire Academy has 2 times. I would DEFINATELY recommend it for any firefighter that hasn't gone though it. I don't know about other states, but here you have to go through a roughly 4 hour training before you go in it. there are 4 staff members in there with you ,and if there is a problem, you WILL bail. That's the closest I ever want to come to a flashover

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

The simulators are very safe indeed and most effective too, if used to accepted risk assessed safety standards, operating under strict protocols and guidelines. They are ideal for training in fire behavior and nozzle techniques. If misused or operated in a way that was never meant by untrained personnel, they can be very dangerous!

[martinm]

My service operates a flashover simulator within its BA complex. Its a vital tool for physically demonstrating the effects of a flashover to firefighters. The only drawback is the number of opportunities to use it over the course of a year are limited. Powerpoint and videos are okay in their way but actual flames are what firefighters need more of to prepare them for this phenonomen

[sbfdco1]

Muttly - We went to the Rockland Cty Training facility beginning of last year. Excellant training, highly recommend it. Closest I've come to a flashover as well. Gives you a basic understanding of what to look for just before the romm flashes over.
I would say it is about as safe as you could get. There is a classroom session before the simulator. They instructors there also put you through two saftey checks before you are allowed into the simulator. There are also instructors in there w/a PW can as well. Bail out is available too.

[jfTL41]

We use the PW can to demonstrate the power of the can for delaying flashover and protecting the brothers searching ahead of the line or waiting for the line, the water can will buy you valuable time to scoot out or even to simply get the door shut between you and the fire.
The Flashover unit is a valuable tool that demonstrates the warning signs we should be looking for as we operate, these warning signs tell us it's time to go. We do not use it for nozzle technique instruction as they do overseas. The only nozzle instruction demonstrated is the difference between solid stream and fog and once the fog is used the students see (and feel) why you don't use a fog stream in a building.

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Originally posted by jfTL41
The only nozzle instruction demonstrated is the difference between solid stream and fog and once the fog is used the students see (and feel) why you don't use a fog stream in a building.

I would suggest that this should read

'The only nozzle instruction demonstrated is the difference between solid stream and fog and once the fog is used the students see (and feel) ....how effective a correctly applied fog stream can be'

[shenry32]

I think that they are great training tools for experienced firefighters. I really think its best for guys with about 3-5 years of experience. Around here (Ohio) alot of instructors take the new recruits in the can and all they can really do is look at the fire and say "neat". I don't schedule it for anything other than my advanced classes. The experienced guys will actually be thinking about what they see and might actually apply it in real life. We are required to give a 2 hour lecture first and usually have 2 burn officers inside.

I've been in lots of simulators, 3 different cans but lots and lots of times, its fun to get warm, but it wouldn't break my heart if the can went away.

If its free, go get in there. If you have to pay for it yourself, go take another class.

And just to be realistic, its really only a Rollover simulator.

Cheers,
Scott

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Scott,

That's an interesting viewpoint. I can appreciate what you are suggesting but I am not sure if I agree.

alot of instructors take the new recruits in the can and all they can really do is look at the fire and say "neat"

I believe that you CAN take recruits in the 'can' and demonstrate some useful visual representations close up - 1) how a fire grows; 2) how a fire develops; 3) How a fire behaves, under variable venting parameters; 4) how a backdraft occurs.

You can also use it to practise nozzle techniques - 1)how the thermal layer can be kept high whilst pulsing fog droplets to maintain visibility but knock fire out of the overhead; 2) how a straight stream directed into the overhead can cause excessive steam; (ie comparing some correct methods with some incorrect methods of applying water). These are all important teaching aids for the rookie firefighter.

And just to be realistic, its really only a Rollover simulator

That all depends on how the 'can' is a) designed; and 2) used. You can demonstrate 'flashover like effects' as well as 'rollover' and 'backdraft' effects. The 'can' can also be used for teaching safe compartment entry techniques and also how to advance a nozzle into an under-ventilated fire situation.

These evolutions can take anything from 2 days to 2 weeks to run safely and effectively.

[jfTL41]

I wrote what I wrote. That is what we teach because that is how we operate.

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Originally posted by jfTL41
I wrote what I wrote. That is what we teach because that is how we operate.

That's quite acceptable I appreciate your point. It was never my intention to 'correct' your words but rather, offer my own view based on that statement. You have to train in the way your firefighters operate - golden rule

[jfTL41]

10-4

[PFD109NFD107]

Originally posted by PaulGRIMWOOD

I believe that you CAN take recruits in the 'can' and demonstrate some useful visual representations close up - 1) how a fire grows; 2) how a fire develops; 3) How a fire behaves, under variable venting parameters; 4) how a backdraft occurs.

You can also use it to practise nozzle techniques

I agree with Paul on this one. It may seem very basic and mundane but I think this gives the recruits an excellent opportunity to see the animal grow from its incipiant stage to where in it going good. It gives them the perspective of how fast it grows and how the smoke and heat will go up and mushroom out.

[shenry32]

Paul, I agree with you about all the great uses that you use the can for. I just wasn't really thinking in that manner because I do those things in our burn building. I think we might be a bit spoiled with the huge multi (6) story burn building we use that includes a good size high intensity burn room. We have also just completed a nice new, but only 2 floor, burn building. It will be nice having the new one, haven't used it yet, I have a recruit class starting in late March.
Anyway, depending on the facilities that are availiable to you the 'cans' can be great, but for me, they are easily duplicated elsewhere on site.
The Swede System Can that we have is getting old anyway, it has burnt/rusted through in a few spots and doesn't seal up as well as the Ohio Fire Academy models that I use sometimes.

Scott

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Originally posted by shenry32
The Swede System Can that we have is getting old anyway, it has burnt/rusted through in a few spots and doesn't seal up as well as the Ohio Fire Academy models that I use sometimes.

Scott, I really appreciate your points and recognise the luxury in possessing such ideal training facilities that you so rightly point out, are only available to the few. That's why the 'can' flashover simulators are ideal for locating near fire stations located someway from a training facility such as yours.

I am very interested in the construction details between the two 'cans' that might lead to such deterioration. Having said that, they all present points of structural failure after many hundreds of burns anyway.

If you think there are issues in the construction between the two types that might affect the life of such simulators please e-mail me your views.

Much appreciated .... Fire4242@aol.com