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Thread: Pierce (Appleton) vs Pierce (Bradenton / Contender)

  1. #26
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    Hmmmmmmmmmmm smells like a fish .......... sounds like a fish ......could it be a ________________ ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  2. #27
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    ..could it be a ________________ ?
    Could it be a what?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

  3. #28
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    Default Sound?

    He who shall remain nuetral, independant and objective says:

    While I do know what a fish "looks like", "smells like"....could someone please tell me what a fish sounds like?????

    Ok....maybe its splish splash...or something.....??????

    BUT, a fish is always humble, yet fiesty when hooked.....

    Other than that, as they say in the movies: All names have been changed to protect the innocent.

    Good Luck and Stay Safe!

    GUY

    PS- Clarity of "association" is forthright.

  4. #29
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    welcome back .............er I think ........LOL
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Sound?

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    He who shall remain nuetral, independant and objective says:

    While I do know what a fish "looks like", "smells like"....could someone please tell me what a fish sounds like?????

    Ok....maybe its splish splash...or something.....??????

    Good Luck and good fishing!

    GUY

    PS- Clarity of "association" is forthright.
    With large fish, it can be the thumping noise when they are clubbed

  6. #31
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    Default So FireFish, er I mean Fyrtruckguy

    whose "program" truck would you choose if you were a vollie dept running say 50 max fires a year?

  7. #32
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    Default Now here my friend is a pointed question!

    Farley,

    Now here my friend is a very pointed question! I appreciate your confidence in asking my opinion in such a direct manner, but I must suggest you try www.askjeeves.com for a “direct” answer.

    I say this only from the perspective that I thoroughly enjoy the opportunity to interface with firefighters from around the world in openly discussing ideas, constructively challenging one another on products and components, and being a part of the candid fhforums. For that reason, I would jeopardize that opportunity to participate, by offering a slanted view with “association” as I have clearly indicated that I have. In addition to the desire to remain neutral, honest and forthright, I was threatened by a manufacturer that felt my views were slanderous and inaccurate, with litigation and legal ramifications. Although that manufacturer will remain nameless, without exception, I would lend that all my posts are pointed, honest and backed with statistical data that support the claims. Regardless of data or statistics, I would lend that this forum is a "thinking pot" of information and thoughts that allows to to gleen data that is beneficial only inthe eyes of the reader, not gosphel or the bible. Any person who would buy solely from the information posted in an open forum, would need to re-evaluate their purchasing process. Sooooooo, I would rather lend this to you on your direct question that may allow you to answer it yourself.

    Did you possibly look at the question from this perspective during your potential purchase process?:

    Did you create a prioritized “Mission and Vision” list of the vehicle that was statistically established before you started the project? Can the manufacturer meet all the requirements of the, up front, Mission and Goal list?

    Did you create a prioritized “Required Component” list of the vehicle that was statistically established before you started the project? Can the manufacturer meet all the requirements of the, up front, Required Component list?

    Did you evaluate the following during the nut and bolt process of the process?

    The Company- Does the company have the financial strength to support me for the long term? (not what you think, feel, or heard from Joe Blow but statistical and printed financial documents. DO NOT accept that it is “private” information in any case. If a privately held company is doing well and is financially healthy, they will share the information if they seriously want your business!) Does the Company have the depth of TRUE engineering capabilities to ensure sound designs? Does the Company have design flexibility even though this is a program unit? Does the Company have capabilities and a product portfolio beyond just the project at hand (for future plans and establishing an on going relationship for future purchases to support me for all my apparatus needs)? Does the Company have warranty support systems internally and externally? Does the Company have a dealer distribution system for local coordination and long term support including a sound performance record with its customers? AND MUCH MORE!

    The Dealer / Distributor- Does the Dealer have the TRUE depth of knowledge required to design and specify detailed components and know the intimacies of all of these components (and I mean finite and in depth experience, not just knowing that a pumper has a pump and a ladder truck has a ladder!)? Was the responsiveness of the Dealer (if he/she does not react on a new purchase, they will never react on a warranty claim!) sufficient? Did the dealer have the ability to “suggest” and be open-minded making suggestions for “consideration” (and no I did not say “dictate”)? Did the dealer have ability of the dealer to listen verses tell you what they do, verses listening to what you need? Does the dealer TRULY have a sufficient Service Facility and did you go look at it? Can the dealer provide aftermarket features that the manufacturer may not necessarily offer in a program truck (i.e.: tool mounting, generators, hydraulic systems, loose equipment, etc)? Has clean, accurate and timely data furnished every time it was requested, including engineering, specs, literature, etc. or did you have to wait and repeatedly revise the information? Is there a support system beyond the sales person themselves (every one gets “busy” and sick one in a while, but your truck cannot wait)? Does the dealer have the inventory of parts, tools, equipment, personnel and requirements to support you long term? Is the dealer willing to make you his #1 priority? SERVICE-SERVICE-SERVICE! It is a REQUIREMENT, not and option. AND MUCH MORE!

    The Product- Does the Product meet ALL requirements of my “Mission and Vision List”? Does the Product meet ALL items on my “Required Components” list? Does the Product have a significant and “outstanding” warranty (parts and labor availability) support system in place to take care of me after the purchase or separates them from the competition? Is there “statistical” data to support the manufacturer claim of the Product being soundly built? Are there limitations and/or conditional terms in the warranty (read the damn fine print, it does matter)? Does the Product meet the minimal data I published in my bidding specification without exception? Did I write an OPEN spec to get a wide enough range of prices, without restricting bidders and writing a proprietary specification that only one manufacturer will meet for the Product? Was the manufacturers bid thorough and complete with supporting data, if there were clarifications and exceptions for the Product? Did I call other users of the exact Product and ask pointed questions on performance (both vehicle and dealership performance) and warranty support? Have I looked at a model and design exactly to what I am buying? In this case, a program unit, verses showing me a “custom” truck and selling me a program truck? Did I NOT make a decision as to the brand truck I was buying, before I went to bid (otherwise clouding my options and alternatives)? Did I get the best price from the best overall company, product and dealer? AND MUCH MORE!

    Good Luck and Stay Safe,

    GUY
    Ex-Worker likes this.

  8. #33
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    Default kinda curious

    What a contender custom pumper, with full depth/full height compartments both sides cost with biggest available generator and automatic a/b foam system?

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    We looked at a Contender body on a commercial M2 Chassis last weekend. I was told that the body is the same as what would be on a Custom chassis if so ordered. (same body either way.) It was stripped, no options but was a reasonably functional truck. Hi-sides on drivers, low on passenger with large full depth rear compartments with shallow depth on the hi-sides.

    I was curious on the compartment support sub-frame and that the body was painted even underneath and to the back. I would wonder who in the great white north has had one of these with the road salt etc for a while. Any electrolysis or corrosion happening?

    I have seen a E-One Tradition series and it seemed like a direct competitor to it, but I think Pierce has more options available. (generators, foam systems and tanks upto 1500 gallons per their website.)

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    Default contender bradenton nitemare

    in 2002 youngstown ohio fd received twin custom contenders from bradenton florida that appropriately were florida citrus---lemons to be precise. they were poorly assembled by persons who had no previous fire truck building experience under supervision that similarly had no previous experience but were essentially oshkosh people who had been there at that location fabricating other non-fire vehicles or worse right off the street at a cheap wage that didnt inspire their best effort. to this day the men who use these contenders hate them and call them derogatory names not fit to be repeated here . the chief wrote a scathing letter of complaint to pierce appleton outlining in detail a plethora of breakdowns and failures that ensued. pierce offered to extend the warranty. also the new rep has offered new rigs in the ladder configuration both platform and quint for considerably less maybe hundreds of thousands below fair market value to bring the department back on board but so far nothing. sutphen is in line for a quint and it is not known who will get an order for regular pumpers at some future time.
    Last edited by apparatusfan; 09-14-2005 at 01:58 AM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokey240
    Yes, Pierce and Seagrave have custom trucks, but wow, the price is crazy.

    Chris
    Spoken like a true salesman!

    No, I wouldn't say that about their prices. Seagrave and Pierce are usually in the middle of the pack when we solicit bids for our apparatus.

    I love it how salesmen come on these apparatus threads and bash others' products while pushing their own even if the thread has nothing to do with their rigs.

    Back on topic, Pierce actually came in low bid on one order, but we couldn't go with them because they bid the Contender pumper. Since the Contender is not fully customizeable they couldn't exactly meet our spec.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Default Oh wow

    It figures that only the factory people from Firemaster would say there trucks are good. There are a few of them around me and they are worse than a Toyne!! Firemaster puts together trucks worse than anything I have ever seen. They are cheap, low quality and just all around horrible trucks. Then again you get what you pay for.

    As for the Pierce Contender, I would reccomend taking a look at the E-One Tradition Series. Everyone knows I am an E-One fan, but they do offer much more with the Tradition trucks. You can get them "Bare Bones" like the Contender, but most opt to get the ones with rubrail and tread plate step packages. Just my 2 cents!

  13. #38
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    We are in the process of specing out a light rescue on a 550 chassis.

    The price on Appleton built (Encore) over the Contender is about $20,000.
    FTM - PTB

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    Got em both and been to both. The Custom Pierce, IMO is a much better product but I guess you get what you pay for. I love our Custom Pierce chassis but for a basic firefighting engine, the contender is a good vehicle. Compartment space and frills are not it's strong suit though. Of course we only have 1 contender and it has had some mechanical difficulties and a bunch of nuisance problems. If you're gonna get an engine, spend the money and get a custom. It's gonna be used for awhile and it's really an investment in community safety. Do it right or don't do it at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    NICEties of the Contender that I see in the published data:

    ¼ turn ball style bleeders and drains IPO of push pull style

    Nice? Thoese things SUCK!. We have them on our two newest rigs and will NEVER spec them again. Ill take push/pull thanks.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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    Quote Originally Posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    PS- To Dave1983- NEVER SAY NEVER ABOUT ANY BUILDER GOING OUT OF BUSINESS! Many said that about ALF back in their hay-days of the 60’ 70’s and 80’s when they were #1 also…At that time ALF seemed almost invincible and was merely “taking orders”…I firmly feel that ANYONE can go out of business with the correct miss-management or managers that do not fully understand the fire truck business as a whole!

    Ummm, where did I say builders NEVER go out of business? Try re-reading the post. Pay particular attention to the part about our FMC. I know all about builders going out of business.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
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    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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    I had some questions about the Contender build quality, fit, and finish.

    We looked at a light rescue similar to what we are buying and the quality was the same as our 100% custom Pierce heavy rescue body. I am sold...
    FTM - PTB

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    We had our representative price up both a Saber pumper "Appleton" build and also "Bradenton" built. There was about a $25,000.00 to $30,000.00 difference. The best way to sum the two up is that the Appleton Saber pumper has an unlimited options list, where the Contender has a limit. All of the options in the Contender are "pre-engineered", thus saving considerable costs. If you took the Contender mud flaps and logos off the vehicle, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. We looked at both. Fit and finish seemed to be pretty identical. We not only looked at a demo unit but also two other FD's in our area that had Custom Contenders. Your decision should be based on both what your budget is and what you are trying to build. Oh, by the way, we're buying a Contender and loading it up with much needed equipment.

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    Content deleted by author.
    Last edited by Firefighter807; 07-08-2009 at 07:06 PM.

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    The Custom Contender also saves money by severly limiting your drivetrain to a low powered medium block engine, usually 330 hp. That's why you don't usually see a Custom Contender with a pump bigger than 1250 gpm and certainly aren't able to get a 1750 or bigger pump.

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    Wrong.

    You can get a 400, I think it is the C9, but I am not sure.
    FTM - PTB

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    I didn't say you couldn't get a 400 hp - I said you usually don't see them with 400 hp. And, the 400 hp that is available is still a medium block that has to be wound up real tight to get 400 hp out of it, as compared to a big block that makes 400 hp with ease.

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    Yeah but you see a lot of the 400 HP mouses being sold, so they must not be doing too bad.

    C9: 400 HP, 1050 ft. lbs.
    FTM - PTB

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    The fit and finish should look the same between a Saber and a custom Contender. Custom Contender chassis are built in Appleton. Most are then shipped to Florida for the body. Commercial Contenders are almost all built in Florida.

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    Content deleted by author.
    Last edited by Firefighter807; 07-08-2009 at 07:05 PM.

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