View Poll Results: Straight Stick Rear Mount Quint VS Midmount Tower Quint

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  • Straight Stick Rear Mount Quint

    12 57.14%
  • Midmount Tower Quint

    9 42.86%
  1. #1
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    Question Midmount Tower Quint VS Straight Stick Rear Mount Quint?

    Which is better over all for mainly truck work and also which one will have more compartment space for equipment? I know there are alot of factors and options but in general which is better??
    Last edited by Engine75; 01-09-2005 at 02:00 AM.

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    Rear mounts generally have compartment space, but they also have a higher over all travel hieght then the mid-mount. That may or may not be a consideration for the area you respond in and provide mutual aid in. As for the ladder vs the bucket. I think the bucket is more convenient for rescues. How about a rear mount aeriel platform?

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    Try doing a search. This has been discussed numerous times on here....
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    All depends on how your department operates and the types of buildings in your area. For mine, its a rear mount 75' straight stick. Why? Shorter wheelbase for our apartment complexes and trailer parks and more compartment space as our quint functions as an engine, truck, ALS first response, high angle rescue and extrication unit.

    However, I like tillers best

    Dave
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    What is this ladder being used for, what types of buildings is it going to serve?
    For the vast majority of FD's the straight aerial ladder will be more than addiquate. A rear mount will increase your storage capability, m/m tls have very little storage inless you go with hgh side compts, which all but eliminate your street level scrub area and increase te area needed to set the bucket down to the street.
    The rescue arguement is kind of bogus, yes it may be nicer to have a civilian step into the bucket and ride down, but if they have the time to wait for the tower ladder to be set up and raised to them, they probably aren't in any danger anyway, aerials set up in less than half the time, and time is of the essence for a "rescue."
    If cost is a consideration Tower ladders are running in the $700k-$1million range while you can get a great aerial for $400-$600k range depending on whistles and bells.
    Also the what is the bucket being used for, is it for the big one, used defensively? If so how many neighboring depts operate TL's? use theirs.

  6. #6
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    Question What??........................

    Originally posted by jfTL41
    aerials set up in less than half the time, and time is of the essence for a "rescue."

    I readily agree that time is of the essence, But, Towers take longer to set up? Why? Every Tower or Straight Stick that I've ever seen, sets up the same way. If a specific unit takes longer to set up, it's a crew training problem, usually. Certainly NOT the Truck itself. Our 105' Seagrave Tower Ladder sets up just as fast as our neighbor's 110 Straight Stick. Seagrave says the only difference is the Bucket, otherwise the two are the same. Mine is at www.gdvfd18.com (Tower 18) and our neighbors is at www.bowievfd.org (Truck 19) Guarantee you one thing, after owning a Tower Ladder, we'll never go for a regular stick. BTW, I didn't vote in the poll. We've never had a quint, and never will. I prefer a Midmount over a Rearmount, and a Tower over an Aerial. As far as the "Quint" stuff, You want an engine, buy an engine. You want a truck, buy a truck. Don't try to do both with one piece.
    Last edited by hwoods; 01-10-2005 at 04:44 PM.
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    As far as the "Quint" stuff, You want an engine, buy an engine. You want a truck, buy a truck. Don't try to do both with one piece.
    Here we go again

    Dave
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    The reason the 110' aerial sets up in roughly the same amount of time as your rear mount TL is that they have similar jacking systems. These rigs have 4 out and down jacks. Aerials over 100' and 100' aerials with >500lb tips are required to have four out and down jacks. 100' Aerials with tip loads of 500lbs are only required to have two out and down and two down jacks. 75' Aerials and 100' aerials with 250lbs tip only need the two out and down jacks behind the rear axle. Some 75' aerials get built on 100' cookie cutter chassis (w/ Tandems) and get the 4 jack system usually with 2 down and two out and down.

    The aerial mentioned is a 75' model which would set up faster than a tower ladder.

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    Is there really that many people out there who work on both enough to give you an informed opinion on a comparison of each one?
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  10. #10
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    Default Midmount Tower vs RM Stick

    Firstly, in my opinion jfTL41 is right on the mark with posts. I’ll repost the answer I gave to the very same question on this thread a few months ago with some minor editing.

    Here’s it goes, my opinion on Tower ladders/Elevating platforms vs straight aerials (sticks).

    I’m going to utilize an aerial with a 500 lb tip load (in any position wet or dry) in my comparison. I personally believe the super heavy-duty aerial models (750 to 1000 pound tip load ratings) to be a bit excessive and totally eliminate many of the advantages of the aerial (straight stick). The super-heavy-duty aerials require the same massive octopus like jacking systems that a platform requires minus the safety advantage of the bucket. Some MFG’s platform jacking systems are less obtrusive (2 extending or radial jacks instead of 4 H’s).

    The Tower Ladder/Elevating Platform will also meet minimum NFPA requirements for tip load both wet and dry.

    First you need to answer some district/response area questions.

    What’s type of structures do I have in my district or response area and where do the greatest % of my fires occur:

    ·Singe occupancy or multiple occupancy residential (single family- ranches, cape cods, high ranches, split levels etc. -- 2-1/2 ‘s and 3’s -- Queen Ann’s, Victorians or multi family garden apartments? What’s the set back of these structures?

    ·Multiple story/family residential --- apartment buildings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 floors above ground level.

    ·Multiple use occupancies first floor commercials (store-fronts with apartments above).

    ·Multistory -- office buildings, light or heavy industrial buildings and/or storage mfg facilities.

    What type of setting is my response area? These are my personal definitions.

    ·Urban – very densely populated, narrow congested streets with cars parked on both sides. Structures have short setbacks from the street and are built abutting each other or with narrow alleyways between. May or may not have low to moderate height tree’s and/or overhead utilities. Retail, commercial and industrial structures are found in close proximity to residential up to and including abutting or above each other. Made up of multiple story/occupancy buildings up to and including High-Rises.

    ·Urban/Suburban – densely populated found mostly in the North East/MidAtlantic and Midwest (older suburbs built in close proximity to older cites). Roads are narrow laned congested (cars parked on both sides of streets) lined with trees and power poles. Structures have relatively short setbacks (15’-30’) from the street. Retail, commercial and industrial structures are found in close proximity to residential, usually not abutting each other. High quantity of strip stores (tax payers) many with apartments above especially in downtown areas. May have multiple story/occupancy buildings up to and including High-Rises. Many single-family structures now illegally converted to multiple occupancies without the required building-safety upgrades (cellar/basement apartments).


    ·Suburban – moderately to lightly populated. Usually wider streets with larger/longer driveways that usually alleviates the issue of on-street parking. May have buried utility lines/cable or may be installed in rear yards. Structures have moderate to high set backs from the roadway 30’ +. Retail, commercial and industrial structures are usually isolated away from residential areas in shopping malls, office/industrial parks. Major roadways are dotted with strip stores usually without apartments above.

    ·Rural -- out there in the sticks, lots of room. May have quite a bit of unpaved roads/driveways that limit access to residential structures. You usually have to drive to one of the settings listed above to go to work or shopping. There may be some very high hazard facilities both above and below-ground in the middle of farmland. Above and below-ground propane/petroleum/petrochemical, munitions, refining, Mfg or storage.

    Advantages - Tower Ladder/Elevating Platform:

    ·Safety, Safety, Safety – stable platform area to work off when performing OV and exterior overhaul operations. Especially valuable when performing roof ventilation on structures with peaked roofs i.e. Queen Ann’s, Garden Apartments, Truss, Gables – etc.

    ·Safety -- Its a lot easier (less fatiguing) to ride the saws, axes, roof hooks, haligans etc. up to the roof in the bucket as opposed to them being strapped on your shoulder and in your free hand and walked up the ladder. Especially when being done at low angles of elevation. BTW, if I had a choice between using an interior stairway of an adjoining structure or aerial (stick) to carry my tools to the roof, I’d choose the adjoining buildings interior stairway.

    ·Safety – Occupant removal especially when incapacitated. Self-explanatory.

    ·Safety – Ease of - and safe repositioning of device with FF’s still at tip and operating from bucket. (Should not be routinely done with aerials however, we all know there are times when you must make exceptions.)

    ·Portable master-stream usually 1000gpm or above that can be moved anywhere from ground level and up – left and right without interrupting the flow. Ability to operate master-stream appliance anywhere from the 8:00 to 10:00 O’clock positions with the platform elevation at or between the –10 to 70+ degree positions (depending upon mfg spec’s).

    Disadvantages - Tower Ladders/Elevating Platforms:

    ·Vehicle dimensions & footprint are usually much greater than that of an aerial (stick).

    ·May not be able to access many of the streets in your district/response area due to overall vehicle size.

    ·Requires higher level of chauffer training ie. Larger overall vehicle size, operational and tactical differences (when to enter and not enter the fire block, positioning of device, etc).

    ·May not be able to pass the tower ladders elevating superstructure and bucket between obstructions due to increased width and height ie. between utility/cable/telephone -- lines/poles, trees, narrowly spaced buildings etc.

    ·Increased number of extending jacks (usually two sets—4h’s) and greater jack spread even when shorted. May not be able to deploy jacks due to narrow roadways or parallel obstructions ie. Parked vehicles.

    ·Higher purchase cost -- somewhere between 100,000 to 200,000 or more depending upon spec’s and mfg.

    ·Higher maintenance costs due to greater complexity and size i.e. larger/heavier duty superstructure & driveline (engine, transmission, axles & brakes).

    ·Depending upon the mfg. The elevating platform may not have a continuous means of ingress and egress other than an emergency escape ladder. Not a big deal if your dept has both aerials and elevating platforms. When a FF makes entry into a window or onto a roof via an aerial or tower ladder a continuous means of egress must be supplied. The unit that placed the FF in the window or onto the roof should not be moved to or utilized at another location unless it has been confirmed that the FF has another safe accessible means of egress (another tower ladder/elevating platform, aerial, adjoining roof, etc).

    I’m not going to separately list the +’s and –‘s of the Aerial (straight stick) since most can be surmised from the tower ladder/elevating platform evaluation. For the most part I’d just be repeating myself with a few exceptions.

    Once again these are just my observations and opinions. I’m sure others on this forum will supply you with some valuable insight. I would suggest that you do a search for articles written by the experts --- Chief Bill Peters (retired JCFD), Lt Mike Wilbur (FDNY), Chief Harry Carter (retired NFD) and Chief Vincent Dunn (retied FDNY).

    Mike Wilbur has written quite a few articles on Aerials and Tower Ladders in recent issues of Firehouse Magazine, some can also be found on this web page as well.

    Good luck and Stay Safe.

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