1. #1
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    Question Quick FE Drill...

    Here is the door what do you do?

    FTM-PTB
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    Default wood or metal?

    I say try a K12 around the locks.

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    Not knowing the situation or what the rest of the building looks like the fastest method may be to find an alternate way in.

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    Talking

    K-12 around locks or torch. Can't see the hinged side so it could be easier going to the hinged side to make entry. If there are that many locks on it I bet there is at least a bar on the inside too! Maybe a pinch of C4 could help out here too! Ha Ha

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    the crew grabs the probie, backs up about twenty feet and....

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    Default ...

    Try before you pry?

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    Dynamite...

    Seriosuly, a door like this, it might be smarter to just take a quick look and find an easier entrance. If not, I would take our gasoline-oxygen cutting torch or the k-12 saw around the locks.
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    What about...

    KNOCK KNOCK
    "Who's there"

    "the Fire Department"
    "ooh, you had better come in and I'll put the kettle on"

    after all there was no mention in the scenario about an urgent need for any action - I don't see any sign of smoke around the door?
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

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    If we have to cut, and we have to cut this door, I think we'd probably grab the k-12 and cut like so:
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    Having wrestled a K12 quite often through doors like this, making anything but a straight line is a workout. I've never done it, but after seeing jaybird's cut line, I'd make a straight line cut about 6-12" in from the hinge side. That gives a small spot to open the door to the right of the cut and see what's going on or if there's a bar on the door for added security. Then the left side can just be pulled right off. Nothing to swing back and get jammed to block egress.

    Another thought in case there is a possiblity of a bar across the middle is to cut an angle from right above the top lock down to the middle of the right side. Flap open the top of the door and you should be able to reach in and remove the bar as well as either open the locks, or know where the 2nd cut can be made.

    Or even...With the possibility of 2 bars nowadays, make 2 cuts from top to bottom on each side, about 6" from the edge, then take a trusty maul or sledge and push the door inwards. The bars usually only hook into the door and then extend to the cinder blocks for the crosspiece.

    Anyway you cut it, a good preplan will always win. The way some businesses are, you could have a machine press blocking this door from the inside, and spend 10 minutes wasting time and metal blades.

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    First off nice picture.

    Second off, now I might be a little new to forciable entry, but in academy the taught us through the lock method by pulling cylinders. I know 3 cylinders might be a little much, and granted I have not done it in real life outside the academy's simulation, but if a K12 isn't available and smoke isn't pouring out of that door isn't yanking the locks with your K tools a little less destructive? I'm guess I am just a little surprised everyone has gone to grabbing the 'big guns' right away.

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    Obviosly try before you pry!

    Then I would run the shove tool down the left side of the door. We might have one or two dummy locks. If they're all real, teh quickest way, K12!
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    Just to clairify for those with questions....

    I didn't provide a senario but you could really look at this in two different ways.

    1. As some have already mentioned look for another entry point. Although that is a valid and possibly best course of action, it doesn't allow for much discussion.

    2. Or regardless of what the senario is, just imagine that you have to get on the other side of the door and damage isn't an issue.

    So if you believe that going to another door is the best course of action then state so...however also try to imagine there is a need to get through this specfic door and how you would accomplish it.

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    It apears this door is metal because the bottom appears rusted. It also looks to be an outward opening door. Not having sounded it I dont know if it is solid metal (doubtful) or hollow. If it is hollow I would look at cutting the hinge side and pulling the door out that way. Another option is to make a purchase point on the lock side and use the hydraulic spreaders to open up. Granted that any control of the door is pretty much lost when you have a combo tool in your hands.

    Another thought in case there is a possiblity of a bar across the middle is to cut an angle from right above the top lock down to the middle of the right side. Flap open the top of the door and you should be able to reach in and remove the bar as well as either open the locks, or know where the 2nd cut can be made.
    This is an interesting idea. Could you show me how you would do this? It may be that my coffee hasnt kicked in yet but I am having some trouble visualizing this.

    Great topic FFFred. I always love to learn more about the art of FE. Do you have your own ideas on how to accomplish entry?
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    FFRED, as I believe you are an FDNY member, I am not surprised that you found this while probably on inspection or a job...having worked for NYC*EMS in the early '90's in the projects of East New York/Brownsville (where security like this was not uncommon), my thought would be what other security devices are on the other side of that door?? My presumption is that this is a commercial occupancy so there are probably even more security measures in place to protect the owner's valuables.

    While it's obvious there are three cylinder type locks, there may be an across the door horizontal deadbolt (not visible from outside) and/or one of those security bars that clips in to the floor at an angle (prevents door from being forced inward..."push-in" robberies). Considering this, I would say that looking for an alternative means of entry would probably be the best means if rapid entry is needed. I know, I know...that's the boring answer...

    If I had to force this door (it could be the only way in or out),
    I would confer with the others who have said K-12...thru the lock forcible entry is gonna take a while here, especially if you are not proficient at it.

    Maybe let's add a little twist (and pressure) to the scenario..instead of just needing to force entry, let's say there's trapped FF's on the other side of that door & you need to get them out yesterday...ok, let's see what everyone thinks of now...hmmm...

    Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...

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    I agree with E40FDNYL35 & Lewiston2Capt. Outward opening door --- go for the hinges.

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    Edit: TJSNYS beat me to posting this. Bummer.

    Hmmm, what side are the hinges on, and what way does the door open?

    If the hinges are on the outside, and depending on how many hinges there are, why not just take the pins out and then go from there?

    I was trying to look at the door casing, and then looked at one here in my home. Don't most doors have a strip that goes acrossed the top of them on the side that the door opens away from? I couldn't see the little strip, thinking it was blocked by the door. Which would make the door open outwards. Make sense?

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    I guess Im suprised...but so far (unless I missed it) nobody is giving it a shot with driving the adz of the Halligan near the locks and forcing it conventionaly.
    My first attempt: drive the adz in just below the top lock and pry out ( door may be unlocked, and at least you'll get an idea if ALL the locks are locked and how tough there going to be). If nothing happens, I'd drive the Adz end BETWEEN the Jamb and door (not just into the jamb) and try and pop the top lock. If it works, slide(or drive) the adz down to the next lock, same thing, working top to bottem until all 3 locks are popped. If this proves it isnt going to work, I'd go for the hinges. If there are exposed pins(doubtful)I'd pull the pins,if not; then I'd cut them with the saw. If this cant be done for whatever reason, I'd try small inverted triangles in area of the locks and reach in to disengage the locks. Last resort...a big hole.
    I really dont think this door is as intimidating as some seem to think. Its gonna take some effort...but theres tougher doors out there.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 01-12-2005 at 01:04 PM.

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    Knox box for the keys to the doors of a building: $300

    Cost of keys for the knox box: $10

    The look on the keyholder's face when you have literally ripped the door from the hinges to gain access because he/she was too cheap to get a knox box: Priceless!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 01-12-2005 at 01:07 PM.
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    I'd try for the hinges first, can't see from the pic if they're exposed or not.

    Next step would be same as MattyJ, Halligan and sledge close to each lock, top first.

    Plan C would be a cutting torch. I think I would try one long cut from top to bottom on each side of the door to get the whole thing out of the way but with not much experience with a torch I don't know how long that would take.

    In a real situation I would definitely send one firefighter to look for a different, easier way in while we got to work on this.

    Good thread!
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    try the bumper of the police car, not only fun but imaginative

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    Find out how the first door got out of the frame that is closest to you and hire that guy to do it

    I would agree it looks outward opening judging by the striker plate on the frame at the middle lock which probably used to be a knob.

    While I'm waiting for the K12 I would try the traditional method of hammering the halligan in trying to pry it in hopes that they bolt is short on those locks and you can get them to pop out. If no quick success is at all evident (which I am really not expecting given the metal door in a metal frame surrounded by masonry construction) I would give a shot at the hinges and if nothing, the saw should be at your side running by then.

    I do have a potentially dumb question for you since there aren't very many of these doors in my area with a single lock (let alone three), is it possible to run the K12 saw blade between the frame and the door on the lock side in essence cutting off each lock bolt as you passed by it?

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    Assuming (we all know what that means) an urgent need to open this door, I would call the PD, and have the SWAT "Breecher" come to the scene. He/She has a shotgun with ""Avon"" rounds, and can get the door open (if there is no crossbar) in about 3 seconds (1 second per lock).

    Yes, I used to be in Law Enforcement. Avon rounds (as in "Avon Calling") are frangable rounds that break the lock out of the door, while breaking into powder. Done right, there is minimal risk to folks on the other side of the door. Fast, nosiy, but it gets these tough doors OPEN.

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    I didn't see the question about my response to cut at an angle so here it is. The blue cut might give a view in to see if there's a bar in the middle, but it won't help if there's one at the top. Granted if there's 3 locks, I'd bet the farm on there being at least 1 bar, but this should remove any doubt, in which case you'll be able to remove it and then make the 2nd cut at the hinge side.

    Odds are I'd go with the yellow cut. The bars won't be hooked into the door that close to the sides, no strength if the middle of the door were pulled from there. Flapping that 6-12" will give you a chance to flap the door to the left, or if there are bars, a view on the inside (or at least room to put your arm in if it's smoky) and remove them.

    I'd really rather have one of those Avon shotguns, but I'm sure there's a little more to it than just walking into WalMart. Then again, I do live in the People's Republic of Texas...
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