1. #26
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    If you have enough water on the truck or tanker, then you have to use what you have. Why waste foam on a hay bale(s) fire? Get a hay fork and pull them apart, and use water sparingly.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ullrichk
    Most livestock won't eat smoked hay anyway, so it's usually not a problem unless you have a large quantity of unburned hay that will get caught in the runoff.
    They don't like good BBQ? Maybe if there was a good sauce or rub for the hay?
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee
    If you have enough water on the truck or tanker, then you have to use what you have. Why waste foam on a hay bale(s) fire? Get a hay fork and pull them apart, and use water sparingly.
    Using plain ol cheap and abundant water. This is the normal and most commonly used method of fighting grass and hay fires, but I am going to tell you a little SECRET about vegetation that will possibly make you a better class A fire fighter.

    Most vegetation has a water defense system that prevents rain from washing away the nutrients in the leaves and trunks. They produce a waxy coating that is WATER PROOF. You can see it when rain forms little dew drops on the leaves. A bale of hay contains a lot of this waxy stuff and it prevents your water from soaking into the bale. So you have to apply Niagara falls to the hay and then come back in the middle of the night to stomp the fire out.

    Or you could use a little bit of surfactant (foam) that breaks this waxy coating on the leaves and uses 60 times LESS water that you would have to transport and pump for longer periods of time. But if you have the time, manpower and equipment to haul lots of water it would be foolish to spend the extra money on the foam because itís a lot cheaper to buy the diesel and make 60 more trips, besides most fire fighters donít have anything better to do than to hang around the station and wash the pretty fire trucks, so they might as well be out there earning their high wages and wasting water while polluting the skies with the pretty brown and gray smoke and getting a dose of asthma, lung disease, cancer and brain tumors while thereíre at it.

    Seriously, why not use a little foam and save the water for drinking. (and bathing).
    Mark Cummins

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    2 choices let them burn, or pull them apart and extinguish using water. I don't know about other depts but mine doesn't have the budget to waste valuable foam on a stupid hay bale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighterbeau
    2 choices let them burn, or pull them apart and extinguish using water. I don't know about other depts but mine doesn't have the budget to waste valuable foam on a stupid hay bale.

    My thoughts exactly!

    Stupid hay bale!
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    I wish my dept. had the money to go around applying foam to everything, even when it is appears unnesessary. BTW, from what I have read, fish really don't like either.
    YGBSM!
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    I wish my dept. had the money to go around applying foam to everything, even when it is appears unnesessary. BTW, from what I have read, fish really don't like either.


    Info only:


    March 8, 2002 Marin County, CA Firefighting Foam Spill Kills Fish
    A spill of firefighting foam in Larsen Creek, a Marin County salmon stream, killed at least 20 fish. Firefighters were putting down a fire in a school outbuilding in San Geronimo when a burst valve on a fire truck spilled 20 liters of concentrated Silv-Ex, a mixture of sodium and ammonium salts, water, alcohol and butyl carbinol. The mixture splashed into a drain that flows directly into the creek and formed large quantities of foam as far as 3 km downstream
    Chief
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  8. #33
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    And that is exactly why I totally ignore the EPA, OSHA, etc. As a Chief Officer, It's my ball game, and I'll play it my way. I've sent several representatives of Government agencies on their way, after they started flapping their jaws about how we were doing our job. I have yet to hear from them again, and, judging from conversations with their bosses, I never will, unless I request them to show up at an incident.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    Info only:


    Firefighters were putting down a fire in a school outbuilding in San Geronimo ------ The mixture splashed into a drain that flows directly into the creek and formed large quantities of foam as far as 3 km downstream
    Good grief man, do you have any idea what toxic compounds are in the water after the fire fighters flush it through a burning building? Do you suppose that might have had a contribution to the death of the twenty fish?

    This stuff is in the run-off....... it kills people. A little soap won't hurt you.
    VOCs (C2-C7) 7-27
    Aldehydes 0.6-5.4
    Formaldehyde 0.1-0.7
    Acrolein 0.02-0.1
    Propionaldehyde 0.1-0.3
    Butryaldehyde 0.01-1.7
    Acetaldehyde 0.03-0.6
    Furfural 0.2-1.6 1.6
    Substituted Furans 0.15-1.7
    Benzene 0.6-4.0
    Alkyl Benzenes 1-6
    Toluene 0.15-1.0
    Acetic Acid 1.8-2.4
    Formic Acid 0.06-0.08
    Nitrogen Oxides (NO,NO2) 0.2-0.9
    Sulfur Dioxide 0.16-0.24
    Methyl chloride 0.01-0.04
    Napthalene 0.24-1.6
    Substituted Napthalenes 0.3-2.1
    Oxygenated Monoaromatics 1 - 7
    Guaiacol (and denvatives) 0.4-1.6
    Phenol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8
    Syringol (and derivatives) 0.7-2.7
    Catechol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8
    Mark Cummins

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    Good grief man, go to Ansul's web site and check out what they have to say about foam and the enviroment!

    https://www.ansul.com/AnsulGetDoc.asp?FileID=8100

    Or this one:

    https://www.ansul.com/AnsulGetDoc.asp?FileID=8733
    Chief
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    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

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    Oh, BTW..............on an MSDS from a leading Foam manufacturer. Any spill that is over one drum requires a Hazmat response.

    See it works both ways!

    We understand your wish for us to all use foam, but.................all of us can't afford foam for putting out 4 bales of hay! Please don't look down on us and proclaim how we "might as well be out there earning their high wages and wasting water while polluting the skies with the pretty brown and gray smoke and getting a dose of asthma, lung disease, cancer and brain tumors while thereíre at it."


    I really think your message would be a little better received if you would not be so high and mighty on your views.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

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    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    Oh,
    I really think your message would be a little better received if you would not be so high and mighty on your views.
    Your right, I appolodize if my post souded high and mighty. I just get a little frustrated when I see smoke and pollution that could be delt with except for financial limitations.

    BTW... the Ansul information sheets you posted were refering to the AFFF class B foaming agents I refered to earlier. Most chemical suppliers no longer produce the toxic formula. And that type of AFFF is way different than the environmentally friendly class A/B products being produced now.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Mark Cummins

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    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    We understand your wish for us to all use foam, but.................all of us can't afford foam for putting out 4 bales of hay! Please don't look down on us and proclaim how we "might as well be out there earning their high wages and wasting water while polluting the skies with the pretty brown and gray smoke and getting a dose of asthma, lung disease, cancer and brain tumors while thereíre at it."


    I really think your message would be a little better received if you would not be so high and mighty on your views.
    That just about sums it up.
    YGBSM!
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    If all you have is a hammer, then your problems start to look like nails.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    That just about sums it up.
    If I may add, "Me Too"

    You really have to stop and ponder this old Fire Chief's view on Smoke, Toxics both real (a few) and Imagined (a lot), Foam, Water, and the Enviornment.


    I Could Care Less !

    Have a nice day.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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    My point was, it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to put $75 of foam along with $1000 of Fire Department time on a hay bale that is worth $35. My point is you need to see the potential of property being saved when coupled with the cost of saving it....

    Otherwise we'd be expending full resources putting out a fire in a 50-year old abandon chicken coop in the middle of no where.

    Regarding the toxic issues of a grass fire....I understand your concern. Once again though, we need to be careful otherwise we'll be turning everyone who has a wood burning fireplace into a hazordous materials site.

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    We helped a department in an adjoining county with a round bale fire. The barn held over 400 bales of hay. The owner saw smoke coming from the barn and he started moving the hay out of the barn. When the bales got air they blazed up and he called the fire department. We watched one of the departments empty a truck load of water on 1 bale and it still blazed up as soon as they stopped applying water. The owner moved the hay into an open field and wanted to let it burn, but then he decided embers might spread to the hay still in the barn. He used his tractors to to scatter the hay and then we applied 1% class a foam solution to the hay. We extinguished about 75 bales in 1 hours time and did not have to return to the site. He still had to dispose of the damaged hay, but he did not have to worry about the remaing 325 bales. Also used less than 3000 gallons of water.

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    Smile Hay Bale fires around RV's, Motor Homes, Travel Trailers

    I'm doing research for me, a new fulltimer in a Travel Trailer. I've heard about Hay Bales under our rigs for winter insulation. I put mine initally to transport, in thick black contrator plastic bags. Was told not to keep them under the rig, as they could heat up quicker in the sun in the black plastic and have a moisture problem from rain water, etc and could cause a fire.

    Any experience with this? I did unpack them today - messy but hope it will keep me and the critters warm. Thanks for any replys.

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    My suggestions are if there are no other exposure in danger to fire spread let it burn, Foam is another good solution but keep in mind that it's expensive if you're fighting 2,000 bales and you have to have a pretty good water supply in motion. I as an Assistant Chief would also find an alternative means of getting a backhoe or trackhoe
    to pull it apart. Does your local municipality-road department ect have access to such equipment? Thanks, Dave Chief 1811.

  19. #44
    firefighter7160
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    Default Let It Burn

    Ben there done that.. let it burn.. clear the area around the fire and let it burnout. our brake it up and let it burn. Theres bigger things to do.

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