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  1. #21
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    Default Does anyone care?

    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    All this is true, but how many controlled burns does the USFS do a year?
    Good question, and how many people suffer from their actions?
    I'm not trying to cause trouble by pointing out this information, just concerned about the medical reports of epidemic astha and such, and wondering who is in control of any of this? And does anyone care?
    Mark Cummins


  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    I will say this, if we do need to put out a hay fire, we'll be using the piercing nozzle with foam! In most of our cases the hay is in a remote location and confined to 4-8 bales of hay.

    Extinguishment is not always the best option for us.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

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  3. #23
    Forum Member spearsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfire3
    ......OSHA says we must use engineering controls including wetting agents and foam to protect the workers at hazardous waste incedents.
    Do you mean to tell me that we should consider a grass fire a Hazardous Waste Incident?

    Please note that I DO NOT have a problem using AFFF or trying to put them out with just plain ole water, or do like we tend to do, let them burn in isolation. I do have to ask one question. Bear with me.

    Then there is a problem with the contaminated water run-off when trying to extinguish the fire without foam. So the price of the foam may be small compared to the environmental....
    CFire, You are talking about protecting the environment, runoff, pollution, etc., and the first photo you show (CAFS Bale) is piling up the foam on the ground. Can you tell me what kind of well you pump this stuff out of the ground? I'm sure that you must pump it straight out of the ground and don't manufacture it. You wouldn't be trying to tell me that if I choose to fight it with plain water it is more dangerous to the environment than a synthetic material, would you? When I looked at your first picture, all I could think about was the next rainfall and the nearest creek. Or do you have a specialized contractor clean up the area (considering it is a Hazardous Waste Incident) and have it sent to a Hazardous Waste Facility?

    In my simple mind, I cannot believe that using water is more dangerous to the environment than a synthetic product. If I was trying to determine which I think would be worse,I'd rather let the natural vegatation burn off than to put such on the ground.

    Again guys, I don't find issue with attacking with AFFF. You never know, our next bale fire just might include a nozgle and bucket. I am just having a hard time buying off on the "saving the environment" argument.
    Last edited by spearsm; 10-17-2005 at 10:38 PM.
    YGBSM!
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  4. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    Do you mean to tell me that we should consider a grass fire a Hazardous Waste Incident?

    Please note that I DO NOT have a problem using AFFF or trying to put them out with just plain ole water, or do like we tend to do, let them burn in isolation. I do have to ask one question. Bear with me.



    CFire, You are talking about protecting the environment, runoff, pollution, etc., and the first photo you show (CAFS Bale) is piling up the foam on the ground. Can you tell me what kind of well you pump this stuff out of the ground? I'm sure that you must pump it straight out of the ground and don't manufacture it. You wouldn't be trying to tell me that if I choose to fight it with plain water it is more dangerous to the environment than a synthetic material, would you? When I looked at your first picture, all I could think about was the next rainfall and the nearest creek. Or do you have a specialized contractor clean up the area (considering it is a Hazardous Waste Incident) and have it sent to a Hazardous Waste Facility?

    In my simple mind, I cannot believe that using water is more dangerous to the environment than a synthetic product. If I was trying to determine which I think would be worse,I'd rather let the natural vegatation burn off than to put such on the ground.

    Again guys, I don't find issue with attacking with AFFF. You never know, our next bale fire just might include a nozgle and bucket. I am just having a hard time buying off on the "saving the environment" argument.

    True Dat.....Bro.....
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    Do you mean to tell me that we should consider a grass fire a Hazardous Waste Incident?

    Please note that I DO NOT have a problem using AFFF or trying to put them out with just plain ole water, or do like we tend to do, let them burn in isolation. I am just having a hard time buying off on the "saving the environment" argument.

    Yep! I agree that it sounds pretty unusual to think of a grass fire or a bunch of 2,000 pound bales of burning hay as being a hazardous waste incident, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, the Environmental Protection Agency spent a whole lot of our tax money to research whatís in wood smoke. The list below is the TOXIC compounds in the SMOKE from wood, and that would include the smoke from grass and hay. A spill of any one or a combination of any of these compounds would call for a Hazmat response so if any of these same compounds are released into the air the Federal Clean Air Act says thatís illegal. Smoke IS dangerous; shouldnít we be doing everything possible to stop it from hurting the sensitive receptors that will tell you it hurts when you canít breathe?

    As for the synthetic foams being a danger? They are not, unless you stick your head in the bucket and drown. The exception would be some of the AFFF foams you mentioned that you DO NOT have a problem using, the original formulas of AFFF contain methyl tertiary butyl either which must be cleaned up after use, I suggest you donít use AFFF unless you know which type you have. Most other foam formulas are very biodegradable, and environmentally friendly, even better than Dawn Dishwashing detergent. Synthetic Detergents are often recommended to be used as soil conditioners by horticulturists.

    Why use the CAFS? Because it can use 60 times LESS water to extinguish the hay fires and there is no TOXIC run-off or off-site emissions which is only one of the reasons for using it. It is definitely a pollution and hazard reduction application system which allows a fire department to charge for the cost of using, it if they so desired.

    This information was published in 1993 EPA Report, A Summary of the Emissions Characterization and Noncancer Respiratory Effects of Wood Smoke, EPA-453/R-93-036 It can be ordered from the EPA at (919)-541-5344.
    Chemical Composition of Wood Smoke
    Species g/kg wood

    Carbon Monoxide 80-370
    Methane 14-25
    VOCs (C2-C7) 7-27
    Aldehydes 0.6-5.4
    Formaldehyde 0.1-0.7
    Acrolein 0.02-0.1
    Propionaldehyde 0.1-0.3
    Butryaldehyde 0.01-1.7
    Acetaldehyde 0.03-0.6
    Furfural 0.2-1.6 1.6
    Substituted Furans 0.15-1.7
    Benzene 0.6-4.0
    Alkyl Benzenes 1-6
    Toluene 0.15-1.0
    Acetic Acid 1.8-2.4
    Formic Acid 0.06-0.08
    Nitrogen Oxides (NO,NO2) 0.2-0.9
    Sulfur Dioxide 0.16-0.24
    Methyl chloride 0.01-0.04
    Napthalene 0.24-1.6
    Substituted Napthalenes 0.3-2.1
    Oxygenated Monoaromatics 1 - 7
    Guaiacol (and denvatives) 0.4-1.6
    Phenol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8
    Syringol (and derivatives) 0.7-2.7
    Catechol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8
    Total Particle Mass 7-30
    Particulate Organic Carbon 2-20
    Oxygenated PAHs 0.15-1
    Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH)
    Fluorene 4x10-5 - 1.7x10-2
    Phenanthrene 2x10-5 - 3.4x10-2
    Anthracene 5x10-5 - 2.1x10-5
    Methylanthracenes 7xl0-5 - 8x10-5
    Fluoranthene 7xl0-4- 4.2xl0-2
    Pyrene 8x10-4 - 3.1x10-2
    Benzo(a)anthracene 4x10-4 - 2x10-3
    Chrysene 5x104- 1x10-2
    Benzofluoranthenes 6x10-4- 5x10-3
    Benzo(e)pyrene 2x104 - 4x10-3
    Benzo(a)pyrene 3x104- 5x10-3
    Perylene 5x10-5 - 3x10-3
    Ideno(1,2,3-cd)pyrene 2xl0-4- 1.3x10-2
    Benz(ghi)perylene 3x10-5- 1.lx10-2
    Coronene 8x10-4- 3x10-3
    Dibenzo(a,h)pyrene 3x104- lx10-3
    Retene 7x10-3 - 3x10-2
    Dibenz(a,h)anthracene 2x10-5 - 2xl0-3
    Trace Elements
    Na 3x10-3 - 1.8xl0-2
    Mg 2x10-4 - 3x10-3
    Al 1x10-4 - 2.4x10-2
    Si 3x10-4 - 3.1x10-2
    S 1x10-3 - 2.9x10-2
    Cl 7x10-4 - 2.1xl0-2
    K 3x10-3 - 8.6x10-2
    Ca 9xl0-4 - 1.8x10-2
    Ti 4x10-5 - 3x10-3
    V 2xl0-5 - 4x10-3
    Cr 2x10-5 - 3x10-3
    Mn 7xl0-5 - 4x10-3
    Fe 3x10-4 - 5x10-3
    Ni lxl0-6 - lx10-3
    Cu 2x10-4 - 9x10-4
    Zn 7xl0-4 - 8x10-3
    Br 7x10-5 - 9x10-4
    Pb lx10-4 - 3x10-3

    Particulate Elemental 0.3 - 5
    Carbon
    Normal alkanes (C24-C30) 1x10-3 - 6x10-3
    Cyclic di-and triterpenoids
    Dehydroabietic acid 0.01 - 0.05
    Isopimaric acid 0.02 - 0.10
    Lupenone 2x10-3 - 8x10-3
    Friedelin 4x10-6 - 2x10-5
    Chlorinated dioxins 1xl0-5 - 4x10-5
    Particulate Acidity . 7x10-3 - 7x10-2
    Mark Cummins

  6. #26
    Forum Member Jonnee's Avatar
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    If you have enough water on the truck or tanker, then you have to use what you have. Why waste foam on a hay bale(s) fire? Get a hay fork and pull them apart, and use water sparingly.

  7. #27
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ullrichk
    Most livestock won't eat smoked hay anyway, so it's usually not a problem unless you have a large quantity of unburned hay that will get caught in the runoff.
    They don't like good BBQ? Maybe if there was a good sauce or rub for the hay?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee
    If you have enough water on the truck or tanker, then you have to use what you have. Why waste foam on a hay bale(s) fire? Get a hay fork and pull them apart, and use water sparingly.
    Using plain ol cheap and abundant water. This is the normal and most commonly used method of fighting grass and hay fires, but I am going to tell you a little SECRET about vegetation that will possibly make you a better class A fire fighter.

    Most vegetation has a water defense system that prevents rain from washing away the nutrients in the leaves and trunks. They produce a waxy coating that is WATER PROOF. You can see it when rain forms little dew drops on the leaves. A bale of hay contains a lot of this waxy stuff and it prevents your water from soaking into the bale. So you have to apply Niagara falls to the hay and then come back in the middle of the night to stomp the fire out.

    Or you could use a little bit of surfactant (foam) that breaks this waxy coating on the leaves and uses 60 times LESS water that you would have to transport and pump for longer periods of time. But if you have the time, manpower and equipment to haul lots of water it would be foolish to spend the extra money on the foam because itís a lot cheaper to buy the diesel and make 60 more trips, besides most fire fighters donít have anything better to do than to hang around the station and wash the pretty fire trucks, so they might as well be out there earning their high wages and wasting water while polluting the skies with the pretty brown and gray smoke and getting a dose of asthma, lung disease, cancer and brain tumors while thereíre at it.

    Seriously, why not use a little foam and save the water for drinking. (and bathing).
    Mark Cummins

  9. #29
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    2 choices let them burn, or pull them apart and extinguish using water. I don't know about other depts but mine doesn't have the budget to waste valuable foam on a stupid hay bale.

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighterbeau
    2 choices let them burn, or pull them apart and extinguish using water. I don't know about other depts but mine doesn't have the budget to waste valuable foam on a stupid hay bale.

    My thoughts exactly!

    Stupid hay bale!
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
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    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  11. #31
    Forum Member spearsm's Avatar
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    I wish my dept. had the money to go around applying foam to everything, even when it is appears unnesessary. BTW, from what I have read, fish really don't like either.
    YGBSM!
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    If all you have is a hammer, then your problems start to look like nails.
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  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    I wish my dept. had the money to go around applying foam to everything, even when it is appears unnesessary. BTW, from what I have read, fish really don't like either.


    Info only:


    March 8, 2002 Marin County, CA Firefighting Foam Spill Kills Fish
    A spill of firefighting foam in Larsen Creek, a Marin County salmon stream, killed at least 20 fish. Firefighters were putting down a fire in a school outbuilding in San Geronimo when a burst valve on a fire truck spilled 20 liters of concentrated Silv-Ex, a mixture of sodium and ammonium salts, water, alcohol and butyl carbinol. The mixture splashed into a drain that flows directly into the creek and formed large quantities of foam as far as 3 km downstream
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
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    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  13. #33
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking Doo Doo Happens................

    And that is exactly why I totally ignore the EPA, OSHA, etc. As a Chief Officer, It's my ball game, and I'll play it my way. I've sent several representatives of Government agencies on their way, after they started flapping their jaws about how we were doing our job. I have yet to hear from them again, and, judging from conversations with their bosses, I never will, unless I request them to show up at an incident.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    Info only:


    Firefighters were putting down a fire in a school outbuilding in San Geronimo ------ The mixture splashed into a drain that flows directly into the creek and formed large quantities of foam as far as 3 km downstream
    Good grief man, do you have any idea what toxic compounds are in the water after the fire fighters flush it through a burning building? Do you suppose that might have had a contribution to the death of the twenty fish?

    This stuff is in the run-off....... it kills people. A little soap won't hurt you.
    VOCs (C2-C7) 7-27
    Aldehydes 0.6-5.4
    Formaldehyde 0.1-0.7
    Acrolein 0.02-0.1
    Propionaldehyde 0.1-0.3
    Butryaldehyde 0.01-1.7
    Acetaldehyde 0.03-0.6
    Furfural 0.2-1.6 1.6
    Substituted Furans 0.15-1.7
    Benzene 0.6-4.0
    Alkyl Benzenes 1-6
    Toluene 0.15-1.0
    Acetic Acid 1.8-2.4
    Formic Acid 0.06-0.08
    Nitrogen Oxides (NO,NO2) 0.2-0.9
    Sulfur Dioxide 0.16-0.24
    Methyl chloride 0.01-0.04
    Napthalene 0.24-1.6
    Substituted Napthalenes 0.3-2.1
    Oxygenated Monoaromatics 1 - 7
    Guaiacol (and denvatives) 0.4-1.6
    Phenol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8
    Syringol (and derivatives) 0.7-2.7
    Catechol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8
    Mark Cummins

  15. #35
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    Good grief man, go to Ansul's web site and check out what they have to say about foam and the enviroment!

    https://www.ansul.com/AnsulGetDoc.asp?FileID=8100

    Or this one:

    https://www.ansul.com/AnsulGetDoc.asp?FileID=8733
    Chief
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    In Memory of:
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    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
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    Oh, BTW..............on an MSDS from a leading Foam manufacturer. Any spill that is over one drum requires a Hazmat response.

    See it works both ways!

    We understand your wish for us to all use foam, but.................all of us can't afford foam for putting out 4 bales of hay! Please don't look down on us and proclaim how we "might as well be out there earning their high wages and wasting water while polluting the skies with the pretty brown and gray smoke and getting a dose of asthma, lung disease, cancer and brain tumors while thereíre at it."


    I really think your message would be a little better received if you would not be so high and mighty on your views.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    Oh,
    I really think your message would be a little better received if you would not be so high and mighty on your views.
    Your right, I appolodize if my post souded high and mighty. I just get a little frustrated when I see smoke and pollution that could be delt with except for financial limitations.

    BTW... the Ansul information sheets you posted were refering to the AFFF class B foaming agents I refered to earlier. Most chemical suppliers no longer produce the toxic formula. And that type of AFFF is way different than the environmentally friendly class A/B products being produced now.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Mark Cummins

  18. #38
    Forum Member spearsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arhaney
    We understand your wish for us to all use foam, but.................all of us can't afford foam for putting out 4 bales of hay! Please don't look down on us and proclaim how we "might as well be out there earning their high wages and wasting water while polluting the skies with the pretty brown and gray smoke and getting a dose of asthma, lung disease, cancer and brain tumors while thereíre at it."


    I really think your message would be a little better received if you would not be so high and mighty on your views.
    That just about sums it up.
    YGBSM!
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    If all you have is a hammer, then your problems start to look like nails.
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  19. #39
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking And, The View From Here..................

    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    That just about sums it up.
    If I may add, "Me Too"

    You really have to stop and ponder this old Fire Chief's view on Smoke, Toxics both real (a few) and Imagined (a lot), Foam, Water, and the Enviornment.


    I Could Care Less !

    Have a nice day.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  20. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber ameryfd's Avatar
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    My point was, it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to put $75 of foam along with $1000 of Fire Department time on a hay bale that is worth $35. My point is you need to see the potential of property being saved when coupled with the cost of saving it....

    Otherwise we'd be expending full resources putting out a fire in a 50-year old abandon chicken coop in the middle of no where.

    Regarding the toxic issues of a grass fire....I understand your concern. Once again though, we need to be careful otherwise we'll be turning everyone who has a wood burning fireplace into a hazordous materials site.

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