Suprise Live Burn

[chipt1]

You guys really need to get a grip. I have been a career firefighter for 20 years, made thousands of runs, fought hundreds of fires and one thing that I have learned is that there are those in the fire service who will say and do anything for their 15 minutes of fame.

It doesn't matter what the facts are, who really did the job, where you live and work. You will find a guy or gal that is willing to discredit his or her department to make him or her look good.

Unfortunately, where I live, it usually comes from a volunteer organization. Before you all start screaming about that comment, I started my career as a volunteer. I am just stating the fact of what I have seen in my area.

I also learned at a young age to get both sides of a story before forming an opinion. I think you will find that, in most cases, the story is never as it appears on the surface.

Additionally, do you all realize how stupid we look as a group to be so easily manipulate by such an article. Not to mention the general bias we must have against volunteer departments to assume that the leadership of these departments is dumb enough to do such a thing.

Here is what it comes down to. Everybody wants to assume the worst before knowing the facts. We assume that if it is writing it must be true. Rather than giving the benefit of the doubt, we take 4 or 5 paragraphs as gospel and make a decision based only on our emotions.

Doesn't say much for our so called "Professionalism"? Get off your high horses. Take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror. Are you perfect? I bet if you look deep enough you will find many area in which you could improve.

Let's clean up our own act before we pass judgment on someone else.

[RyanEMVFD]

I'd like to think that from the response that this story has received from the forums that word gets out to other departments to plan their live burns better and follow NFPA 1403 to the letter. It doesn't really matter now what happened at the live burn in NC. It already happened and no one can change what happened. Lets spread the word so no more firefighters get hurt or killed during training.

[F18Wub]

Originally posted by chipt1

Additionally, do you all realize how stupid we look as a group to be so easily manipulate by such an article. Not to mention the general bias we must have against volunteer departments to assume that the leadership of these departments is dumb enough to do such a thing.

Nope. But I do realize how stupid we look as a group when we are judged by the actions of a few stupid people. Oh, and by the way, I am sure a lot of career departments have poor leadership too.

[NJFFSA16]

Originally posted by chipt1
Get off your high horses. Take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror. Are you perfect? I bet if you look deep enough you will find many area in which you could improve.
Let's clean up our own act before we pass judgment on someone else.

Our high horses? Concerns about compliance with NFPA standards, firefighter safety and life safety are considered unjustified by you?


When a press release comes from a fire department, submitted to Firehouse.com....we take it at face value.

I myself, on more than one occasion....invited a representative from the Maiden, NC fire dept. to provide more information regarding this event. I suggested that Firehouse.com contact the person who submitted the article...asking for clarification. I suggested that "honeybun" who was in or near Maiden, NC... ask the Chief to come forward on these forums and state his case.

Promoting firefighter safety should be number 1 on all our agendas. We will continue to ask questions and debate this issue until the Maiden, NC fire OFFICIALS provide some facts about compliance with North Carolina and NFPA standards.

Get off your own horse chipt1...if you've learned so much in your 20 years...try sharing it with us by posting some of your precious thoughts.

To quote from one of your own posts chipt1....in another thread:

We have yet to learn from our past mistake......I mean no disrespect to those who have died in the line of duty, but I have first hand knowledge of losing a friend in the line of duty. And if he would have made it out alive, the first thing he would have said was, "boy that was really a stupid thing to do."
.....My point in all this is, that in my opinion, going to fire without the proper equipment, manpower, water supply, or fire flow is just a stupid thing to do....

Well, you know what? Surprise live burns are a stupid thing to do. Non compliance with NFPA 1403 is a stupid thing to do. Not learning from past mistakes is a stupid thing to do. Lights and sirens to a drill is a stupid thing to do.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by chipt1
You guys really need to get a grip. I have been a career firefighter for 20 years, made thousands of runs, fought hundreds of fires and one thing that I have learned is that there are those in the fire service who will say and do anything for their 15 minutes of fame.

It doesn't matter what the facts are, who really did the job, where you live and work. You will find a guy or gal that is willing to discredit his or her department to make him or her look good.

Unfortunately, where I live, it usually comes from a volunteer organization. Before you all start screaming about that comment, I started my career as a volunteer. I am just stating the fact of what I have seen in my area.

I also learned at a young age to get both sides of a story before forming an opinion. I think you will find that, in most cases, the story is never as it appears on the surface.

Additionally, do you all realize how stupid we look as a group to be so easily manipulate by such an article. Not to mention the general bias we must have against volunteer departments to assume that the leadership of these departments is dumb enough to do such a thing.

Here is what it comes down to. Everybody wants to assume the worst before knowing the facts. We assume that if it is writing it must be true. Rather than giving the benefit of the doubt, we take 4 or 5 paragraphs as gospel and make a decision based only on our emotions.

Doesn't say much for our so called "Professionalism"? Get off your high horses. Take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror. Are you perfect? I bet if you look deep enough you will find many area in which you could improve.

Let's clean up our own act before we pass judgment on someone else.

Well, well, well, lookie what we have here.

You, Chippie, are grossly misinformed. It appears to me that you have absolutely no idea who you are talking to. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. How many LODD investigations have you conducted?
2. How many live burn training accidents, where people were seriously and permanently injured have you investigated?
3. How many times have your esearched the past eight or ten or so live fire training incidents where FF have been killed?
4. How many times have you read NFPA 1403?
5. When was the last class you took on fire dynamics or fire engineering?
6. When was the last time you took a class on the proepr way to conduct live burn training?
7. When was the last time you picked a professional journal and learned what the state of the art is in regards to fire training?

I am not anxious to get bounced off of here by the WT. However, I will allow you time to answer these questions and then I will tailor a reply to your stupidity that is experience appropriate.

[Dalmatian90]

Additionally, do you all realize how stupid we look as a group to be so easily manipulate by such an article.

Hmmm, give me a scale:
Do we look more stupid or less stupid than a department that even in their "damage control" admit they respond lights & sirens over public highways to a drill?

Part of the problem is the 'net, part of the problem is the American tradition (especially over the last forty years) of adverserial debate on issues of I'm right/You're wrong.

There are lessons to be learned/reinforced here. There are win/win answers out there, and maybe we don't do enough on the net of that.

But that doesn't mean we have to excuse or ignore times when truly poor decision making was done, and there are a number of elements to both the original and revised story that scream "Good intentions...not thought out." Good intentions have in the last few years killed firefighters in training in New York, in Delaware, in Florida, in California. George and others here know a lot more about a lot more incidents than I do.

There's a fairly strong pattern of "What were they thinking?" that comes through on these incidents.

[NJFFSA16]

Originally posted by chipt1
....do you all realize how stupid we look as a group to be so easily manipulate by such an article. Not to mention the general bias we must have against volunteer departments to assume that the leadership of these departments is dumb enough to do such a thing.

So now that I've thought about that statement...this reply.

I suppose we should all sit around when someone sends an article like that to Firehouse.com, and say to ourselves..."hmmm, I think I'll keep quiet about that blatant, outrageous disregard for firefighter safety...because the leadership just couldn't be that stupid." "Perhaps I should wait for the next article to appear...the one that explains it was all a misunderstanding." "That Chief just couldn't be that stupid."

We would have never heard a word from the Maiden, NC fire department regarding this incident. Whether they have presented us with the facts..or a smokescreen to cover their stupidity....the second article would have never appeared. But because we all chose to speak out....they rendered a response.

People took the time to express their thoughts, pro or con, about what appeared on the surface, as an act of total stupidity. They debated the issue, argued points, discussed NFPA 1403, remembered Lairdsville and so many other tragedies that killed our brothers.

That isn't riding on a high horse...it deserves high praise. We recall the mistakes of the past and, at least, attempt to prevent them from ever happening again. Does that make us look foolish. Does that give us the appearance of being manipulated?

Chipt1....I read your post in another thread. You were touched by a line of duty death. Yet you prefer for us to remain silent about what we perceived as an "accident waiting to happen?" How many Brad Goldens need to die before we react? Did a second article appear in the Utica newspaper that said..."this never really happened...everything is fine." No...because a Chief was dumb enough to do the unimaginable.

The initial article could have read....Firefighter and three local residents killed. Engine was responding to a training exercise!"

Now THAT is something that would make us look foolish.