1. #1
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default "Charge the line" poll on FH Main page

    I was looking at the current poll on the main page and after voting I was a little concerned.

    For those who haven't seen it the question is:
    "Fire Showing on Side D, Second Floor from 2 windows. When do you charge the attack line"

    The available answers are:
    A. At the front door
    B. At the base of the stairs
    C. At the top of the stairs
    D. At the fire room
    E. None of the above, hitting it from the outside
    F. Other - N/A

    At the time I voted there were 7,494 votes with 3% choosing E. Hitting it from the outside. Now I was never a stellar math student but my calculations show that based on that percentage that of the 7,494 voters, approximately 225 FF's would hit this thing from the outside.

    Now we don't have any other details such as type of building, crew size, known hazards, condition of building, etc or anything other than fire showing 2 windows floor 2 on the D side. But it seems like a self venting fire confined to one end of the building (according to the snap shot in time we were given), make entry and get it knocked down.

    Again based on my assumption (I know very dangerous!) of fire contained to the one end of the building and self venting, fighting it from the outside is going against a basic principal I learned in FF1 of fighting fire from the unburned to the burned and not pushing it through the rest of the building.

    Any body else have a thought?

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    sarver,pa
    Posts
    104

    Default

    crew to the top of the stairs and charge the line. hitting it from the outside baffles me.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    What is "Other"???? In the crosslay...excited engineer...grab new line.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    StLRes2cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    ..........
    Posts
    407

    Default

    First, I was wondering what percentage that would be...so thanks for doing the math. Second, of course you are right. They will push that fire through the ENTIRE rest of the house. Those 255 men should not be called fire fighters; they should be called fire containers (provided that they can stop any exposure problem that may arise.)

    Trainer, these are the same 255 FF that will put on a pack and no bunker gear or pull siding off the outside of the house to get a better "view" of the fire.

    These are the same good ol' boys that were drinking at the fire barn a few minutes before the call came out. These are the same idiots that when something tragic does happen because of their complete lack of knowledge towards anything fire related, we will call "Heroes" at their funeral.

    Rant Off.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    Trainer, these are the same 255 FF that will put on a pack and no bunker gear or pull siding off the outside of the house to get a better "view" of the fire.

    These are the same good ol' boys that were drinking at the fire barn a few minutes before the call came out. These are the same idiots that when something tragic does happen because of their complete lack of knowledge towards anything fire related, we will call "Heroes" at their funeral.
    They are probably the same ones doing surprise live training burns as well....... my apologies for that one but you got me started


  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,685

    Default

    They may also be the ones that are responding with 2 FF's on their engine and 15 minutes till second due shows up.

    I doubt it, but it's possible.


    I'm one of the lonely, D At the fire room votes.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Originally posted by StayBack500FT
    What is "Other"???? In the crosslay...excited engineer...grab new line.
    LMAO

    I didnt vote, but if I did it would be "C".
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  8. #8
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    21

    Default

    you would probably be surprised at how many rural volunteer departments don't do interior attack unless there's a known-live-victim inside and then it's "ify" whether the attack line crew will make it out.

    it wasn't until the early 90's that all departments in my county (not my department or our closest brother department) even attempted interior attack. we, and our brother department, we're classified (unofficially) by other depts as being "that crazy bunch down there" for doing aggressive interior attack (and been doing so for 20-30 years or more).

    some folks have it in their mind that if there's no one inside, "..screw it, fight it from the windows." We're of the mindset, "...screw it, put it out if it's melting the asphault outside." ok, a little dramatic, but we're highly aggressive.

    oh, to answer the poll, crew inside to the top of the stairs, then charge the line, no sense working the crew to death by dragging a fully charged 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" all the way up the stairs.

    (and of course to be 2in2out compliant, a crew outside with another line :-)

    /john
    --
    John Holstein, Asst. Chief
    Danville Volunteer Fire Department
    www.danvillevfd.com

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    phx
    Posts
    120

    Lightbulb

    why wouldnt you charge the line before you went in the structure. just because see fire in one area doesnt mean its not anywhere else in the house.it could have started on the bottom floor and used the stairwell as a method of getting to the second floor. just my opinion to always have water ready when entering any structure thats showing fire.

    JOE

  10. #10
    unrepentant fool
    ranahan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    back home for the first time in MANY years
    Posts
    199

    Default

    My opinion is that there's just too little information here to make a sound judgment.

    I'd favor choice C in a lot of cases, but not all.

    What if it's an abandoned building, and I don't know its condition? Am I even going to make entry to the structure if it puts me and my crew at greater risk than there is benefit?
    What if there's a critical exposure on the outside of the structure, barely out of reach of the flames? My efforts might be focused on that exposure instead.
    There are plenty of other circumstances we should consider too -- these are the reasons why we should do a complete size-up.

    The poll's writer just didn't give us enough data to make a conclusive answer, I think.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    Although this question was way too general, I picked "C".
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    I think this is just a general question, for an opinion. If the apartment entrance is at the top of the stairs and the door burns through before you get water,which I've seen in older buildings, you could get burned. If you charge at the bottom and the entrance is at the far end of the hall you're dragging the line all over. Then you have to get to the seat of the fire to hit it. Just figured I'd throw more wood on the fire. So, I would go with top of the stairs. Unless the apartment door is right there then I'd charge at the bottom and move up into it. Did I pick "other" ?????????

  13. #13
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Perchance not everyone who is a member of Firwhouse is a real Firefighter, there are a lot of wannabes in the lists.

    Also Explorers from memory are not allowed inside burning structures so they would HAVE TO vote E.

    Now that would make more than 3% of the forum members, therefore some Explorers have learnt things while reading these pages.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Originally posted by skatcat13
    why wouldnt you charge the line before you went in the structure. just because see fire in one area doesnt mean its not anywhere else in the house.it could have started on the bottom floor and used the stairwell as a method of getting to the second floor. just my opinion to always have water ready when entering any structure thats showing fire.

    JOE
    Joe, have you ever pulled a charged line up a flight of stairs? it's pretty damn heavy. now, have you ever pulled a dry line up a flight of stairs? much easier.

    unless you have fire showing on the other side of the door you are entering, it's sometimes easier to operate with a dry line, and then only charge it when you are ready to use it (ie, when you are right outside the fire room).
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  15. #15
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    and a pucker factor of 10 when you realise your radio is knackered.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    jerrygarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    KC
    Posts
    630

    Default

    I voted for the top of the stairs. I am a truckman but pull my share of hose line.

    P.S. Everybody, grab a handful on your way in next time.


  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CrossBro1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    187

    Default

    I voted for the top of the stairs too. It's a good tactical location. If you charge it at the bottom of the stairs you have a much heavier line that doesn't maneuver very well. If you wait until you are right outside the room you are taking a risk that you get water before anything happens. By charging it at the top of the stairs you are in a position to make an attack or retreat down the stairs if need be.

  18. #18
    tny
    tny is offline
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    163

    Default

    I agree with what some others have stated that --- nowhere near enough initial size up info provided to give a qualified answer. We donít even know what type of structure (single or multiple occupancy Ėtype and dimensions of structure and location of fire - etc. However, your officer, truckies and/or senior engine crew member from your first due should be providing you with that info (maybe even close the apartment/bedroom door while your initial attack line is being stretched off the rig and water supply is being established.

    JMO

    Stay Safe.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    315

    Default Vote

    I voted for the top of the stairs also. We have enough work to do at the fire scene, save the energy. Obviously this is a small picture of an incident but from the info given I chose C.
    If you get to the door and force the door and you have fire showing on the first floor charge the line then, it is not going to put you in any worse of a position you are outside. I dont think any one of use would just rush in with out taking in the factors. IE smoke condition, heat level etc. If you have a doubt if their is fire charge it at the door. But if the conditions are good save the energy.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    phx
    Posts
    120

    Default

    DAN I DO AGREE WITH YOU BUT I WOULD ALWAYS LIKE TO HAVE WATER AVAILABLE WHEN I ENTER A STRUCTURE.ALSO ITS NOT A HIGH RISE EITHER ITS A TWO STORY HOUSE.IF YOU ARE FIGHTING THIS FIRE OFFENSIVELY YOU WILL HAVE AT LEAST ONE MORE FIREMAN HELPING WITH THE HOSE IF NOT MORE.ALTHOUGH IT IS MUCH EASIER TO PULL IT UP UNCHARGED.

    JOE

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    59

    Default

    My answer was "C". However, I could see some cases where a blitz attack from the exterior with a smooth bore nozzle may be used by a crew with minimum manpower, until more help arrives. We have to remember that we don't live and work in a perfect world and we must use tactics that fit the situatiion at hand.
    Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Originally posted by skatcat13
    ALSO ITS NOT A HIGH RISE EITHER ITS A TWO STORY HOUSE.IF YOU ARE FIGHTING THIS FIRE OFFENSIVELY YOU WILL HAVE AT LEAST ONE MORE FIREMAN HELPING WITH THE HOSE IF NOT MORE.ALTHOUGH IT IS MUCH EASIER TO PULL IT UP UNCHARGED.

    JOE
    First of all, please do not use all caps........

    Second.... Where do you get that this is a two story house???? It says nothing about type of structure in the question.......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Without know 100% that the fire is contained to the second floor I would definitely enter with a charged line.

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber
    nozzelvfd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    423

    Talking

    O.K. Heres what ya do, the answer is F (other). See you go into the neighbors house (or exposer building) and shoot the attack line across the radiant heat towards the flames of the burning building. This way you are protecting exposer and hitting the flames.... HA! HA! HA!


    But in reality I say at the top of the stairs, unless size up determins that the entire second floor is involved, then I would go with the front door as the answer!!!

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    134

    Default

    There are certainly a lot of people saying charge the line before you enter the house, bottom of the stairs, etc. To me, charging the line before you get at least to the fire room does not make sense, but that is only in my experience with my department's resources and tactics. So here are some questions I am curious to know from those who differ from me:

    - If you are the first due engine, aren't you going to be doing a quick search for the seat/victims along the way? What if getting to that room is not as simple as "top of the stairs?" Seeing as no other details are available, does it change your "absolutely when you enter" or "bottom of the stairs" tactics if its not as simple as the door on the right side at the top of the stairs? Some average houses can be tricky, that fire may be in a large closet, back or even hidden room. Could be a lot of turns to get to that room...

    - Do you have excessive personnel or very minimal personnel? In other words, do you have 4-5 guys on a line to follow the charged line and keep it from getting snagged on turns and nooks? Do you not have enough to keep a man on the pump?!

    -Is it a financial (SAFETY) issue that your interior crews cannot call for water when they need it? Entering the room with no water may be risky if the radios crap out, but if you are right outside of that door, and call for water unsuccessfully, can't you back out? I wouldn't want to enter at all with that radio.

    We are all working short staffed, some more than others. But a charged line seems to turn a 2 man job into at least a 4 man job (and heaven help you if you got 2 guys advancing a 2.5). If you manage it with 2, I commend you, but I feel like you will certainly be spending more time in rehab.

    Don't mean to belittle any of you, just really curious if you all are (what seems to me to be overly) cautious or if your resources have forced you into this.

    As far as hitting it from outside, I may not agree with it, but I have certainly heard of this tactic in areas with fire resistant construction, hitting it with the deck gun to give it a knock down, then advancing. This may not be perfect as people tend to like to screw with door closing mechanisms (residents chocking hallway doors open, not closing their own), but just another way to look at it as the poll doesn't give specifics.

    Any thoughts?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register