1. #1
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    Question Do you have SCOTT NxG2 or Airpak 50?? I need your input

    My department is looking at buying new SCOTT airpaks. We've looked at the NxG2 and the Airpak 50. I know the 50 is a great pak, and many of us think the NxG2 is really cool, except that since it is so new the bugs might not be worked out yet.
    So does anyone have NxG2's and can you tell me any good or bad things about how it performs?
    If given the chance would you go to the 50?
    Does SCOTT have a pack frame with an integrated rappel system?
    We will be getting the 45 min carbon fiber bottles at 4500psi. I'm especially looking for any firefighters who are SCBA techs and work on these things.
    Thanks very much
    Alan

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    We were one of the first departments to get Nxg2's through a grant. We have had them in-service for about 6-7 months. We got 45 packs. The pack is very comfortable and functional. Initially, we had some battery problems, as in them not lasting as long as expected. Some packs went back I do believe and now it doesn't seem to be an issue. Also, there were some issues with the tones when you change bottles. Sometimes the electronic sounds and lights did not flash when you changed bottles. I believe those packs were serviced and now it is not a problem. Scott had stood behind the product very well and answered any problems we have had.

    We did get 45 minute bottles and they are big. Tight fit in some apparatus.

    Other than that, now that the straps are starting to get broken in, I don't think there is to much. Having your own mask is great. We did get the voice amps also, although we have to trade them at shift change rather than having our own. I'm still not convinced you wouldn't be okay without them. Overall, I think they're pretty good. Some growing pains but nothing major.

    I'd be happy to talk to more about them if you want. Contact me by e-mail: rstandiford@buckeye-express.com

    Good luck
    Rod

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    Our dept had some of the same battery and light/tone problems. Some a couple of the air packs went back to the Scott dealer and 2 went back to the factory. As rstandi stated Scott stands behind there product, and does everything they can to get you going if you have problems. Other than that the air pack is awesome, wore one on a structure fire back in Nov. and worked great. Heads up display is kinda cool, and I love the quick change bottles.

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    As a Scott technician and sales person I receive this question all the time, and to be honest I sit the fence. The AP50 is a great pak, the workhorse of the fleet. However the NxG2 is the new kid on the block with flashy lights and new features. Perhaps the biggest feature I can see to the NxG2 is NOT the snap change cylinder (a device I envision problems with in the future) but rather the comfort of the backframe. In demonstration with the NxG2 I have noticed a large decrease in fatigue, the pak simply sits better on my hips then the older AP50.
    While the snap change is kind of cool, how often do we need to rapidly change a cylinder to return to work, often times the break we receive during cylinder change out is a much needed one. Now the arguement can be made the hot bottle changes are easier with the snap change, my responsce to that is invest in a RIT pak and simply refill the cylinder already on your back, even better then a hot bottle chang. (After all someone needs to bring the new cylinder, might as well bring in the RIT pak).
    My major concern with the NxG2 is the mixture of electronics with firefighting. While I know the AP50 already has intergrated PASS and HUD, neither device directly involves the operation of the airpak. It has already happened that an NxG2 had completely lost battery power, and when a new cylinder was installed, the audible and vision alerts indicating the cylinder was locked in did not work (the firefighters assumed because the batteries were dead). However without that electronic notification that the cylinder was in place there is no way of confirming that it is. Needless to say the firefighter wearing the airpak didnot make it far when the cylinder fell from the airpak landing on the valve, forunetly nothing tragic happened, but the potentional was there.
    Another concern with the electronics in the NxG2 are the style in which there are connected. Simple, lightweight, connectors are used throughout the airpak. This causes the connections to become easily pulled out, especially as the pak ages.
    So to finalize (this extremely long response) my gut as a tech is to say stick with the AP50, however I can see the appeal of the NxG2 in comfort. Best of luck with your purchase, and, oh yeah, thank you for choosing Scott.

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    We put our NxG2 in service last night. As far as we are concerned they are excellent. Comfortable and the quick change bottle is 2000 tech vs WWII. We also purchased voice amps, some radio interfaces, and a RIT bag/tank. Refilling a bottle while it is on my back is a last ditch option and we aren't going to be change out bottles while INSIDE a structure. The bottle change is very useful when, as we ar, a small dept with limited manpower. The last time we used SCBA extensively every man went thru 4 or 5 bottles. If you have lots of manpower & SCBA and can go to rehab for 1/2 hour you perhaps you don't need the feature.

    We're very impressed with the NxG2 so far. Time will tell. Salesman/trainer knew what he was doing. Equipment looks to be very well desgined and put together as you would expect from one of the two major manufacturers. Due to receiving a fire grant we're trading up from early 90s Scott/MSA so we actually may be very easy to impress. Our new leather boots and turnout gear sure did so. Heck, so did the rechargable ED Streamlights. We're in hogheaven.

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    We just got NxG2 packs, but their not in service yet. We liked them enough to buy them, but like everyone else, we'll let you know more after a good break in period.

    About the rit pack, do they make a rit pack with enough pressure to fill a bottle on your back? And if so, how many will it do?

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    Default NxG2!

    I am a Scott Tech. for both the AP50 and the NxG2. The AP50 is a great pack that is very durable and will work well for years to come. The NxG2 has a lot of the same features as far as the inner workings. The problems that the others have talked about were fairly minior and Scott took care of them right away. In the 18+ years I've worked on Scott Paks they have always stood by there product.

    All of the departments that I've work with that have the NxG2 love them, and have given great reviews.

    I think that you will be happy with either pack that you buy.

    If you have any other questions please e-mail me.
    ppflederer@juno.com

    Patrick

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    We placed 15 NXG2's in service about 2 months ago and so far so good. We also evaluated the AP50 but felt the benefits of the NXG outweighed the potential risk of new product "glitches" I can vouch for the comfort of the pack frame on the NXG...spent close to 3hrs in one the other night performing salvage/overhaul at a law office fire and never really got tired of it being on my back. Another little tid bit...battery maintenance on the AP50 is a pain in the rear! 1 screw and a twist of a cam lock lever is all there is to it on the NXG. So long as you don't currently do alot of bottle sharing with other mutual aid depts, I'd go with the NXG2.

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    We have the AP50 and are currently upgrading them to NFPA 2002 standards. We have not even discussed the newer pack for our department. Currently we operate 40 of these units and have not experienced any operational problems. As a Scott certified technician I can say that the AP50 as stated before is a workhorse. Our units get abused as they do in any department and still continue to function. The key to any SCBA is proper use and maintenance. Our units are tested annually and after any work/maintanance has been completed (with the exception of a battery change). I had doubts about the electronics that are now integrated into the system. The only electronic problems that we have encountered is dead batteries. Due to recent state requirements our units are tested each day on all apparatus (front line or reserve) and this has virtually eliminated any problems. Our personnel like the HUD feature that we are installing in the upgrades. Also we were able to purchase the voice amplifier for each member. All upgrades were completed as a result of grants.

    We currently have 3 RIT paks on order for our units. I do not see the need for the NxG2 quick change feature that has been previously dicussed. Personnaly I want to a breather while the bottle is being changed. I am not in favor of filling the bottle while I am "attached" to it. There was another thread recently that dicussed catastrophic bottle failures and I for one do not want to be anywhere near if this was to occur. That is why we have frag tanks for the filling of the bottles. I may be tough but I am not that tough.

    My vote is for the AP50. Good unit and has a proven track record.

    Hope this aids you in you decision.

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    About the rit pack, do they make a rit pack with enough pressure to fill a bottle on your back? And if so, how many will it do?
    Most RIT packs use standard SCBA bottles, the same that you have on all your SCBA. Therefore, if you have a 4500psi bottle, it will fill one bottle to 2250psi. You could then fill another bottle to 1125psi. In other words, it won't fill to a higher pressure than what it currently has. Volumne wise will be determined by how big a bottle you have, 30min, 45min, 60min, etc.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Rossco
    About the rit pack, do they make a rit pack with enough pressure to fill a bottle on your back? And if so, how many will it do?
    We got our NxG2 with 45min bottles (high pressure). RIT with a 60min bottle. Hose from the RIT plugs onto a bayonet connector on the neck of the receivers pack (a one way valve). I'm not sure if the RIT tank fills/will flow to the receivers tank or just flows to his regulator. RIT pack also has a regulator/low pressure hose you can plug directly into the receivers mask. We got an extra mask in the RIT so we can mask a victim or replace the mask of a firefighter. Have never had any RIT equip so thanks fire grant.

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    My department purchased the NxG2 packs through a grant. We had battery problems, and o-ring problems where our bottles would not stay full. Both problems have been resolved by Scott. We make jokes about the packs because of all the flashing lights, they look like they belong in Star Wars. The built in pass device is a great feature and I found the gauges easier to read than on our old Scotts. The heads up display is also easy to readin all conditions. We are using the 45 min bottles, and have been pleased other than the pressure problem. We also purchased the SEMS and are still training with it. That in itself is worth using this pack. This is a great tool for fireground accountability and firefighter safety. If anyone has any questions, please post.

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    This was taken right from Firefighterclosecalls.com We have the NXG2's as well (10) So far they are nice, but I would just prefer a 50 with the HUD.

    I writing to warn other departments about our experiences with the new generation SCBA from SCOTT, the NxG2. We purchased the new units several months ago. Immediately after putting them into service we began have problems. The first problem we encountered involved the new electronics. The new packs were eating up batteries, some at a rate of new batteries every week. Packs were constantly out of service. SCOTT was contacted. This was an on going problem and we had to wait a period of time for a new circuit board to be developed. To Scotts credit they covered the cost of the batteries. Eventually SCOTT came out and changed all the electronics, this did help with the problem but the problem persisted at a much lesser extent.



    Meanwhile we had a fire in sub-freezing temperatures. During this fire the cylinders were freezing into the harnesses. This was due to the new way they "snap" into the harness. At any given time multiple harnesses were out of service while they thawed inside of the cab of a truck. We then ran some testing several times, all in above freezing ambient temperatures. I will outline just one of the tests.



    We took three NxG2s and ran a test. The ambient temperature was approximately 65 degrees Fahrenheit. We wiped the cylinder connection with a wet paper towel (to simulate a damp bottle from rain or over spray) and inserted it into the harness. We then emptied the 30 minute bottle over a period of 14 minutes. At the end, the cylinder was frozen into the harnesses in all three cases. It took between 14 and 17 minutes for the system to thaw out enough to allow the cylinders to be changed.



    We decided that this was unacceptable. Being form New England, many months out of the year are below freezing so these would become single use harnesses. No changing cylinders, we would have to change the whole harness. And the test showed that this could be the case even in above freezing temperatures.



    The last and potentially most dangerous problem we found involved the optional Dual EBBS (buddy breathing) system. We found during a training exercises that this system could open up accidentally, causing a loss of air. On this system there are two connection points, male and female. There is a collar on the male connection. This collar, without much force can be pushed back causing the system to open. A test revealed that a full cylinder could be bled out in as little a about 2 minutes. It is not unconceivable that a firefighter could fall on or have something fall onto this connection and cause a total loss of air. (On a side note this EBBS option is available on the SCOTT Pack 50. It has the same problem.)



    SCOTT representatives when asked acknowledged the EBBS problem and stated that they were designing a pouch that would totally encapsulate the connections. When asked about the freezing connections, they had no answers. Only that they could not change physics.



    We as a union, with full support of our Chief, determined these harnesses to be a safety risk. At this time all NxG2s have been returned, without hesitation from SCOTT. We are now in the process of testing the SCOTT Pack 50, with out the EBBS. This model has a different system known as the EBSS system. Quick tests have found no problems. The cylinders connect through the old method of screwing on. The EBSS system looks reliable. We will continue testing for a short period but my gut is that we will be staying with this model. We had the old SCOTT 50s for many years and never had a problem. This is the same pack with extras to meet the NFPA regulations.



    If you have any questions feel free to contact me:



    Lt. Rick Nelson

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    781-944-3132

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    As a regular user of scott airpaks, I have used the AP50 and never liked it, in fact the airpak 50's purchased by my local department have been retrofitted with the wire frame by the local scott dealer. Some of the problems encountered include, back plates that broke in two, and the incompatibility of the straps with our firefighter removal procedures. The department that I work for uses scott 4.5s with wire frames and recent (last few years) upgrades have included the heads up display, cbrn regulators, detachable regulators (why I am unsure) with longer lp hoses to get caught on things and some stupid fitting attached to the end of the high pressure hose which to makes for another entanglement hazard.
    The NXG2 looks like everything else in the fireservice a new way to make $$$.
    The whole quick fill concept??? when we fill bottles they are in a metal sleeve behind 2 steel doors, must be dangerous huh? why should I do this with the thing attached to my body?

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    rstandi, how are they working out for you guys? Any other issues?????
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    We had the wire frame Scott 4.5 and upgraded to the Scott AP50 with the 45 minute carbon fiber cylinders. Other than a few PASS alarm activations due to the a few of the 45 minute cylinders leaking by slightly (a Luxfer problem and covered under warranty), they have been just as reliable as our old 4.5's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Most RIT packs use standard SCBA bottles, the same that you have on all your SCBA. Therefore, if you have a 4500psi bottle, it will fill one bottle to 2250psi. You could then fill another bottle to 1125psi. In other words, it won't fill to a higher pressure than what it currently has. Volumne wise will be determined by how big a bottle you have, 30min, 45min, 60min, etc.


    Thanks Bones, I was trying to see if this TECH was going to offer me some new gimmick that noone had ever heard of before.

    Why would anyone think that we're going to send our crews back into a dangerous environment with a half full bottle? If you had the largest 4500 psi RIT bottle availible, and you ran 2216 on your 30 minute air packs, you could fill 1. Not exactly the answer I expected from a Scott Tech.

    I would never advise anyone to practice filling bottles on their backs as a regular part of fire fighting. If I were in a situation where the RIT had to come rescue me, and my bottle was empty, sure, thanks, I'll take a quick (HALF TANK FULL), but beyond that, I like my bottles filled in a safe enclosure.


    Back to the NxG2. Ours have been in service now for just a few months. We encountered some of the same problems that others have described here. We were told when we were deciding what Scott pack to go with, that they were developing a new software(circuit board) to help with some problems. One of these problems was battery life. After the new boards were installed, the battery life was better, but still not great. Now, all this time, we were taking advantage of the special prices our rep had on these batteries, and also sticking with the brand that had been specified as the only one to be tested in this pack to date. Long story short, the batteries they were giving us were just junk. I got batteries at the local store, and the problem is gone. I put some of their batteries in another piece of equipment, and big surprise, they didn't last there either.

    I get scared when I read some of the horror stories like bottles freezing in, or EBSS opening up. I have tried to pull, push, pry, and I have not been able to get ours to malfunction. We will be experimenting with the freeze up problem too. To date, this has not happened during our trainings, or incidents where we've used them.

    Finally, we have nothing bad to say about Scott and the dealer we bought the packs from. They have really serviced us well, and have been Johnny On The Spot any time I've called them. They did not push us one way or the other, and were very clear that the NxG2 was new, and not as tried and true as the AP50. They also said that Scott was dedicated to it, and will be standing behind them, as indicated by the warranty.
    There goes the neighborhood.

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    Thanks for the info. Our job put them on last year with no mention of what they are for and we definitly do not currently have anything to connect to them. Our protocols are for the fast unit to bring an scba for the victim. We know it works and if the downed member's scba is still operational we stay with it.
    As far as the required by NFPA stuff, the NFPA makes recomendations and has no regulatory authority like OSHA has. NFPA recommendations for equipment always translate into departments spending more money (usually for things that already worked fine), this due to the fact that many NFPA committees are filled with manufacturers representatives. While the NFPA compiles alot of data and does provide a service to the fire service as a whole, to many departments and individuals have become consumed with NFPA compliance. Firefighter training and safety should be the top priorities of the fire service not jumping thru hoops and spending millions to replace perfectly good equipment in the name of compliance. I'll step down from my soap box now. Have a safe night all.

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    We use newer model MSA's I love them to death , hardley never any problems besides maintenence like batterys and such , but then again those are the only type of packs I've ever used. We still have older scott bottles laying around but those are used for air bags .
    " We are not extraordinary people , we are people caught in extraordinary situations. " Chapter 1 IFSTA Manual

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    Actually,NO YOU WON'T! ANY RIT pack with transfill will immediately fill the low bottle to rated pressure (Ie 2216) and relief off any excess over that.For example a 4500 Rit pack will fill an empty(or nearly so)2216 to 2216 and have the same left over in the rit.On the next transfill you'll get 50% of 2250 and so on.Except for bottle volume a 60 min bottle doesn't gain you much on transfill operations.Now if the pack you're filling as 15-1600 psi left the Rit pack will still take it to 2216 but any excess pressure over that will be vented to atmosphere thru a relief valve.True of any Rit pack I've worked with. And TH you BETTER have ALL your bottles Hydroed at Mfg specified time intervals REGARDLESS if they are used for Rit operations.Neiowa,You state you've worked thru 4 or 5 bottles. Why? We have a two bottle rule.After two bottles you take a break with medical monitoring.If we have an incident requiring that long period of airpack use,we will have probably two or three task force units in to assist us. By my experience,firefighters in excellent physical condition(many aren't)should NOT exceed three bottles in a single incident(long term incidents with proper med evals excepted). I've yet to see where the snap change bottles would benefit our ops,I personally like to take a minute while we're changing bottles to get an update on interior ops.Same goes with 45min cylinders.We have both 30's and 60's(haz mat).I find the 30's allow easier manuvering and the ff wearing one looks pretty beat when they come out. So for what we do,I don't see a reason to go 45 minute at this time.We run a mix of wire frame and AP 50's.Both have given us excellent service and nothing for problems. The Nxg uses the same regulator components so I guess it's a question of the snap change and electronics as to which one you care to maintain.I kinda like someones tech2000 vs WW2 analogy.I'm WW2 technology.I've got some tech2000 nozzles and some WW2 nozzles. My 2000 nozzles have a bunch of plastic in them,some broken.My WW2 nozzles are made of BRASS,and you know what? They're not broke and they still put out fires.Same with the AP50. Newer is NOT NECESSARILY better. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-29-2005 at 10:19 AM.

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    The standard RIT connection from what I know and have been told was developed by MSA and adopted by about everybody else.The ONLY way a Rit pack will operate as you state is to have a downstream regulator prior to the Rit connection or else ISI is feeding the air into another location.The purpose of having the RIT fitting is STANDARDIZATION so anybody's Rit pack will work with anybody's pack.And in the interest of safety,the Rit pack's I'm familiar with (Scott and MSA)operate as I have outlined.And the ONLY way you can get a balanced air as YOU have indicated is with a regulated supply PRIOR to the Rit connection.What you say is TRUE but ONLY with the ISI RIT pack and ONLY for ISI packs.The star,while available with different fittings,will only work thru a buddy breather or quick change regulator and even then is brand specific . The ISI RIC pack operates as I have outlined and is NOT brand specific.Out of the two,I'd rather have the universal version which you CAN hook a regulator/mask assembly or assemblies to for a truly universal Rit pack.In our case,we setup for Scott/ MSA and we're good to go.But a nice informational link,Thanks. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-29-2005 at 03:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    The ONLY way a Rit pack will operate as you state is to have a downstream regulator prior to the Rit connection or else ISI is feeding the air into another location.The purpose of having the RIT fitting is STANDARDIZATION so anybody's Rit pack will work with anybody's pack.And in the interest of safety,the Rit pack's I'm familiar with (Scott and MSA)operate as I have outlined.And the ONLY way you can get a balanced air as YOU have indicated is with a regulated supply PRIOR to the Rit connection.What you say is TRUE but ONLY with the ISI RIT pack and ONLY for ISI packs..
    It is TRUE only for ISI SCBA's. The ISI RIC connection is accepts the NFPA standard charging coupling used by ALL manufactures. The ISI RIC coupling on ISI Vikings uses an internal valve which shuts off the tranfer of air when it reaches a pre-set pressure, regardless of who's charging bottle or pressure and it DOES NOT vent excess air. Air is transfered to the users bottle or remains in the charging bottle and charging line ONLY, no air is lost or routed else where.

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    We just got a grant and will be replaceing our 4.5s and AP50s with 25 NxG2 4500psi-30 min with spare bottles and a 4500-60min RIT bottle. We are going with the 30 minute bottles as with the heat down here we dont want the crews inside for 45 minutes. 30 is plenty then its time for re-hab.
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    Lots of good stuff here on RIT packs and their operation. We got the new ba, but couldn't afford the rit pack yet. As far as filling bottles with a rit pack though, my point was that it's just not my idea of a good fire ground practice. So, maybe you could fill 2 in a pinch, unless I have a real situation, we won't be apt to do it even when we get the rit pack.

    As far as always getting half of what is left in the FILLING bottle, I believe that only works if the bottles are both the same volume. Example. If the filling bottle is larger, then both bottles will end up with more than half of what the filling bottle started with. 60 minute 4500 rit filling an empty 30 minute 4500 won't equalize at 2250.

    Dave, congrats on the grant.
    There goes the neighborhood.

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    Rit quick fills are for EMERGENCY USE ONLY.Not for routine filling. ALL bottles MUST be checked for current Hydro BEFORE filling.No current hydro,NO FILL either ON or off the fireground.Yes, the volume of a bottle will affect how many you can fill,but the difference between a 60 and a thirty in transfill is not as dramatic as you might think.All of our cascade/compressor systems operators in all of the MA towns around us are absolutely ANAL about checking hydro dates.If your bottles are out of date they WON'T get filled. The risk is too great.And DOL(Dept of labor)makes unannounced checks on all depts in the State. I don't think you want to know the fine on having an out of date bottle on a working pack. OK to have them in the station as long as they are tagged with a firmly affixed tag in bright colors that says out of service/hydro.We pull any bottle that's due BEFORE the due date and send them out. All one has to do is look at the damage that was done to a Detroit FD Engine by a damaged bottle to realize that this is a very critical part of operations.And potentially VERY dangerous if not done correctly. T.C.

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