Required escape harnis/rope for structure PPE?

[SamsonFCDES]

Should the NFPA/OSHA/Powers that be mandate that structural PPE be required to be equiped with escape harnis/ropes for self rescue from elevated places?

If not, then what are your reasons?

If so, how much rope should be required?

What should the minimum strenght of the rope be?

Would this adversely affect the cost of PPE to a point of diminishing return?

[SamsonFCDES]

I am of the opinion that there should be self rescue harnis/ropes built into all structure PPE.

The additional cost IMO is minimal compaired to the alternative. If it is made a standard feature then the cost will come into line eventualy.

Not sure what the best way to do it would be, probly the rope hidden in the coat, harnis buit into the pants. Are there any SCBA with escape gear built in?

Not sure what the industry standard is, its seems to me that enough rope for 5 stories would be a good starting point.

Minimum strenght should be about 600 lbs IMO, not that far out considering the super rope they have these days.

[Firescueguy]

While mandating self rescue gear be installed in all turn-out gear is a good idea in theory, it is just not feasible when you look at several factors...

1) Cost = in my area, money is not an issue...depts. will drop
$1,200 a set for Morning Pride gear so they can have the gear
that they want (bear in mind, it gets quite a workout so it's
worth the investment) but many FD's barely have enough money to
buy the basic, no frills bunker gear (no pants pockets, minimal
trim, etc.)...there are a tremendous amount of depts. in this
country that have outdated gear (hey, if it's all you got,
something is better than nothing) and there are those depts.,
particularly in rural areas (Samson FCDES you probably know a
few) that respond in street clothes which I think is appalling...
not that they have the dedication to respond even without proper
PPE, I'm appalled that this country (the richest in the world mind
you) cannot provide our first responders with proper protective
clothing yet the president nows wants 80 BILLION dollars more for
the war in Iraq...don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for supporting the
troops (our other 1st responders) but sending money over there so
we can feed Mohammed rice & beans is a waste of OUR tax dollars
that should be spent on OUR people here first.

2) Lack of training = while it would be great if every FF was well
trained in not only basic FF'ing but also self rescue, this
simply just isn't the case...I've been all over this country
and seen depts. that are progressive, well trained & know their
SH&* and then there are those that are, well "foundation savers".
I'm not picking on rural depts. with limited manpower/equipment
or extended response times - I'm talking about depts. big & small,
well equipped or not that just don't give a damn about training
whether it's the basics or advanced things like self rescue, RIT,
etc.

A key point here is RIT...since the whole RIT thing took off
within the last 2-3 years, how many depts. so you know that say
they have a RIT team but haven't done anything other than SAY they
have a RIT team? How many have actually gone through hands-on
training (I'm not talking a 3 hr. awareness lecture), trained on
SCBA changeover, large area search, FF removal techniques, etc.
How many of them just "show up with some rope & a few hooks" (an
actual quote to me from a local FF...his dept. has improved their
RIT team since a new chief took office)...

In a perfect world, every FF would be trained to the exact same
standards but in reality, this just isn't feasible so do we want
Joe Fireman who hasn't been to training in 6 months bailing out
an upper window with the rope the dept. stufed in his
gear 'cause it was NFPA mandated? The alternative isn't much
better I guess....

3) Practicality...is it REALLY necessary to have it mandated that
EVERY set of gear worn by FF's all over this country have self
rescue gear installed? While a FF in a metropolitan area would
probably use it at one point in their career simply due to call
volume, would a FF who volunteers in a farming community with
nothing but mobile homes & maybe a single two story building
in the whole town really need the means to bail-out 50'???
This added expense from the NFPA mandate might preclude smaller
depts. from buying new gear that they DESPARATELY need.

4) If you want to equip each FF with self rescue equipment, the more
practical, cost effective measure would be to equip each SCBA...
you may have a dept. (vol. or paid) that has 200 members...it's
not feasible to equip every FF but every SCBA is "doable"...the
rationale is if you are inside, you should have a pack on so
you'll have the self rescue gear with you.

I strongly believe there needs to be more of a push for FF survival/self rescue training in BASIC fire school...we need to teach FF's how to stay out of trouble so the need for RIT is diminished...FF'ing is a dangerous job, always will be so the need for RIT will always be there.

Lastly, I want to epxress my condolences to the FDNY brothers & their families...best wishes for a speedy recovery for those injured & a wish of peace for the fallen FF's and their families.

Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...

[sbfdco1]

I agree that all interior FFs should have some sort of bail out rope. I know there have been arguments that it is bulky, takes up space for other tools, etc. It would be great if all FF were given individual ropes, harness, and whatever else is needed by their departments. As for an OSHA standard, I need more time to think about that.

I know it cost me about $45 dollars for 30ft of 8mm rope, and two load bearing carabiners. Couple of canadian figure 8's on each end and I have a bail out rope/search rope. 30ft of rope works in my district(s), we don't have to many taxpayers above three stories.

[FFTide]

Rope should be part of almost any fire fighters gear even if it's only a 10-20 foot length. Every firefighter should know their basic 3 or 4 knots. If you had to make an emergency bail out tie off on something solid wrap the rope around you and lower yourself. As for a harness I just think it's just another thing to get in the way of effective firefighting. It really comes down to the area. If you are fighting 4-6 story structure fires, 20 foot of rope isn't going to help much, carry more. If your area is mostly 2 1/2 story homes 20 foot of rope will almost reach the ground.

So I guess I'm saying, required no, recommended yes.

~Jeff

[fireflymedic]

seems to me win anything new is MANDATED it will be very expensive (read cost inhibative) it should be made a option, I think MSA airpacks have a lower back piece on there PBA's that can cary a baile out rope. Let other co. compete or come up with better places for a rope. It should be more heat resentant rope than a certain amount of waite IMHO

[Dalmatian90]

Sad thing is, you'll find people who protect primarily trailers and ranch houses, who don't train or conduct aggressive searches without hoseline protection, and for that matter probably don't even have a real good concept of coordinated fire attack...

Who'll think they're safe 'cause they got the bailout harness on them.

Lot, lot more issues out there of far higher importance than this.

[fftrainer]

We've been kicking this around the station the last year or so and I think tonight I'm going there to take the bull by the horns and say lets stop forming commitees and talking and get the s%&t done.

Our RIT team currently has a setup for when the are on a job, but it is exactly that... for RIT calls only. The harnesses are put on over your gear as part of getting your equipment out when you go on scene.

We were talking about outfitting the SCBA certified guys with a bail-out setup but never took any action... time to change that. The good part for us is our response area demographics. We are more or less a bedroom community of 1 to 2.5 story single family dwellings/garden apartments and townhomes. So we are not faced with the 4 or 5 story bail like these poor guys in NY were faced with. We have a couple of 'low-rise' office buildings and any industry or other commercial structures we have are single story structures. The joys of being able to grow horizontally not just vertically like the cities.

Its tough to say if a standard should be created. I realize that in some places if you threaten non-compliance with a standard that's the only way the governing body will fund it, but on the other hand for every feature you add you drive up the price of gear... prices that are already too high for some of the rural, low budget departments in the country. At the same time, I realize that you can't put a price on your life and safety, but I think you know what I mean.

[Bones42]

I wear a Gemtor harness. I have a 35' length of webbing. Is it designed for this purpose? Nope. Does it work? Yup.

Almost all of our FF's are having Gemtor harnesses provided to them and the webbing. It's more designed for FAST applications, but can be used other ways.

Use your tools (including your head) and think outside the box.

[RyanEMVFD]

Putting harnesses in PPE can slow down putting them on. I'd much rather see them incorparated into SCBA packs. While back I ran a 10 foot piece of webbing through the frame on my scba and set it up to turn into a harness. Bail out kit fit on the waist strap and worked great for bail outs.

We all know how long it can take to get something set as a standard. Others will point out that comments, suggestions or ideas can be sent to the NFPA and they can be considered. This is an outlet for voicing your opinion.


But either way firefighters should have a bailout kit and harness available at all times.

[firenresq77]

We have bail out ropes on all of our SCBA. I believe they are 30'...... We've had them on there for a few years.

[Lewiston2FF]

All FFs that have completed the training in rope bailouts is given a 35' NFPA rated 8mm escape rope. The rope is stored in their gear wherever they see fit. We dont use harnesses, simply connect the rope to an anchor point inside the building, wrap around the waist, grab both the line to the anchor and the tail side of the line and out the window you go. Each set up costs about $35.

I believe in giving each person their own rope, since it is my life hanging off of it in the unfortunate event I have to use it, I like knowing how it was treated.

[SamsonFCDES]

So realy given some of the responces we are not talking huge dollar figures here.

Realisticly there could be a rope rescue system in place for <100$ for the basics.

I realy like the idea of haveing them on the SCBAs. At least if they were going to be high dollar.

I have seen some PPE with an extra pouch on the lower leg. That might be a good place to put a longer rope. Or I am sure there are dozens and doezens of options.

[FyredUp]

On my volly FD we haven't pursued this yet. Perhaps because we only have one structure over 2 stories. A good excuse? Probably not. Just the truth.

On my career FD every riding position is issued a Gut Belt and a rope bag with 25 feet of 8mm kevlar sheated nylon rope, 2 caribiners, and a figure 8. The thought process is even if you can't reach the ground from a taller building you can get to safe floor below with this much rope. Training is the issue. Initially we trained hard with this stuff but for me I haven't practised in about a year and a half and my confidence level is down.

Is a bail out device a good idea? Depends on your circumstances I guess. Mandated for each set of turn-out gear? Nope, don't think that including it in the turn-out gear itself is a good idea.

FyredUp

[CFD Hazards]

I think it all sounds great but my concern is the time it takes under perfect conditions to find and tie off to a substantial object, deploy the rope, wrap the carabiner and slide down. I know about the Halligan in the corner of the window but you had better practiced it before and keep a lot of tension on the rope while heading out. Now do it under rapidly deteriorating conditions, zero visibility and very high levels of stress. I don't think there is enough time for it all. No one goes to a fire knowing you will have to make an emergency escape. I carry rope for that reason but no harness. I will wrap the rope under my arms or the bottom of my foot for an emergency escape. The rope is already tied into a figure 8 at the top and into a carabiner. The plan is to take a few turns around the anchor and put the carabiner back on the rope. I have practiced it under non fire conditions just as I am sure everyone else has. Hope to never have to do it during a fire.

[Lewiston2FF]

Originally posted by cfdeng3
I think it all sounds great but my concern is the time it takes under perfect conditions to find and tie off to a substantial object, deploy the rope, wrap the carabiner and slide down. I know about the Halligan in the corner of the window but you had better practiced it before and keep a lot of tension on the rope while heading out. Now do it under rapidly deteriorating conditions, zero visibility and very high levels of stress. I don't think there is enough time for it all. No one goes to a fire knowing you will have to make an emergency escape. I carry rope for that reason but no harness. I will wrap the rope under my arms or the bottom of my foot for an emergency escape. The rope is already tied into a figure 8 at the top and into a carabiner. The plan is to take a few turns around the anchor and put the carabiner back on the rope. I have practiced it under non fire conditions just as I am sure everyone else has. Hope to never have to do it during a fire.

This is my plan too. I have been timed at using the halligan, and am able to get it done in 10 seconds. That isnt under fire conditions, but it did involve some instructors attempting to make it stressful.
I would rather have the option when the brown stuff starts flying, than be stuck, or have to jump.

[SamsonFCDES]

Thats hits it right on the head. The self rescue rope would not be inteded to let you push into places you shouldnt go or as a often used option.

But if you need it its there, like a PASS device or what have you. Just another pieces of safety gear.

It should be cheap enough to have a quality unit.

Wheater it needs to be in the PPE/SCBA I guess realy doesnt matter.

Maybe the best option is just to make sure everybody had one which ever way works.

[mcaldwell]

We have been shopping around for new SCBA, and I see that most manufacturers now have rated waist belts available as an option that can be used to self-evac. Most have a steel ring or other connection point on the harness, and one even had the 8mm rope hidden in the waist belt.

It looked like a great system, and while we didn't budget for it during the initial purchase, I think it will be an upgrade for next year.

I also think it would be valuable as an NFPA standard. It is not the end-all and be-all, but why put the RIT in jeopardy in circumstances where it would be possible and safer for the FF to self-evac. Again, one more tool in the box.

[scottab96]

Anyone see these in action, or use one ever?

http://www.ritrescuesystems.com/cont...ns.asp?topic=1

Seems like a simple solution to the escape belt question (besides the additional cost). If you use the SCBA option, you will always have one one your person, and it doesn't look like it is too bulky, or adds alot to your profile....

[DennisTheMenace]

Do you really need a harness if you are bailing out? The plan is to get the heck out of there, not stop on the way and do anything, so why not just carry rope and fast rope down military style? If you are fifty feet up and have only twentyfive feet you are not going to be happy, but atleast it is something.