Thread: Over the top?

  1. #1
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    Default Over the top?

    On our T.V.(New Zealand) last night and reported in the USA papers--a US citizen trying to surrender to the police was shot 80--yes 80 times- with "pepper spray" rounds.
    This whole episode was taped by one of your News-group-- and broadcast to the world.

    I know that any publicity is supposed to be good publicity--but don't you think this is slightly O.T.T.?

    Your views and reaction would be apreciated.
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    I saw it on TV. It appears that he was not obeying the instructions to get on the ground...(appeared to refuse). He was a big guy and the rounds seemed to have no effect on him... Was 80 a bit much?....perhaps so...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Wow........ I'd like to see a video of that. I saw the one on here with the Ohio State Trooper using the tazer on a guy at least 5 times, but I'd like to see this one too.
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    Smile

    Saw that on the tube the other nihgt. If the guy had got down like he was told to do, I don't think that the guys would have shot him that many times. He did have his shirt off and it looked like he had been with a wild woman who was into giving hickeys!!!!!

    Or he had had a close relationship with a vacuum cleaner hose!!!!!

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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    ..........
    Last edited by StLRes2cue; 11-16-2005 at 10:05 PM.

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    He's still alive ain't he....it could have been 80 rounds of lead....if he didn't want to comply and it took 80 pepper balls...so what....he eventually complied right? Like I said...it could have well been 80 bullets.
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    Question

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by StLRes2cue
    [B]Ok, before I go on my rant about this, I think that any time that the cops shoot at a subject and drop him, then reload and start shooting again (like an incident in NYC) then it is over the top...

    I agree with the rest of your post (I justed completed 20 plus years with NYPD) but what incident are you refering to....if it was the Diallo shooting no one reloaded
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    Thumbs up Here is another good one!

    St. Petersburg Time

    Fatal confrontation begins with laser light
    Pinellas deputies went to see who was shining a laser beam at them, and ended up shooting a suspect to death.
    By TOM ZUCCO, Times Staff Writer
    Published February 5, 2005

    PINELLAS PARK - As Pinellas County sheriff's deputies gathered in a Winn-Dixie parking lot early Friday to work on a case, they saw a red dot dancing across their cruisers.

    Concerned they were being targeted by a laser-sighted weapon, a deputy trained a spotlight on a second-floor window at the adjacent Boardwalk Apartments, and the laser stopped. Then the beam appeared again, this time focusing on the deputies' bodies and tracking them as they walked.

    Deputies drove to the apartments to investigate. Within minutes, the man they say pointed the laser was dead.

    Authorities said the deputies wound up in a confrontation with Thomas D. Setzer in the door of his apartment. They said one deputy fired a shotgun blast after Setzer, who authorities thought might be armed, refused to show his hands and made a sudden movement.

    "We still don't know why he (Setzer) pointed the laser at the deputies," said sheriff's spokeswoman Marianne Pasha. "But the deputies went there not knowing if someone was aiming a gun at them or not."

    Setzer, 24, was pronounced dead at St. Petersburg General Hospital.

    The incident unfolded in an apartment complex at 6411 102nd Ave. N where most people keep to themselves.

    Kelly Ferlanie, who lives across the hall from Setzer, awoke a little after 2 a.m. to the sound of the telephone. A man who said he was a police officer asked her and anyone else who lived in her unit to remain inside.

    A short time later, Amy Davenport awoke to the sound of automobiles. She looked outside her apartment in time to see two squad cars pull up to the building across the parking lot. Davenport woke her husband, and they watched as a deputy armed with what they thought was a shotgun took up a position just inside the front door of the building.

    Pasha said deputies knocked on the door of Apartment C, identified themselves, and heard a man and a woman arguing. No one answered. They then heard the man say he was "going to get a gun."

    The deputies went down the stairs and began to remove other residents from the building. They returned upstairs a second time and knocked on the door again. This time, Pasha said, Deputy Ryan E. Buckley said he heard a man say, "I'm going to blow somebody's head off."

    "I heard him say he knew what cops are all about, how they are, and then some cussing," said Ferlanie, 25, who added that Setzer and his girlfriend had lived across the hall for about two months. "He said he wasn't coming down because he knew what they would do."

    Moments later, Pasha said, the door to Apartment C opened and Cheri Benz, Setzer's girlfriend, and her 9-year-old daughter ran out. Benz, 29, and her daughter, who is not related to Setzer, where taken to a patrol car. Benz told deputies Setzer had guns in the apartment, and that the couple's 2-year-old daughter was still inside.

    "Now they have information about guns and the laser, a child in the apartment, and they've heard Setzer say he going to get a gun and blow someone's head off," Pasha said.

    Deputies tried again to make contact, calling to Setzer to come out. He did.

    According to Pasha, Buckley, 32, ordered Setzer, who was standing by his front door, to show his hands. Buckley, a nine-year veteran of the force, could see Setzer's left hand, but his right hand was concealed in the doorway. After several more commands to show his hands, Setzer said, "You're not going to get her" and turned suddenly.

    It was then that Buckley fired his shotgun, striking Setzer in the upper chest.

    Deputies did not find a gun or a laser on or near Setzer's body. They said an inspection of the apartment found three handguns, including a loaded semiautomatic in a drawer about 8 feet from the door. Police also found three devices that shoot a laser beam, including one that can be mounted on a gun.

    The Sheriff's Office Crimes Against Persons unit, the agency's Internal Affairs unit and the Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney's Office are investigating the shooting. Buckley has been placed on paid administrative leave.

    Pasha said Buckley has never been involved in a shooting until Friday, and has numerous commendations in his personnel file. He has had one complaint that led to a review by the department's internal affairs unit. In May 2003, Buckley was investigated for use of force during an arrest and was exonerated, Pasha said. His file was unavailable for review by the Times Friday because it was being used in the investigation, Pasha said.

    Gary Setzer, 49, said his son, who grew up in Virginia, was a loving father who helped him with his New Port Richey construction business.

    "I tried to see it from the deputies' point and his point," Setzer said. "They kept asking him to show his hands. He refused. They said he had a gun and was going to shoot somebody. They felt threatened.

    "But the nearest gun was 8 feet away. He had no gun next to him or on him. I asked why did they have to kill him? Why not shoot him in the leg? They (deputies) told me they're not trained that way."

    Thomas Setzer has a criminal record that includes arrests for aggravated assault and carrying a concealed weapon. In both cases, adjudication of guilt was withheld by a judge.

    Gary Setzer said that although his son had a temper, "he never followed through with anything. He was a 130-pound kid whose mom died when he was 7. Now he's leaving a little girl with no dad.

    "And it started as a simple laser deal.

    "If he would've just stopped."
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    This sounds like another "suicide by cop" case.

    The deputies were justified in their actions.
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    Two points:

    1. Most statutes do not allow "shooting him in the leg". Firing a handgun is deadly force and you shoot to kill, not maim.

    2. This is a (IMHO) 100% justified shooting. The article is self-explanatory. Unless you have been in a tactical situation, with a gun pointed at someone's milk bottle, you have no idea the emotions or the stress going through your mind. It is a split second decision that is based on the officer's knowledge of the totality of the circumstances. In this case, they had way more intelligence than most MOS do when they are involved in a shooting. And all of this intelligence said he is ready, willing and able to kill some cops.

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    As far as the first story is concerned, it sounds like the police in that case just need to buy better CS rounds. I'm all in favor of "copious" amounts of non-leathal tactics. Bad guy in jail, cops go home at the end of the shift.

    Second story, I would have shot him too. Center mass is a better target than a foot.
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    As far as the 80 rounds of pepper spray...I am willing to bet the suspect's friends and family are grateful the cops didn't resort to shooting him with their real guns. It's really simple, obey the commands of the officers or risk escalating force to be subdued.

    As far as the guy with the laser light. Too bad he is dead. BUT...again, why did he shine the laser on the cops? Not just once but several times. Why didn't he comply to show his hands and surrender? Why did he make violent threats? Why did he make a quick movement with the officer having his shotgun trained on him?

    As far as shooting to wound, if I ever feel threatened enough to shoot someone my thought process will be to make sure they don't continue to threaten me. In other words, center mass shots as many as it takes to stop them. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that is the way it is.

    FyredUp

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    Let me begin with two words: "Rodney King"

    After that fiasco, the police are even more prone to do whatever they can to not get close enough to an offender to where a physical altercation could occur. I still believe that if the LAPD had just shot King when he continued to reach into his waistband (where he was suspected to be concealing a handgun), 50 some rioters would still be alive today. But, I wasn't there, so I can't say what I would have done.

    As for the pepper balls. These were like paint gun balls that actually contain pepper powder, not the liguid. The paint ball type gun that fires these shoots in "bursts" of several rounds, so you can launch 80 is pretty short order. Given the size of the offender and his reluctance to comply with the police orders, I would say that the police exercised extreme patience. Failure to comply to the chemical weapon is justification to move up the ladder in the degree of force that the police were justified in using. Instead of resorting to batons some other impact weapon, they waited the offender out and he will have very little evidence on his body to show for it in a few days. Much better than broken bones or worse I would say.

    On to the topic of shooting to kill or shooting to wound. As was pointed out, when you fire a bullet at someone, it has the potential to kill them. No matter what you aim for, you are using "deadly force" when you pull that trigger. The police are not trained to "shoot to kill" or to "shoot to wound"... they are taught to "Shoot to stop" the threat that they are faced with. The end result, be it death or injury, is not a concern at that point. The only goal the police officer has is to neutralize the threat so that it no longer exists.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

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