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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default All About Pumper Tankers...

    I need to learn about pumper tankers, never been around one but they seem like a good idea for rural VFDs.

    At what point does a pumper become a pumper/tanker?

    What are these things going to cost:

    Brand new from say Pierce/Whoever?

    Rufurbished like a Foam Dragon?

    Just how good are they at the tanker part, we would have a lot of use for one as a water shuttle for wildland fires. Are they comparable to a regular tanker/tender?

    How big is the typeical pumper tanker pump/tank?

    Weight is not a problem in our area, we have 4500 gallon tenders operating as we speak. Also we have lots of room to maneuver.

    Are there any builders with an outstanding pumper/tanker design?

    We are looking for a apparatus that can excell in fire attack with the tanker role being a bit secondary.

    Does it need to carry its own drop tank?

    Any and all thoughts are welcome.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  2. #2
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Default Well..............

    As an old country boy, I've been around a few Tanker-Pumpers, Pumper-Tankers, Engine-Tankers, or whatever you want to call them. The area East of us (Next County) has about 6-8 of them. They seem to work well with the following in mind.

    1. Don't cut corners on ANYTHING. Big Motor, Big Transmission, Tandem Axles, etc. Create a vehicle that will carry 60 Tons, Then load it to 30. You will have that reserve capacity which is important in this business.

    2. For the Tanker Part, Have large capacity dumps on both sides and the rear. No point in hauling water if you can't unload it QUICKLY.

    3. ABSOLUTELY Carry a Drop Tank. Carrying 2 is even better. Your Drop Tanks should be larger than your truck tank. Truck has a 2,500 gal tank, carry a 3,000 gal drop tank.

    4. With the need to carry all the Hose and Equipment that an Engine carries, you need cabinet space, have plenty. The Max on Tank size should be 2,500 Gallons.

    Lets put the shoe on the other foot:

    1. For the Engine part, 1,250 Pump at least. Your pump should be half your tank capacity.

    2. A Generator of at least 5 Kw for Lights and Electric Tools.

    3. Don't forget the Hair Dryers.......
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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  3. #3
    Forum Member StayBack500FT's Avatar
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    Default

    Our old engine was considered a pumper/tanker by many. It was a 1974 Ward LaFrance with a 1,250 GPM pump and it carried 1,500 gallons of water. It did not have a drop tank...it was outfitted as any typical first due engine would be, except it had tandem axles. The school of thought was to carry decent water to our outlying areas...something that could hold down the fort until the tanker shuttle could be set up. It worked well for us, but it liked to eat tires (tandems).

    As a tanker...well it hauled 1,500 gallons. That is good by some standards, not so good by others. Our tanker hauls 3,500...so it's is viewed as a "smallish" tanker for our area.

    Our old website (if it still works) has pics of both vehicles or you could check out my photo gallery at www.iacoj.com.

    www.toolcity.net/~svfc/

    Hope that helps.
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  4. #4
    Forum Member StayBack500FT's Avatar
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    This should take you right to it.

    http://users.stargate.net/~svfc/engine1.htm
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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    Step one - What do you want the truck to do? Do you need a combination?

    I for one am of the opinion if you want a Tender - you buy a tender! If you need a pump you buy a pump. If you run lines and start fighting fire your truck has effectivly become a pump - wich in the country is going to be supplied by what - thats right - a tender! So what is the point of tying up a tender?

    Who designs tanks - question is who doesnt. Ask for quotes from everyone. It is more of a preference of Chassis and motor type.

  6. #6
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking Hey Dave..................

    Reference to your remarks, We beat that horse to death about 15-20 years ago, here in Maryland. Point was, If you are only going to get one piece out quick, and the additional stuff will be delayed, then you should have an Engine that carries lots of Water. Using your best shot, you can: A. Get a quick knockdown. B. Make a Rescue SAFELY, with a covering line that has an adequate supply. C. Cover an Exposure. And the list goes on........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  7. #7
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    I have to agree with my esteem colleague from Maryland. Buy the rig that will carry the load. DO NOT under power the truck.

    If you plan on carrying 30 tons, then by all means get a truck that will do this and still give you the oomph to last for 20 years and still be able to do everything that you always wanted a tanker/pumper to do.

    Tenders are just that. Listen to the ones who have been that route and will never again do that. So if the tender gets on the scene first and no pump, what you going to do? Fill buckets to throw at the fire?

    Harve Woods has made some very good points in his postings. Adhere to them.

    Take a look at Pierce's web site as a starter. www.piercemfg.com


    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well..............

    Originally posted by hwoods
    As an old country boy, I've been around a few Tanker-Pumpers, Pumper-Tankers, Engine-Tankers, or whatever you want to call them. The area East of us (Next County) has about 6-8 of them. They seem to work well with the following in mind.

    1. Don't cut corners on ANYTHING. Big Motor, Big Transmission, Tandem Axles, etc. Create a vehicle that will carry 60 Tons, Then load it to 30. You will have that reserve capacity which is important in this business.


    Copy that, Wilco!!!

    2. For the Tanker Part, Have large capacity dumps on both sides and the rear. No point in hauling water if you can't unload it QUICKLY.
    Are the automatic dumps worth the extra money. They seem like they would be a nice safety feature.

    3. ABSOLUTELY Carry a Drop Tank. Carrying 2 is even better. Your Drop Tanks should be larger than your truck tank. Truck has a 2,500 gal tank, carry a 3,000 gal drop tank.
    Tank is likely to be 2500, so a 3000 gallon tank it is.

    4. With the need to carry all the Hose and Equipment that an Engine carries, you need cabinet space, have plenty. The Max on Tank size should be 2,500 Gallons.
    Copy that as well.

    Lets put the shoe on the other foot:

    1. For the Engine part, 1,250 Pump at least. Your pump should be half your tank capacity.

    2. A Generator of at least 5 Kw for Lights and Electric Tools.

    3. Don't forget the Hair Dryers.......
    Noted. I think the District board said they wanted a 10kw generator so that should be more then enough capacity.

    3 reminds me...

    What small features (coffe pot, what have you, anything) would you include on your next apparatus, stuff you just cant live without.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by StayBack500FT
    This should take you right to it.

    http://users.stargate.net/~svfc/engine1.htm
    Thanks for the info, I will check it out.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dave404
    Step one - What do you want the truck to do? Do you need a combination?

    I for one am of the opinion if you want a Tender - you buy a tender! If you need a pump you buy a pump. If you run lines and start fighting fire your truck has effectivly become a pump - wich in the country is going to be supplied by what - thats right - a tender! So what is the point of tying up a tender?

    Who designs tanks - question is who doesnt. Ask for quotes from everyone. It is more of a preference of Chassis and motor type.
    This other thread may explain a bit better.

    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=66112

    I am working on a grant for a rural VFD to get a pumper tanker in 05.

    The have a 1000/1000 1980 pierce that has seen better days. They also operate 2 4500 Gallon Tenders and have 3 more on mutual aid within 30 minutes.

    They need to replace the pumper. They want a pumper tanker for a few reasons:

    1 It can double as a water shuttle unit for wildland fires and on mutual aid. We have major water supply issues around here, Zero, repeat, Zero hydrants. Everything has to be hauled in.

    2 The 1000 gallons on the pumper is marginal at most fires. Its sometimes just enough to get knockdown, but not kncokout if you know what I mean. No worse feeling then sitting there after you hit a fiew with your 1000 waiting for the tender to get there and get the water flowing again. With 2500 and a good foam system (CAFS is still possible at this time) you have a lot more room for error and a much greater safety margin.

    The first 5 guys and getting the pumper/tanker out the door is not a problem and usualy happens in <1 minute because there are 6 guys that live on the same block as the fire hall. Its getting the tender/second out that can take a little to long. That leaves the pumper 1000/1000 a few gallons short uaualy. We have been lucky, but that is not something I want to bank on.

    I would feel much better with 2500 first due.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  11. #11
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    If you can get your hands on a 2005 American LaFrance calander, the Dec.,05 photo is Fairbanks Alaska 2500 pumper tanker. Sweet truck as I saw it when it was being built.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CaptOldTimer
    I have to agree with my esteem colleague from Maryland. Buy the rig that will carry the load. DO NOT under power the truck.

    If you plan on carrying 30 tons, then by all means get a truck that will do this and still give you the oomph to last for 20 years and still be able to do everything that you always wanted a tanker/pumper to do.

    Tenders are just that. Listen to the ones who have been that route and will never again do that. So if the tender gets on the scene first and no pump, what you going to do? Fill buckets to throw at the fire?

    Harve Woods has made some very good points in his postings. Adhere to them.

    Take a look at Pierce's web site as a starter. www.piercemfg.com


    Words to live by here.

    This is one of the specific units they are looking at.

    http://www.advantageapparatus.com/

    The Foam Dragon. It has all of the features they are looking for and the price from what I can gather is fairly reasonable.

    Somewhere around 250,000$ fully equiped last I checked.

    Here is a fine example:



    2004/88 Advantage Foam Dragon
    Built on Seagrave chassis. Rebuilt 425 hp Caterpillar 3406 engine, rebuilt Allison HT-740 automatic transmission, rebuilt 1500 gpm Waterous pump, new FRC EDGE pressure governor, new FoamPro 2002 push-button Class A&B foam system, refurbished cab, new extruded aluminum body, new 2500 gallon polypropylene water tank and new 10" Newton dump.


    I would like to have side dumps on both sides, a 10 kw gen, lots of flood lights, maybe a small cascade system, I would realy like a FLIR like the one Bendix King makes...

    Everything except the FLIR is not out of reason I would guess.

    Any idea what a similar apparatus woudl cost NEW from one of the main stream builders?
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  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by waterboy1
    If you can get your hands on a 2005 American LaFrance calander, the Dec.,05 photo is Fairbanks Alaska 2500 pumper tanker. Sweet truck as I saw it when it was being built.
    I will see if I can find a "recent delivery pic" or some thing.

    Any idea what the specs were or...

    How much it cost?

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  14. #14
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    Sounds like your lookin for a Minot Rural special (neighboring depts newest rig) 2001 ALF Eagle pumper. The ALF dealer was trying to sell everyone who walked by his booth one of these at the state fire school a couple years ago. Check it out on there site www.minotrural.org/apparatus.html I believe this one is 2000gallons of water with a 1250 pump.

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    First of all any truck that has a 1000 gallon tank and a quick dump is by defination a pumper-tanker.

    We operate 2 pumper-tankers, however ours have commercial 2 door chassis and are intended as water supply units, not fire attack. They do carry SCBA, tools, a fan, spare bottles, attack & supply lines etc. and can function as attack units if needed, but that is not thier intended purpose. One has a 750 GPM pump, the other has a 1000 GPM. Again, as tankers they would drop thier water via dumps, so the big pump was not a requirement. One carries a pond, the other does not.
    Sampson ... is this going to be a first-due attack piece or a support unit ?

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LaFireEducator
    First of all any truck that has a 1000 gallon tank and a quick dump is by defination a pumper-tanker.


    So is it the 1000+ gallons that is a tanker tank size?

    We operate 2 pumper-tankers, however ours have commercial 2 door chassis and are intended as water supply units, not fire attack. They do carry SCBA, tools, a fan, spare bottles, attack & supply lines etc. and can function as attack units if needed, but that is not thier intended purpose. One has a 750 GPM pump, the other has a 1000 GPM. Again, as tankers they would drop thier water via dumps, so the big pump was not a requirement. One carries a pond, the other does not.
    Sampson ... is this going to be a first-due attack piece or a support unit ?
    Yes, it will be the first out attack piece for all structure/vehicle fires. It would be a support unit for wildland fires.
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  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by firefighterbeau
    Sounds like your lookin for a Minot Rural special (neighboring depts newest rig) 2001 ALF Eagle pumper. The ALF dealer was trying to sell everyone who walked by his booth one of these at the state fire school a couple years ago. Check it out on there site www.minotrural.org/apparatus.html I believe this one is 2000gallons of water with a 1250 pump.
    That is a bueaty!!!

    I would take one of those if they twisted my arm...

    Any idea on the cost/specs?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  18. #18
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Re: Well..............

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES


    3 reminds me...

    What small features (coffe pot, what have you, anything) would you include on your next apparatus, stuff you just cant live without. [/B]
    5 Gal. Water cooler, with just water. Powdered sport drink mix. Coffee maker (12 Cup household style works good) Styrofoam Cups (Same cup for hot or cold) The Hair Dryer is for folks who have ice to worry about each winter, a 1500w Hair dryer thaws a lot of couplings without damaging the hose, I've used one to thaw frozen snaps and zippers on gear, and other stuff. And, don't forget the microwave.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

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  19. #19
    Forum Member Rescue2947's Avatar
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    Default Re: All About Pumper Tankers...

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    I need to learn about pumper tankers, never been around one but they seem like a good idea for rural VFDs.

    At what point does a pumper become a pumper/tanker?

    What are these things going to cost:

    Brand new from say Pierce/Whoever?

    Rufurbished like a Foam Dragon?

    Just how good are they at the tanker part, we would have a lot of use for one as a water shuttle for wildland fires. Are they comparable to a regular tanker/tender?

    How big is the typeical pumper tanker pump/tank?

    Weight is not a problem in our area, we have 4500 gallon tenders operating as we speak. Also we have lots of room to maneuver.

    Are there any builders with an outstanding pumper/tanker design?

    We are looking for a apparatus that can excell in fire attack with the tanker role being a bit secondary.

    Does it need to carry its own drop tank?

    Any and all thoughts are welcome.
    We have a Pumper/Tanker for one of our apparatus in our district and it is very adaptive. We purchased a top mount pump as all our engines are. The main thing that helped us was its considered a Class A Pumper.

    To anwser a few of your questions I think anything over 1,000 gallons can be considered a pumper/tanker. Ours is 1500 gallon and its made by Marion.

    The cost of our pumper/tanker was around 250,000 to 300,000 dollars. shuttling war part is good we have mostly pavment roads we dont take ours off road much because they seem to be bigger and heavier than most engines, or tankers.

    Our unit is all enclosed, by this i mean the porta tank and all tools are in apparatus doors and can be removed pretty easy if i get time i will upload a picture of it.

    The unit is nice in my area where we are mostly hydrants but occasionaly need that extra amount of water that we can shuttle water if needed. The only real draw back about our pumper/tanker is it is big almost the size of our 75 foot E-One Arial truck. So at times it makes it hard to move around, but makes for a nice class A at industrial fire's.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Well..............

    Originally posted by hwoods


    5 Gal. Water cooler, with just water. Powdered sport drink mix. Coffee maker (12 Cup household style works good) Styrofoam Cups (Same cup for hot or cold) The Hair Dryer is for folks who have ice to worry about each winter, a 1500w Hair dryer thaws a lot of couplings without damaging the hose, I've used one to thaw frozen snaps and zippers on gear, and other stuff. And, don't forget the microwave.
    All excellent ideas!!!

    I figured the hair dryer was for something like that. We use the heat chem packs once in a while.

    How about other stuff?

    Anything worth puttting on the front bumper?

    Are remote control monitor guns worth it? So nobody has to crawl on top of the appratus.

    Has anybody here ever used a FLIR? A truck mounted thermal imager? Some models are <2500$ or so and might come in realy handy in size up and such. Also something to think about with S&R and looking for victims/trouble at MVAs.

    What ladder load out would you reccomend for a primarily 2 story or less community? Is it good to load up on certain types?

    Folda tank or pumpking/self sustaining tank?

    Are those automatic chain things woth it for ice/snow?

    What would you suggest as the minimum number of discharges/types/locations?

    Anything else that comes to mind would be greatly appreciated!!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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