1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    jfTL41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    573

    Default Bunker Gear Drama @ FDNY

    Below is a link to an article. Basically the UFA wants project fire and project hero bunker gear (apparently only made by Morning Pride (sold by $$$Total Fire$$$) As opposed to the new design from globe and some other manufacturers who would like to outfit NYC. The other Gear is all NFPA compliant but not project fire or project hero. Does anyone know what the deal is with these "projects." Something $mells fi$hy here.


    http://ufalocal94.org/news_stories/n..._01_30_05.html

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    I smell nothing fishy here...

    If Lion and Globe want to bid on the FDNY gear contract, then they can and should make the gear complinat to the three standards set forth by the FDNY.

    It's like an apparatus manufacturer saying "we can't build a rig to your standards, but we can come close, is that good enough?"
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #3
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,643

    Default

    Morning Pride gear is great and we are happy with there gear. We don't need low bid gear. We need the best thats out there.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    StLRes2cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    ..........
    Posts
    407

    Default

    Originally posted by E40FDNYL35
    We need the best thats out there.
    Preach on Rev. E40....

    How many times are big city departments going to CONTINUOUSLY screw with those of us on the front lines, to save a few tousand dollars that will end up going to some frivilous project.

    I agree with my Brother from the Northwest. We're out there in the gear everyday in tight situations. Put us in quality stuff that we Trust!

    Can I get an Amen?

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    and how do you know globe or lion isn't better gear, unless you give them the oppertunity to fairly compete?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,524

    Default

    If I remember correctly, Jainsville aka Lion Apparel was one of the lead manufacturers behind Project FIRES so they have ample oppurtunity to be compliant now.

    We wear Morning Pride in Memphis. Every contract we invite other manufacturers to supply sets to be field evaluated. Many do not want to participate. The ones that have supplied test sets have not been able to supply gear that has been as comfortable or been able to do as well in various field tests.

    We think its the best and so far have been able to stay in it.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SteveDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    1,254

    Default

    WE tried just about everything in London during 96/97...finally ending up with a 'lease' contract with Lion in 1998.

    WE have to change again next year...if the City go with Lion, you could end up looking like this!!!!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Steve Dude
    IACOJ member
    www.fireservice.co.uk

    London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Originally posted by SteveDude
    WE tried just about everything in London during 96/97...finally ending up with a 'lease' contract with Lion in 1998.

    WE have to change again next year...if the City go with Lion, you could end up looking like this!!!!
    Hey Steve, how come you guys wear motorcycle helmets


    Seriously, how do you like them? The Chief at my last department wanted to try them, but over here they are expensive.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  9. #9
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,643

    Default

    February 1, 2005 -- City fire officials are taking another look at whether some firefighters should carry ropes, after two firefighters leaped to their death last week in the Bronx.

    But what else do they already have in their arsenal?

    The fire service has developed an array of equipment to protect firefighters, whether rushing into a burning building or wrestling with powerful equipment outside. The value of every tool is carefully scrutinized for durability versus weight; everyday use versus something reserved for a jam.

    One of its biggest advances in recent years has been bunker gear.

    In the 1960s, firefighters typically wore jeans under long simple coats made of canvas or rubber. When it got wet, the canvas would get as stiff as a board. Today, they wear high-tech flame-retardant clothing made of materials like Kevlar, which is designed to protect firefighters for short periods in intense heat.

    Since the bunker gear was introduced in 1994, burn injuries have been dramatically reduced, fire officials said.

    As for the ropes, historically firefighters didn't always carry safety rope. Ropes actually came into wide use in the fire service only since the mid-1980s fueled by technological advances in synthetic rope made by the mountain climbing industry.

    The deaths of two New York City firefighters when a rope snapped during a fire in the early 1980s led to the creation of the first national standard for safety ropes, said Glenn Corbett, a professor of fire science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

    "The whole national shift away from old rope to synthetic all changed with that one incident in New York," he said.

    But, citing bulk, the department removed a ropes/harness combo from standard use in 2000, keeping only the harness.

    Given the small amount of time available to the firefighters last Sunday, it is at best speculative to suggest that one piece of equipment or another would have made a difference. On the other hand, two firefighters who lived did use a rope to lower themselves some of the way before they fell.

    Now the city will consider whether to re-introduce the ropes, including adding a pocket to the bunker jacket that might ease bulk problems.

    Firefighters also used to train long and hard in the use of scaling ladders. A firefighter used a scaling ladder, also known as a Pompier Ladder, by hooking it between stories and allowing firefighters to climb between floors. In the academy, proving your ability with the ladders was once considered a rite of passage. But the ladders were phased out in the mid-1990s.

    Firefighters can also use items called aerial ladders, which are mounted on the back of fire trucks and powered with hydraulics. For back sections of buildings, which are too difficult to reach, they could use portable extension ladders, which range in length from 10-feet to 35-feet.

    In addition to the bunker gear, radio, known as a handy-talkie, helmet, gloves, mask and hood, firefighters often carry spare hose nozzles, a wood chock to keep doors open and long pike-like multi-use tools to open blocked paths.

    Who gets what depends on the assigned jobs.

    ROPE & HARNESS After last week's deaths, fire officials are considering re-introducing synthetic safety ropes and harnesses, first used in the mid-1980s and discontinued in 2000.

    ENGINE COMPANIES Firefighters from these units are responsible for putting out the fires. Engine units have comparable equipment to ladder companies, except they carry water hoses. The firefighter in the above photo has a detachable nozzle hooked to his right hip.

    LADDER COMPANIES These firefighters dash into buildings, conduct search-and-rescues, and vent structures. The firefighters who died in last week's blazes in the Bronx and Brooklyn were from Ladder units.Fire-resistant hood, worn over the breathing mask and under the helmet.Handie-talkie, slung over the shoulder for easy reach, is used for radio communications.Flashlight, department issue, known as a Garrity light.Self-contained breathing apparatus consists of a mask, gauge and tank. Tank contains compressed room air: 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, plus 1% other gases. Tank air is rated to last 45 minutes, but not recommended for beyond 30 minutes.Search-and-rescue tools include a "rabbit," a long, slender metal bar used to pry open windows, doors and gates. The rabbit clips to an ax for easy carrying.Bunker coat and pants are fire retardant and have reflective material for visibility. Name on bunker coat makes firefighter identifiable to colleagues while in full gear.Gauge monitors air level of tank worn on back. System emits shrill sound if firefighter does not move for 15 seconds.Gear's total weight:100 pounds
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    StLRes2cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    ..........
    Posts
    407

    Default

    Originally posted by E40FDNYL35
    Firefighters also used to train long and hard in the use of scaling ladders. A firefighter used a scaling ladder, also known as a Pompier Ladder, by hooking it between stories and allowing firefighters to climb between floors. In the academy, proving your ability with the ladders was once considered a rite of passage. But the ladders were phased out in the mid-1990s.
    So E40, Is there actually talk of bringing Pompier training back to the academy and back on the line?

  11. #11
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,643

    Default

    Originally posted by StLRes2cue
    So E40, Is there actually talk of bringing Pompier training back to the academy and back on the line?
    Yes...
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    I dont know about Lion, but Globe is good stuff and definately not "cheap".
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    SpartanGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    489

    Default

    Pompier ladders! We actually still have one on our rescue. Very interesting piece of equipment. I don't know how willing I'd be to use one far up on the building.....


    And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens. Everything else directly ties in to your life safety. I'd rather be a member of a broke-@$$ department with quality equipment than one that is penny wise but dollar stupid, so to speak.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Originally posted by SpartanGuy



    And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens. Everything else directly ties in to your life safety. I'd rather be a member of a broke-@$$ department with quality equipment than one that is penny wise but dollar stupid, so to speak.
    True, BUT ....price does not make quality, the design and manufacturing does. Picking the most expensive item off the shelf, can be as stupid or worse then those that try and save money by picking the least expensive item off the shelf based only on price tag.

    I want to provide the taxpayers with both quality service, which means firefighters that are safe enough and come back the next shift, and the most bang for their buck, because it is my life out there and my tax dollars too.

    Now if the go cheap to save bucks so that the chief can get a new mahogany conference table rather then getting the best deal on great gear, then there is a serious problem with priorities.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    cdemarse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    493

    Default

    Originally posted by SpartanGuy

    And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens.
    ahh yes you and I wouldnt but the people paying the bill most likely will never touch it let alone wear it. If it meets code thats all the matters to them.

    and i personaly believe morning pride is the best gear you can buy.
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
    Always Remember *343*

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Originally posted by SpartanGuy
    And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens.
    so explain to my why so many departments are no longer issuing leather helmets, and going to either salad bowls or traditional style plastic helmets. last i heard, it was due to the plastics being as good for 1/3 of the price of a leather.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Lightbulb short term cost vs. long term cost

    so explain to my why so many departments are no longer issuing leather helmets, and going to either salad bowls or traditional style plastic helmets. last i heard, it was due to the plastics being as good for 1/3 of the price of a leather.
    It is because everything in city government is based on short term savings. Elected officals have to show a savings in the short term so they can show how they balanced a budget and slashed spending etc...for their next campaign. It doesn't matter that the actual cost will be more over the career of any specific firefirefighter. Most Mayoral administrations don't last that long. So they don't care if they have to replace a helmet 3 or 4 times during a members career, not to mention the number of times it takes to repair other issues on the lid. Those are long term or hidden costs that don't translate well to pamplets exectutive summaries on how the FD budget was trimmed. Most retired guys I know went through 1 or 2 lids depending on how much work they saw. You should see some of the plasitc lids in my house with only 1,2 or3 years use. many things falling off.. loose components. Fitting isn't as tight as the leathers. And the front piece is a cheaper version with less strength. The finial can very easily catch on debris and be hard to remove as I have discussed on here before.

    For the FDNY specificly the reason they started issuing those lousy plastic lids was a contract for a single source supplier for bunker gear. Which meant they wanted one vendor for turnout gear. It just so happens Total Fire Group sold those Ben IIs. If they sold Cairns products we would have stayed with them. Rememeber it was very costly for the FDNY to outfit all 11,000 firefighters with Bunkergear, so they were looking to trim costs everywhere they could. Helmets was one place they felt they could go cheap.

    FTM-PTB

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Pompier ladders! We actually still have one on our rescue. Very interesting piece of equipment. I don't know how willing I'd be to use one far up on the building.....
    Here is Hook & Ladder Co. 2 performing a scalling ladder rescue in 1955.

    PS-- the aerial ladder shown is a 100ft model.


    FTM-PTB
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  19. #19
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Morning Pride is some good stuff, but the department I work for is shifting to Lion apparel. Lion is some awesome gear. Combined with our Reed hoods, we sometimes call it our "superman suit". You can take alot more heat with it. The difference in Lion and the Morning Pride gear is, standing up in a hot one, and wanting to crawl under the carpet. It's a little heavier but, get your butt in the gym and it's well worth it. It could be that 2 or 3 minutes extra needed to find another way out.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Originally posted by jakefo67
    Morning Pride is some good stuff, but the department I work for is shifting to Lion apparel. Lion is some awesome gear. Combined with our Reed hoods, we sometimes call it our "superman suit". You can take alot more heat with it. The difference in Lion and the Morning Pride gear is, standing up in a hot one, and wanting to crawl under the carpet. It's a little heavier but, get your butt in the gym and it's well worth it. It could be that 2 or 3 minutes extra needed to find another way out.
    Or it could mean "Oops. I couldn't tell how hot it really is and no I've gone someplace I probably shouldn't be"......... It's not always a good thing to be able to "take the heat".........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED


    Here is Hook & Ladder Co. 2 performing a scalling ladder rescue in 1955.

    PS-- the aerial ladder shown is a 100ft model.


    FTM-PTB
    You guys earn every cent man!!!

    Our purchaser once told me after I asked to try Morning Pride "we will get the cheapest money can buy" boy was that mutt fricken right

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Originally posted by jakefo67
    Morning Pride is some good stuff, but the department I work for is shifting to Lion apparel. Lion is some awesome gear. Combined with our Reed hoods, we sometimes call it our "superman suit". You can take alot more heat with it. The difference in Lion and the Morning Pride gear is, standing up in a hot one, and wanting to crawl under the carpet. It's a little heavier but, get your butt in the gym and it's well worth it. It could be that 2 or 3 minutes extra needed to find another way out.
    The "superman suit" mentality will get you killed.

    "Standing up" in a hot one? Obviously a lack of training.

    This whole gear comparison thing is horsecrap.

    FDNY specifies what it needs.

    The manufacturer either meets the standard or it doesn't.

    A Ferrari and a Yugo are both cars...which would you rather drive?

    'nuff said!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    FiremedicMike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Central Ohio, USA
    Posts
    374

    Default

    BTW.. I __LOVE__ my janesville ISOdry (new version, but I liked the silvery version too).. It is truly the best gear I've ever worn..

    But thats just my opinion..

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber
    jfTL41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    573

    Default

    All this talk about the scaling ("scary")ladder, the ladder would have been of no use to the brothers from R3 and L27. If it was there it would have been on a rig out front not in the rear and not in the few seconds they had to get out. The personal rope may have helped and the LSR was of no use. It was set up by members of two companies (Sq41 and R3) that train constantly on the LSR and can deploy it in seconds. The scary ladder coming back, I wouldn't go clearing a spot for it on the rig just yet.

  25. #25
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


    The "superman suit" mentality will get you killed.

    "Standing up" in a hot one? Obviously a lack of training.
    k, glad I wasn't the only one who found this a little scary.

    (spook... didn't mean to copy your icon either!)
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register