Bunker Gear Drama @ FDNY

[jfTL41]

Below is a link to an article. Basically the UFA wants project fire and project hero bunker gear (apparently only made by Morning Pride (sold by $$$Total Fire$$$) As opposed to the new design from globe and some other manufacturers who would like to outfit NYC. The other Gear is all NFPA compliant but not project fire or project hero. Does anyone know what the deal is with these "projects." Something $mells fi$hy here.


http://ufalocal94.org/news_stories/n..._01_30_05.html

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

I smell nothing fishy here...

If Lion and Globe want to bid on the FDNY gear contract, then they can and should make the gear complinat to the three standards set forth by the FDNY.

It's like an apparatus manufacturer saying "we can't build a rig to your standards, but we can come close, is that good enough?"

[E40FDNYL35]

Morning Pride gear is great and we are happy with there gear. We don't need low bid gear. We need the best thats out there.

[StLRes2cue]

Originally posted by E40FDNYL35
We need the best thats out there.

Preach on Rev. E40....

How many times are big city departments going to CONTINUOUSLY screw with those of us on the front lines, to save a few tousand dollars that will end up going to some frivilous project.

I agree with my Brother from the Northwest. We're out there in the gear everyday in tight situations. Put us in quality stuff that we Trust!

Can I get an Amen?

[HeavyRescueTech]

and how do you know globe or lion isn't better gear, unless you give them the oppertunity to fairly compete?

[MemphisE34a]

If I remember correctly, Jainsville aka Lion Apparel was one of the lead manufacturers behind Project FIRES so they have ample oppurtunity to be compliant now.

We wear Morning Pride in Memphis. Every contract we invite other manufacturers to supply sets to be field evaluated. Many do not want to participate. The ones that have supplied test sets have not been able to supply gear that has been as comfortable or been able to do as well in various field tests.

We think its the best and so far have been able to stay in it.

[SteveDude]

WE tried just about everything in London during 96/97...finally ending up with a 'lease' contract with Lion in 1998.

WE have to change again next year...if the City go with Lion, you could end up looking like this!!!!

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by SteveDude
WE tried just about everything in London during 96/97...finally ending up with a 'lease' contract with Lion in 1998.

WE have to change again next year...if the City go with Lion, you could end up looking like this!!!!

Hey Steve, how come you guys wear motorcycle helmets


Seriously, how do you like them? The Chief at my last department wanted to try them, but over here they are expensive.

[E40FDNYL35]

February 1, 2005 -- City fire officials are taking another look at whether some firefighters should carry ropes, after two firefighters leaped to their death last week in the Bronx.

But what else do they already have in their arsenal?

The fire service has developed an array of equipment to protect firefighters, whether rushing into a burning building or wrestling with powerful equipment outside. The value of every tool is carefully scrutinized for durability versus weight; everyday use versus something reserved for a jam.

One of its biggest advances in recent years has been bunker gear.

In the 1960s, firefighters typically wore jeans under long simple coats made of canvas or rubber. When it got wet, the canvas would get as stiff as a board. Today, they wear high-tech flame-retardant clothing made of materials like Kevlar, which is designed to protect firefighters for short periods in intense heat.

Since the bunker gear was introduced in 1994, burn injuries have been dramatically reduced, fire officials said.

As for the ropes, historically firefighters didn't always carry safety rope. Ropes actually came into wide use in the fire service only since the mid-1980s fueled by technological advances in synthetic rope made by the mountain climbing industry.

The deaths of two New York City firefighters when a rope snapped during a fire in the early 1980s led to the creation of the first national standard for safety ropes, said Glenn Corbett, a professor of fire science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

"The whole national shift away from old rope to synthetic all changed with that one incident in New York," he said.

But, citing bulk, the department removed a ropes/harness combo from standard use in 2000, keeping only the harness.

Given the small amount of time available to the firefighters last Sunday, it is at best speculative to suggest that one piece of equipment or another would have made a difference. On the other hand, two firefighters who lived did use a rope to lower themselves some of the way before they fell.

Now the city will consider whether to re-introduce the ropes, including adding a pocket to the bunker jacket that might ease bulk problems.

Firefighters also used to train long and hard in the use of scaling ladders. A firefighter used a scaling ladder, also known as a Pompier Ladder, by hooking it between stories and allowing firefighters to climb between floors. In the academy, proving your ability with the ladders was once considered a rite of passage. But the ladders were phased out in the mid-1990s.

Firefighters can also use items called aerial ladders, which are mounted on the back of fire trucks and powered with hydraulics. For back sections of buildings, which are too difficult to reach, they could use portable extension ladders, which range in length from 10-feet to 35-feet.

In addition to the bunker gear, radio, known as a handy-talkie, helmet, gloves, mask and hood, firefighters often carry spare hose nozzles, a wood chock to keep doors open and long pike-like multi-use tools to open blocked paths.

Who gets what depends on the assigned jobs.

ROPE & HARNESS After last week's deaths, fire officials are considering re-introducing synthetic safety ropes and harnesses, first used in the mid-1980s and discontinued in 2000.

ENGINE COMPANIES Firefighters from these units are responsible for putting out the fires. Engine units have comparable equipment to ladder companies, except they carry water hoses. The firefighter in the above photo has a detachable nozzle hooked to his right hip.

LADDER COMPANIES These firefighters dash into buildings, conduct search-and-rescues, and vent structures. The firefighters who died in last week's blazes in the Bronx and Brooklyn were from Ladder units.Fire-resistant hood, worn over the breathing mask and under the helmet.Handie-talkie, slung over the shoulder for easy reach, is used for radio communications.Flashlight, department issue, known as a Garrity light.Self-contained breathing apparatus consists of a mask, gauge and tank. Tank contains compressed room air: 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, plus 1% other gases. Tank air is rated to last 45 minutes, but not recommended for beyond 30 minutes.Search-and-rescue tools include a "rabbit," a long, slender metal bar used to pry open windows, doors and gates. The rabbit clips to an ax for easy carrying.Bunker coat and pants are fire retardant and have reflective material for visibility. Name on bunker coat makes firefighter identifiable to colleagues while in full gear.Gauge monitors air level of tank worn on back. System emits shrill sound if firefighter does not move for 15 seconds.Gear's total weight:100 pounds

[StLRes2cue]

Originally posted by E40FDNYL35
Firefighters also used to train long and hard in the use of scaling ladders. A firefighter used a scaling ladder, also known as a Pompier Ladder, by hooking it between stories and allowing firefighters to climb between floors. In the academy, proving your ability with the ladders was once considered a rite of passage. But the ladders were phased out in the mid-1990s.

So E40, Is there actually talk of bringing Pompier training back to the academy and back on the line?

[E40FDNYL35]

Originally posted by StLRes2cue
So E40, Is there actually talk of bringing Pompier training back to the academy and back on the line?

Yes...

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

I dont know about Lion, but Globe is good stuff and definately not "cheap".

[SpartanGuy]

Pompier ladders! We actually still have one on our rescue. Very interesting piece of equipment. I don't know how willing I'd be to use one far up on the building.....


And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens. Everything else directly ties in to your life safety. I'd rather be a member of a broke-@$$ department with quality equipment than one that is penny wise but dollar stupid, so to speak.

[DennisTheMenace]

Originally posted by SpartanGuy



And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens. Everything else directly ties in to your life safety. I'd rather be a member of a broke-@$$ department with quality equipment than one that is penny wise but dollar stupid, so to speak.

True, BUT ....price does not make quality, the design and manufacturing does. Picking the most expensive item off the shelf, can be as stupid or worse then those that try and save money by picking the least expensive item off the shelf based only on price tag.

I want to provide the taxpayers with both quality service, which means firefighters that are safe enough and come back the next shift, and the most bang for their buck, because it is my life out there and my tax dollars too.

Now if the go cheap to save bucks so that the chief can get a new mahogany conference table rather then getting the best deal on great gear, then there is a serious problem with priorities.

[cdemarse]

Originally posted by SpartanGuy

And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens.

ahh yes you and I wouldnt but the people paying the bill most likely will never touch it let alone wear it. If it meets code thats all the matters to them.

and i personaly believe morning pride is the best gear you can buy.

[HeavyRescueTech]

Originally posted by SpartanGuy
And when it comes to turnout geat, don't skimp on money. I don't see how ANYONE can justify cheapness in any sort of fire department equipment other than notepads and pens.

so explain to my why so many departments are no longer issuing leather helmets, and going to either salad bowls or traditional style plastic helmets. last i heard, it was due to the plastics being as good for 1/3 of the price of a leather.

[FFFRED]

so explain to my why so many departments are no longer issuing leather helmets, and going to either salad bowls or traditional style plastic helmets. last i heard, it was due to the plastics being as good for 1/3 of the price of a leather.

It is because everything in city government is based on short term savings. Elected officals have to show a savings in the short term so they can show how they balanced a budget and slashed spending etc...for their next campaign. It doesn't matter that the actual cost will be more over the career of any specific firefirefighter. Most Mayoral administrations don't last that long. So they don't care if they have to replace a helmet 3 or 4 times during a members career, not to mention the number of times it takes to repair other issues on the lid. Those are long term or hidden costs that don't translate well to pamplets exectutive summaries on how the FD budget was trimmed. Most retired guys I know went through 1 or 2 lids depending on how much work they saw. You should see some of the plasitc lids in my house with only 1,2 or3 years use. many things falling off.. loose components. Fitting isn't as tight as the leathers. And the front piece is a cheaper version with less strength. The finial can very easily catch on debris and be hard to remove as I have discussed on here before.

For the FDNY specificly the reason they started issuing those lousy plastic lids was a contract for a single source supplier for bunker gear. Which meant they wanted one vendor for turnout gear. It just so happens Total Fire Group sold those Ben IIs. If they sold Cairns products we would have stayed with them. Rememeber it was very costly for the FDNY to outfit all 11,000 firefighters with Bunkergear, so they were looking to trim costs everywhere they could. Helmets was one place they felt they could go cheap.

FTM-PTB

[FFFRED]

Pompier ladders! We actually still have one on our rescue. Very interesting piece of equipment. I don't know how willing I'd be to use one far up on the building.....

Here is Hook & Ladder Co. 2 performing a scalling ladder rescue in 1955.

PS-- the aerial ladder shown is a 100ft model.


FTM-PTB

[jakefo67]

Morning Pride is some good stuff, but the department I work for is shifting to Lion apparel. Lion is some awesome gear. Combined with our Reed hoods, we sometimes call it our "superman suit". You can take alot more heat with it. The difference in Lion and the Morning Pride gear is, standing up in a hot one, and wanting to crawl under the carpet. It's a little heavier but, get your butt in the gym and it's well worth it. It could be that 2 or 3 minutes extra needed to find another way out.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by jakefo67
Morning Pride is some good stuff, but the department I work for is shifting to Lion apparel. Lion is some awesome gear. Combined with our Reed hoods, we sometimes call it our "superman suit". You can take alot more heat with it. The difference in Lion and the Morning Pride gear is, standing up in a hot one, and wanting to crawl under the carpet. It's a little heavier but, get your butt in the gym and it's well worth it. It could be that 2 or 3 minutes extra needed to find another way out.

Or it could mean "Oops. I couldn't tell how hot it really is and no I've gone someplace I probably shouldn't be"......... It's not always a good thing to be able to "take the heat".........