1. #1
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    Default 75' Quint Question

    Some people on my volunteer department are tossing around the idea of replacing a 1980 engine and 1980 heavy rescue with a quint apparatus. We're wondering if the E-One HP 75 or Pierce 75 MD on a Dash chassis or similar sized single rear axle quint would have the compartment space for truck, engine and extrication tools.

    Does anyone here run a 75' Quint with extrication equipment?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    These guys run 2 75' E1's I believe first out. I know they have extrication equipment but I'm not sure how much. Pretty busy combo department, if you call I know the Chief would help out with your questions.

    www.mountlaurelfire.com

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    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Default Re: 75' Quint Question

    Originally posted by WTFD10
    Some people on my volunteer department are tossing around the idea of replacing a 1980 engine and 1980 heavy rescue with a quint apparatus. We're wondering if the E-One HP 75 or Pierce 75 MD on a Dash chassis or similar sized single rear axle quint would have the compartment space for truck, engine and extrication tools.

    Does anyone here run a 75' Quint with extrication equipment?
    We have a 2002 Pierce Dash 75HD quint and it carries full extrication equipment including air bags and struts, along with full truck, basic engine, hi angle, water rescue and advanced life support equipment. Along with a 1500 gpm pump, 500 gallons of water, 40 gallons of foam, 1000 5" LDH and assorted 3", 2 1/2" and 1 3/4" lines.

    The apparatus is 37.5' long with a wheelbase of 226" on a tandem rear axle. Stay away from the single rear, too much weight for a single set of rear brakes. Our last quint (1988 Pierce 75) had a single rear and we went through brakes like crazy. With the new 45 deg. cramp angles on the front you lose nothing by going with a tandem. Our new quint out turns the old one!
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    Moe, how about a 1978 Pierce/International 50' Squrt, with 2 door cab, no room for truck equipment or extrication equipment???
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Red face I can say that !

    the only thing that could make it better if it was a KME !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Default Re: I can say that !

    Originally posted by Weruj1
    the only thing that could make it better if it was a KME !
    I better not go there........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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    Default Re: here are some more Moe ...........

    Oops I only searched in the Apparatus forum...thanks brother
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Moe ............it is all good my Brother .......you are Da'man !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Originally posted by firenresq77
    Moe, how about a 1978 Pierce/International 50' Squrt, with 2 door cab, no room for truck equipment or extrication equipment???
    Hmmm...could we ride the tailboard?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Default Re: Re: 75' Quint Question

    Dave got any pics of this rig that show the compartments?

    Originally posted by Dave1983


    We have a 2002 Pierce Dash 75HD quint and it carries full extrication equipment including air bags and struts, along with full truck, basic engine, hi angle, water rescue and advanced life support equipment. Along with a 1500 gpm pump, 500 gallons of water, 40 gallons of foam, 1000 5" LDH and assorted 3", 2 1/2" and 1 3/4" lines.

    The apparatus is 37.5' long with a wheelbase of 226" on a tandem rear axle. Stay away from the single rear, too much weight for a single set of rear brakes. Our last quint (1988 Pierce 75) had a single rear and we went through brakes like crazy. With the new 45 deg. cramp angles on the front you lose nothing by going with a tandem. Our new quint out turns the old one!
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    No! No! No!

    1st off I'm not totally sold on the quint consept in the first place. Its great for many but for others its just not necessary. Keeping that in mind having an Engine-Ladder-Rescue is just trying to do to much at the same time. Yes, so you have some MVA tools on the ladder, but what ladder tools are you not carrying? We think hey the ladder truck body is big so lets combine everything on it. Whatever happend to having the truck but cause being a truck company requires alot. Think about the quint, but don't combine anything more.

    Also, there was a good artical in Fire Eng I think about how a 75ft stick is a crap idea. I saw first had at the fire before last a 75ft stick fall short of the task we needed it for and because of that we had to move trucks around just to get another in there. I personally wouldn't have wanted to be from that department and had to do that. Spend the money and get a 100+ unless your running in farm country.
    Bucks County, PA.

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    I'm with Dave on the Tandem, unless you get a tandem, make sure it comes with a parachute or anchor to stop it.
    As for the tandem with a 75' why bother, just get a 100' aerial for minimal expense you have a more versatile tool.
    The quint rescue thing sounds good if you are in a department with low manpower and you want this to be the workhorse but remember if you do everything with that one apparatus you will also greatly shorten it's career so plan accordingly. Let us know how it works out.

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    I've posted at length on the use of 75ft quints and how my experinece with them was nothing short of disasterous.

    I also agree that if you don't get a tandem axle you will wear out the brakes, chasis and frame much sooner. The rig will be overloaded way past its legal weight. FDs always have the habit of overloading every rig they have.

    Here are some problems we had with ours,

    -Ladder too short.
    -Brakes
    -transmissions(multiple replacements)
    -intergrated electrical generator and pump caused problems.
    -Slower than mollases in January
    -Guys always wanted to do Engine Work. Poor Truck skills.
    -**** poor Hose layout options. Hosebeds too high or in inconvient placements. Limited options.
    -**** poor Truck tool layout as hose had to be moved or the tail board had to be used to get ladders, hooks etc out. Taking too much time.
    -Operational issues with reverse hose lays and use of aerial.
    -Need for more chauffeurs/operators to operate two functions (pump and ladder) This meant there was a rig with pump and perhaps ladder that wasn't being utilized.
    -required that the 35ft ladder be a 3 section ladder. I personally feel that 3 section ladders should be banned as they are much more difficult to deploy then a compareable 2 section
    -Limited on size of saw to be carried since compartments were smaller due to quint layout.
    -Pump speed governed the speed at which the aerial will operate. Dnagerous to postion and use when flowing water.

    If you are going with a tandem axle as jfTL41 said go with the 100ft stick...it really won't cost much more and you'll appricate it later.
    We found many times the 75ft. won't reach much if you have set backs. Only in a very dense urban area with minimal set backs will a 75 ft stick work.

    And please if you have to have a prepiped waterway. Please get it pinable...don't go cheap! It will render the ladder almost useless as it is very dangerous to use when you can't place it to a roof or parapet.

    FTM-PTB

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    Default Re: Re: Re: 75' Quint Question

    Originally posted by WTFD10
    Dave got any pics of this rig that show the compartments?

    What's your e-mail?
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    Some great points from FFFRED ( as usuall), but let me touch on a few.

    No, quints are not for everyone. But in the right situation, they can be very usefull. As for 75' vs 100', same thing. Depends on your area. For us a 75' is fine. We can reach what we need too, and what we cant you cant reach with a 100' anyway.

    The hose bed is not as "handy" as what you find on an engine. But its workable. We use 5" LDH so reverse lays are not an issue. And we only lay hose with the quint in very rare situations. And we have the same ammount of smaller lines as our engines, so we dont loss anything there.

    As for the pump speed controling the speed of the ladder, we had the same problem with our old quint. The new quints aerial runs independant of the pump, as does the hydraulic generator. And knock on wood, weve never had any transmission problems, and our old quint had 114K miles on it when we sold it.

    Ladders, we carry the NFPA minimum requirement. And yes, we have a 2 section 35". Its all in the desingn of the apparatus as to what you can carry. We spent several years on the specifications for our new quint. We looked at many quints both in person and drawings. And we learned from the mistakes of our old quint.

    As far as trucks doing truck work and engines doing engine work, thats how we do it as well. If the quint is assingned as a truck, then it does truck work. Just because it has a pump doesnt change anything. All it means is that if we need to flow the ladder pipe, we dont have to use an engine to do it.

    And for the small area around the station where the quint is housed, it can act as an engine if first in. In that case, a crew from one of are other units handles the truck work with the equipment from the quint.

    We can do that since we are a smaller department. Its easy for us to have everyone crosstrained on all the apparatus. And we do A LOT of training.

    So if you do decide to go with a quint, please take the time to do it right. Its a big investment and requires tons of work to make sure you get a rig that will do the job for your area. And once you do get it, train, train and train again
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: 75' Quint Question

    Originally posted by Dave1983


    What's your e-mail?
    I don't want to post it in the open...just use the link below my post here.

    Thanks Brother
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Done
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    From what I understand and I could be wrong but NFPA min. on Truck ground ladders is something like 110ft. Thats just about 1-35 2-28 1-14 and 1-10ft. I hardly see that has useful on a truck company. There is an engine in my county that runs 110ft of ground ladders. A pump is a great asset to the truck when used right but alot of the time its more of a hinderance to the truck and its opperations as a whole.
    Bucks County, PA.

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    From what I understand and I could be wrong but NFPA min. on Truck ground ladders is something like 110ft. Thats just about 1-35 2-28 1-14 and 1-10ft. I hardly see that has useful on a truck company.
    We carry a 35' extension, 24' extension, 16' roof, 14' roof and a 10' attic on our quint. In addition to the quint, we get 3 engines on structure fires, each with a 24' or 35' extension, a 14' or 16' roof and 10' attic ladder. My maths not the best, but that looks like 5 extension ladders, 5 roof ladders and 4 attic ladders on scene. Sounds like enough ground ladders to me

    A pump is a great asset to the truck when used right but alot of the time its more of a hinderance to the truck and its opperations as a whole.
    All due respect brother, but I just dont get that. I would think that not having a pump would be a hinderance. Limits your options. Then again, Ive been "raised" on quints, and only have limited experiance with a "straight truck". When I started we had a 1954 ALF 100' tiller Fun to drive, but a pain to set up the ladder pipe. And they only thing you could do with it was ladder a building. You needed an engine to put the wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Guess I would have to walk a mile in your boots to better understand the "straight truck" concept
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    Thanks for all the info Brothers...I hope this stays away from previous Quint discussions that turned into wars on here.

    We will be making one of these types of rigs our AFG application for 2005. All other tips, suggestions, hints and problems encountered are appreciated.

    My department has never had any type of aerial apparatus so this would be a big step for us. If we do go this route, the rig will definitely be doing truck work on the fireground and leave the engine work to our first out engine and auto aid companies.
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    One thing that is often overlooked: Tank size. If you want to run it as a primary engine company, I'd go MAXIMUM of 500 gallons, and be hesitant to do that. For most quints, I recommend the minimum NFPA requierd tank size(300 gal I do believe). Anything bigger jacks the weight WAAAY up and will give you suspension, transmission, and brake problems. A neighboring department has a quint and has some of the following problems(and forgive me if I repeat FFFred's info):

    1)The truck they speced was 3-4 feet longer than the truck they demoed, and they didn't consider that. Too big to fit in the engine bay(where it was supposed to) necessitating equipment switching between stations and an odd set-up.

    2)750 gal tank. The tank size really increased the weight of the truck. She rides really rough. And the tank doesn't get much use, since the truck wasn't a dedicated attack unit anyway.

    3)Carries 1,000' of 4", all well and good. Except the hose is split into two beds on each side of the truck in 500' increments. They actually have to turn the aerial perpendicular to the truck(or elevate the aerial) to reload the hose. Go with a 'side stacker' with all 1,000' on the passenger side in a low hose bed(Only example I can think of off the top of my head is Quint 1 from Birmingham, Ala. FD.)

    4)It's a horse in the agonal state, I know. But get a 100' stick. Plain and simple. Unless a grain silo is the tallest structure in your township, and will be for the next 15-20 year lifetime of the truck, then a 75' is fine. The company whose quint I'm describing? It's a 75'. They're a very large residential township. The quint makes every storefront perfectly: because they can sit 10-20 feet away. I've watched them try to make a rescue from the fourth floor of their high school and come up short. Setbacks will kill, at the least, your reputation when you miss something that was easily made with a 100', ESPECIALLY if a 100' comes and makes the throw. At the worst, it can kill firefighters or victims if you come up short at a critical moment. If you get a 100' and come up short, you know you at least did everything you could.

    Don't waste your money, and buy something that you'll use. DEMO DEMO DEMO as many units as you can get your hands on from varying manufacturers, and varying units from the same manufacture. And make sure they build you what you want.
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    I second his thoughts on the tank size. 500 is standard for an attack peice, 750 is pushing it and 350 would be good if you don't plan on the ladder seing much Engine action. Also keep in mind if you spec a deck gun on your ladder any sort of 'blitz' operation that you may be invloved in.

    I rode with a company that ran a well set up quint. I also ride with a company with one of the best traditional ladder trucks. It takes alot to spec a good quint but I still feel that you lose out on some things in the process. The reason I feel my department doesn't need a quint is the fact that all three stations have an engine that would all be on working fires. I wouldn't be against the quint, but feel it doesn't fit us.

    If you ask me the most important thing that a truck co. needs is ground ladders. The same fire I was at that the 75ft truck feel short that same fire it feel short on ground ladders. Don't sell yourself short you'll regret it for 10 years.

    Let me also say again...No to 75ft!
    Bucks County, PA.

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    Default hose bed

    I have to disagree with the sidestacker idea. Yes, it is true you have to move the aerial out of the bed to repack the hose, but for the amount that your going to realistically be laying feeder lines its no big deal. Spec large enough chutes and the hose sits just ahead of the turntable. Typically this space is not useful for much else. That will give you some shallow high sides perfect for flat tools and smaller appliances. Our current quint carries a lot of lightweiht 3" up there and it feeds out just fine. The new quint on order is going to have a split bed of 1000' 4" and 600' of 3". As long as you have large smooth chutes there won't be a problem.

    As for tank size 350 is kind of small depending on when your first friend comes to supply you with water. We never really had a big problem with it, but 500 is a little more comforting. A good foam system will help stretch a limited tank size to some extent.

    Ground ladders arn't a big problem unless you are looking at an engine with an aerial on top. Most have a pretty bid tourque box that fit a large complement, but based on the original post, this doesn't seem like it would be a big issue.

    Tandem, need it. Big heavy truck needs to stop.

    Many manufacturers are offering independant front susupensions or other suspensions in the 45 degree cramp range, turning shouldn't be a big deal.
    Go with the wheel well compartments for the air bottles, and a hydraulic generator to save on valuable compartment space.

    A 75 footer doesn't get you that far when you start factoring in a lot of things. You might be able to hit what you want when your practicing, but try it when there is a reported fire and you have to reach over a police car and what not. For the most part, the 100 footers arn't a much longer truck as bizzare as that seems.

    BTW the "old" quint is a 1990 100foot with 1500gpm/350gal tandem 37'long with a 239" wheel base. The one on order is a 105 foot 2000 gpm/500 gal 30 gal A, just about 40' with a 241" wheel base.

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    Question Manning Issues

    We have two. One is a 75' E-One and the other is a 75' Quality on a Spartan Chassis. Both are set up as engines with extrication. Our extrication consists of a Phoenix tool pump and a combi tool. Additional spreaders and rams are carried on our ladder.


    What manning levels are any departmens using on the quints? (3-4-5) In going to a quint concept, were there any problems that surfaced that was unforeseen? How did it help your departments?
    Last edited by salisbury; 01-06-2006 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Additional Info

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