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    Default Positive Pressure Fan Safety

    I am a firefighter on station 22 in moore county. on a structure fire we were proforming mechical venilation with a positive pressure fan. When the fan was removed from the truck the handle extended and I was struck in the mouth. I chipped a tooth and yes this sounds strange but I caused nerve damage. I just wanted everyone to know that the handles on the fans can be dangerous and I didn't want anyone else to go through the same thing. Also in our county the fire departments and rescues are seperate. How do you feel about rescue members that were terminated from our fire department helping with equipment at fire scenes and running the pumps.

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    OK, I beleive your question (rephrased) how do we feel about the situation where rescue members were terminated because they assisted the fire department with exterior tasks and acting as pumper operators at fire scenes ?

    If that was in fact your question, it sounds like there needs to be some serious fence mending between fire and EMS in your community, unless they rescue personnel deviated from THIER SOPs in regards to fire scene activities, which if they did, would provide the EMS service just cause for the terminations. Here in our district, we have an agreement with the Parish EMS service, who houses a 2 man medic unit at our Central Station, that they will be cross-trained to drive our engines and pump them at structure and vehicle fires. If there are injuries, civilain or firefighters, we will relieve the pump operator immediattly so he can assist his partner in handling his PRIMARY duty. Usually the 2nd crew member will remain at the ambulance to act as rehab, unless he happens to be an off duty firefighter from our department or another area department. In that case he will generally assist with setup and such, but will keep himself in a posistion to be able to immediattly break off and provide medical care.
    Not knowing the specifics of the situation it is impossible to make any kind of judgement, but the EMS service may be worried about liability and workman's comp issues should the rescue member be hurt (which will also take the medic unit out of service). Remember, thier primary function is EMS.

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    I chipped a tooth and yes this sounds strange but I caused nerve damage.
    Ouch



    How do you feel about rescue members that were terminated from our fire department helping with equipment at fire scenes and running the pumps.
    I would say no, but I guess it would depend on why they were terminated. I mean, if you had a guy that was terminated after he blew the packing out of pump, or put 250psi on an 1 1/2" then no, I wouldnt let them near the pumper
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    Thanks for the warning, this just proves that the PPV fan, aka "The Porch Tornado" is useless and causes injury.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

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    Default Re: Positive Pressure Fan Safety


    I chipped a tooth and yes this sounds strange but I caused nerve damage.
    Root canal... Never had to have one, but I feel your pain....





    How do you feel about rescue members that were terminated from our fire department helping with equipment at fire scenes and running the pumps.
    Who would be held liable if the crap hit the fan and someone was injured or killed because someone who was not a member of the FD was running the pump, assisting with equipment, etc. etc. etc.?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Take the springs out of the handle before someone else gets hurt.

    FD members operate FD equipment. EMS members operate EMS equipment. A terminated member is just that, terminated, no longer a member of that department.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Puffy,I really hope you're not serious.Certain precautions need to be employed when using PPV but it's a valuable tool for the toolbox.Be real careful running one near a gravel drive,they heave pebbles pretty well. T.C.

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    101: They have their place in the fire service but most places around where I work don't use them correctly. There are only a handful of depts. that actually use them. The problem is that here in the northeast we have an abundance of balloon frame construction as well as buildings that have been renovated creating voids where fire travels unchecked. I have witnessed this several times with new parking lots being made in the process. Introducing an air current into a building on fire can have disasterous results, as shown by the experience that FDNY had in 98' at the Vandalia Ave. fire in Brooklyn that took the life of 3 brothers, only it was wind from the ocean and not a fan, but same effect. A dept. we go mutual aid to uses their's after personnel have already been engaged for a good amount of time with resulting close calls including trapping 3 firefighters on the stairway from the basement to the first floor because it pushed hidden fire out. This is only one of several incidents to speak of. I believe they are useful in the overhaul phase for smoke removal, but not while making fire attack.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

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    Puffy I have to disagree with your statement "Thery are useful in the overhaul phase for smoke removal, but not while making fire attack". Yes, they do intoduce additional oxygen to the fire, and that will cause it to burn faster and more intensely, but if used correctly they make things must easier for the attack teams by reducing both the amount of heat and smoke in the structure, which allows the hose to get to the fire much faster. This also makes survival more likely for any victims still in the building and makes it easier for the search teams as they can work faster as well.

    That being said, there are some tactical considerations that departments need to be awaqre of when using PPV. The first is making sure all hoase teams are ready to go when the fan is cranked. Any delay in getting the hoselines in service once the PPV process has started may very well result in a parking lot. You also have to be ready to open up and get water to areas of likely spread, which can be a bit of a challenge at times in buildings with balloon construction.

    All in all I seen them make quite a bit of difference in many fire attacks, as long as the department is prepared to make the attack and prepared to deal with the possible problems.

    Just my thoughts.

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    It seems that when we start a tactic, we fail to see when to stop. I too have seen way too much fire damage caused by a PPV blower, and fortunately, have been able to stop some by recognizing what is going on.
    I think that you can use the fan early, but you better shut it down and assure that there is not fire in concealed spaces instead of just letting it run until it runs out of gas, or the fire makes you cover a man with a hoseline to get the PPV away from the structure.

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    Puffy,You might note that I'm also from New England and I'm QUITE familiar with the buildings and design of which you speak.And if you follow the threads at all you'll note I spoke AGAINST the use of a fan in a balloon three decker that was a Forum WWYD a short time back.That being said,I am a believer in PPV when it is used with some intelligence.Personally,I seldom use it in fire attack.Not that I don't think it's a workable concept,more because of limited manpower in the early stages of operation.Parking lots? They happen with or without fans,ask me how I know.I was the IC at one of the biggest ones ever built in town.Poor code practices,heavy fire,late discovery,and multiple roofs(one over another at 3-4'spacing).End result;a total loss,6 ff injured (heat exhaustion)but nothing of consequence beyond that.No fans used just a hot day with a little wind and an enormous fire load.Anybody that wanted a "go" with the dragon certainly got a chance that day.If I had it to do over again,I'd have had no injuries(more guns)but the outcome would probably be the same.T.C.

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    Gee, you have pull, bang, and kick ours to get it the handle to go up or down. I guess it doesn't have springs....
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Our handle was similar and we had a close call with someone taking it in the jaw. Seemed it only had those little rounded push in buttons that pop through the next hole in line when you adjust the handle(did my description make any sense... )

    We corrected it by removing the said buttons and replacing them with pins. I'm drawing a blank on their name but they are the ones that you pass through and put a cotter pin through a small hole to hold it in place. Haven't come close to having the problem since... knock on wood!

    As for PPV's usefulness, it's like a lot of other fire service tools in that it is only as good as the operator. In a balloon frame I wouldn't use it however we had a brand new (less than a year) room and contents in an alcove/sunroom/4 season room (whatever you call it in your area.) Fired up the PPV at the front door and got a window open in the said sunporch and we were good to go. It was like a fire in one of our modern gas training buildings... all fire, no smoke. We were done and out of there in no time and I truly believe with significantly less smoke damage and fire extension than if we didn't have or use the fan. Everything and I mean everything went out that open back window, flame, smoke, steam.

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    Originally posted by LFD2203
    I think that you can use the fan early, but you better shut it down ... instead of just letting it run until it runs out of gas ...
    Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

    Raise your hand if you've seen guys just standing near the fan (without hearing protection, no less), and no one among them seems to have any idea when to turn it off.

    [ raises hand ]

    Thanks, LFD.

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    They have their place in the fire service but most places around where I work don't use them correctly. There are only a handful of depts. that actually use them. The problem is that here in the northeast we have an abundance of balloon frame construction as well as buildings that have been renovated creating voids where fire travels unchecked.

    I'm with Puffy on this one. I am in upstate NY, everything is 3 stories and balloon frame. With the lack of manpower, open spaces and a good breeze would be a very bad thing.....

    P.S. Dr. Kervorkian called, he can fit you in next Tuesday.

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    We just had a Firefighter loose the tips off a couple of fingers when he went to move a FANTRAXX PPV fan that was running. His fingers went in through the safety grill mounted on the fan shroud.

    The manufacturer has acknowledged that there is a problem and will be supplying a replacement safety grill. It seems they left too large a space between the shroud and the first bar of the safety grill.

    Take care if you have one on your trucks.

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    Originally posted by CANFF2706
    We just had a Firefighter loose the tips off a couple of fingers when he went to move a FANTRAXX PPV fan that was running. His fingers went in through the safety grill mounted on the fan shroud.

    The manufacturer has acknowledged that there is a problem and will be supplying a replacement safety grill. It seems they left too large a space between the shroud and the first bar of the safety grill.

    Take care if you have one on your trucks.
    OUCH!!!

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