Fire Science Degree

[RobbyJR307]

598 I was just getting ready to ask that question also.

[CaptBob]

Are you referring to an AS 2 year program or a BA four year degree?

Is you father in the fire service?

Is your goal to become a firefighter?

[DTLarson]

I am just finishing my business degree with a specialization in Marketing. I originally wanted to take Fire Science and be a firefighter. A friend my of my faters who is a retired capatin told me it would be better to take a business degree because as you gain ranks in the fire service, there is more paperwork and "business" type stuff that goes on. Also it helps out alot if you have a part time job along with the firefighting.

David Larson

[engine1321]

George, WPI's degree is five year program in traditional engineering and ending in a master's in fire protection engineering. Maryland's program is similiar in that it is design work only, pretty much straight engineering. Not to mention the cost is through the roof.

EKU and New Haven's Bachelor's programs aren't even accredited.

Oklahoma State University offers an accredited program in both fire protection engineering and safety engineering, so you get a handle and experience in not only how fire protection systems work (lab courses actually consist of constructing mini-systems and dismantling them), but also an understanding of safety engineering including certification in OSHA compliant HAZMAT/HAZWOPR technician and industrial hygiene. These are concepts that are being tapped by larger departments (i.e. Phoenix) to help make the environment a bit safer in the fire service. We've produced fire service leaders who have forged new trails in the past 40 years (Alan Brunacini in Phoenix and John Norman at FDNY). I could go on and on about our program, but let the facts stand alone: we are the West Point of the Fire Service.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by engine1321
George, WPI's degree is five year program in traditional engineering and ending in a master's in fire protection engineering. Maryland's program is similiar in that it is design work only, pretty much straight engineering. Not to mention the cost is through the roof.

EKU and New Haven's Bachelor's programs aren't even accredited.

Oklahoma State University offers an accredited program in both fire protection engineering and safety engineering, so you get a handle and experience in not only how fire protection systems work (lab courses actually consist of constructing mini-systems and dismantling them), but also an understanding of safety engineering including certification in OSHA compliant HAZMAT/HAZWOPR technician and industrial hygiene. These are concepts that are being tapped by larger departments (i.e. Phoenix) to help make the environment a bit safer in the fire service. We've produced fire service leaders who have forged new trails in the past 40 years (Alan Brunacini in Phoenix and John Norman at FDNY). I could go on and on about our program, but let the facts stand alone: we are the West Point of the Fire Service.

First of all, there is an arrogance to your post that suggests that someone tried to insult OK State. I re-read all the posts and found nothing that even remotely suggested any negatives about your school. So it might be a good idea to lose the attitude.

Secondly, WPI and U Md have premiere programs. Are they expensive? Of course they are. But these are top notch schools with unquestionable academic reputations. If I remember correctly, WPI has a collaborative program with NIST in the study of fire protection engineering. Why does the cost of the school become a negative? I have twin 17 year-olds who will start college in September. Both have GPA's in excess of 3.5 and class ranks in the top 25%. They have been accepted at some major universiies. One factor that I am not going to use to help them choose a school is cost. There a plethora of financial aid programs, as I am sure you know, that will make almost any college within reach of almost any dtudent.

The combined BS/MS program is a fantastic idea. Many students complete their BS with every intention of returning to school and, for whatever reason (usually a damn woman ) they put the decision off until much later in life. With the combined program, they can finish the MS before they begin their career and when their "learning routine" is still fresh.

Thirdly, you are certainly not suggesting that UNH and EKU are not accredited universities, are you? If you are referring to ABET, as far as I can find out, they do not have a specific accreditation in fire science or fire protection. So I am not sure if the fact that EKU or UNH not having that accreditation is an accurate guage of the quality of the program. Also, ABET is not the only accreidting organization out there.

Lastly, there is no question that OK State has a fine program. There is no doubt that they have esteemed graduates. But to disparage other schools at your expense is grossly unfair and quite unprofessional.

[PATF1engineer]

Rob,

I assume you are looking at going to WCCC. They have a good fire science program, I know several people that have gone through it. There is a good mix of classes on command, building codes and construction, suppression systems, tactics and the usual mix of other classes. One thing you might want to try to explain to your dad is that the program isn't trying to train you to be a full time volunteer firefighter. In fact, most of the work isn't really fire suppression related. There are a lot of different career opportunities that can come out of it.

I also suggest you look into the Fire Protection Engineering field. I believe that WCCC's program is set up to transfer to a 4 or 5 year program. The University of Maryland has a very good ABET accredited program. The accreditation is important for when you take the Professional Engineer's exam. There is a specific PE exam for Fire Protection Engineering.

One thing that you will want to do if you go that route. WCCC used to offer both technical math and science classes and college level classes. For example, you could take Tech Math 1 and 2 or College Algebra and Calculus up through Calc 3. If you want to transfer you need to take the college level classes. They aren't really any harder anyway. I am not sure if they still do this.

Anyway, good luck.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

The info on the math classes is good advice. If I go back for my MS in FPE, I will probably have to take 6 credits of undergrad calculus before they will accept me. DO IT NOW! I can't even spell calculus anymore.

Just a word about the PE exam. The FPE specific PE exam is not in every state. NJ does not presently have a specific license for FPE.

[engine1321]

George-

I'm not "suggesting" that EKU and New Haven aren't accredited, I'm stating it. As far as I can read, you've proven my point. Just because there are "other forms of accreditation", doesn't mean it follows an accepted degree path in the right disciplines for an engineering/technology degree.

Stating facts and a little college competition is hardly unprofessional. I'm a professional when I'm on the job or doing something job related. I don't get paid or compensated for stating opinions and facts so step off my nuts.

BTW, where exactly did you gain your degree in fire protection engineering?

[FireCritic]

More and more Chiefs are looking for educated Firefighters to lead their organizations. Some departments will pay you extra for degrees that you have obtained. Some departments will pay you to go to school. Would you rather get it out of the way now or wait until you have a job, family, children, and other things you want to do to go to school. I got my Associates degree before my career and I am now working on my Bachelors. I kinda wish I got them at the same time. There are pros and cons. However I think whatever you do you should get the degree. Your father is not in tune with what is going on unfortunatly and cannot give you proper advice.

[MacInnis]

Well you hit a nerve with me.

I tried to let it go with you but you just couldn't. I guess I am just stupid and have no right in the field because I didn't go to OKU. Sorry the EKU isn't ABET certified. But that doesn't mean I know any less then you my friend. My boss is ABET and feels that I am equal to him. The problem is you are stuck on this one thing ABET. So since you know what is the difference between EKU and OKU other then ABET. I choose EKU over WPI and I could have gone there. I choose EKU becuase of the people, the program and price. I looked at OKU too back in 1996. EKU was coming up as a better school then OKU. Ok maybe we have short comings but every school does. If you want to compare some thing like campus life you need to look at cost. EKU is a very small school at least were I some from it is. Its there to Educate Kentucky Students and its original idea was for those in Eastern Kentucky a well known poverty section of Kentucky at one time.

I have no problem with someone saying hey I LOVE my School. But to pretty much put everyone else that has a degree in Fire and Safety under you becuase they didn't go to OKU is uncalled for. And I feel since I can keep up and understand my boss who is ABET certified, complete what is given to me with out trouble. Then the school I went to did something right.

Heck I even willing to take the ABET test see if I can do it.

[Diane E]

From their website (while it doesn't list fire eng., it's not fair to say they're not accredited when in fact some programs are):

Accreditation

The University of New Haven is a coeducational, non-sectarian, independent institution of higher learning, chartered by the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut.

The university is fully accredited by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges (NEASC) which accredits schools and colleges in the six New England states. Membership in the association indicates that the institution has been carefully evaluated and found to meet standards agreed upon by qualified educators. The university's bachelor of science degree programs in chemical, civil, electrical, industrial, and mechanical engineering are also accredited by the Engineering Accreditation Commission of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology(EAC/ABET).

The university holds membership in the American Council on Education, the Association of American Colleges, the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities, the Academy of Criminal Justice Science, the College Entrance Examination Board and is a member of other regional and national professional organizations.

Individual programs, departments and schools hold various forms of national professional accreditation, listed under relevant department pages.

[CaptBob]

Robby:

First leave no doubt that I believe in education. If you want to get a Public Administration, Engineering or any other degree as a career track, great. Don’t think it will be the key to get into the fire service to ride big red.

Using a screen name of Robby, you’re probably still young enough and certainly have plenty of time. But where are you going to get the most bang for your buck? We have enough chiefs. We need more Indians.

What’s the time line? If you’re just starting college and want to get your BA, it could take you 4 maybe 5 or more years depending on when you can line up and complete all your classes and requirements. Then, if you wanted to go further the timing it to get into and academy and or paramedic school and get some street time another 2+ years? So around 7 years give or take to get in position to go after the badge. Are you going to need student loans? Do you have a special person in your life who is going to wait while you pursuit your career? How long can you tread water?

Now if I read what you wrote correctly, you’re currently a volunteer with an EMT and your main goal in life is to become a firefighter?

Everyone has an opinion, there are exceptions and more than one road to a badge and there are no guarantees in life which ever path you take. This might help:

Ask yourself who is getting the badges? The vast majority of candidates we see get hired do not have advanced degrees. They're more in the line of EMT, FF1 academy, working on or have an AA or AS degree or medics. Some have no fire education or experience. Their biggest asset was they leaned how to take an interview.

For most entry-level non medic tests degrees aren’t required. Often all you need to apply is minimum age, EMT and a drivers license.

We do see candidates on a regular basis who went to B.S./BA route with unrelated degrees and have trouble getting hired. Yea, maybe if you got to the chiefs oral it could be a factor, but you have to get through that snoot nose rookie entrance level oral first.

As Steve Prziborowski, Fire Captain - Santa Clara County Fire Department wrote:

Do what you have to do be more marketable so you can take more tests and have something more to offer a department, but remember that it all comes down to that 15 to 30 minute oral interview. I've seen some awesome candidates with resumes packed full of accomplishments that couldn't sell them self in an interview to even make the top 50%.

I’ve coached several candidates who have had B.S./BA degrees in Public Administration and Engineering areas. I believe they have been misguided by counselors that said this would be an asset to get into the fire service. What ends up happening is these candidates show up at an entry-level oral board boasting to the board with their degree. What they don’t understand is not many on the other side of the oral board table have this degree. And most of these candidates will never have a chance to use it in the fire service. Can you get hired going the education route? Sure. It happens all the time.

An associate sent me this information from a fire officer who instructs Fire Protection and Fire Management programs at California State University Los Angeles. With the subject of wanna-bees desiring to get their BA/BS degrees confirmed what you and I already know about candidates in interviews showing up with BA/BS degrees. And that is they get either laughed out of the room or the interview panel becomes resentful and down goes the interview score! DUH!

An oral board rater just sent me this:

Out of the fifteen interviews that I was a panel member on, about four candidates held BS degrees. Mostly Finance and Management.

While these candidates told us how they have always "dreamed of being a firefighter" and "helping people", when I asked them what they were doing "right now" and "what have you done" to become a firefighter, not a one of them could tell me that they had taken fire science classes.

So, so far, my original theory of those with BA degrees expect to get handed the badge just because they have an BS degree remains right on target.

This from a SF candidate: I'm currently on the SFFD H-2 list "4th Generation hopefully SFFD"! I'm also a volunteer firefighter/EMT. My volunteer Fire department requires Paramedic certifications for entry-level firefighters. After graduating from a four year university... I had an administration internship with my volunteer department where I wrote and designed the District's Master Plan and preformed statistical analysis for "time respond" for Fire suppression and medical calls. I also went on ride alongs with the engine, truck and even with the chief himself. I was told by the chief if I went out to get my paramedic license... I would be hired on the spot. Becoming a paramedic is not my cup of tea... it's been beaten in my head as a child "from my grandfather and father" to be a firefighter not a medic... ! All of the paid firefighters like my work ethic and all say they should let me in as a Firefighter/EMT.

My reply: With all due respect to your family members, the playing field has changed. It must be killing you to see these guys hired and it's not you. Like it or not, understand that 75%+ of calls are medical in nature. Eighty percent of the job offerings are for fire medics. Had you gone to medic school as I encourage candidates to do, gained the valuable in service medic street time, you wouldn't be trying to fight your way into a department as an EMT. You would be wearing the H-3 badge for SFFD (I'm 3rd generation San Franciscan myself) or another department.

John came in for a coaching session after not being able to pass any oral boards. He was one of those candidates who I think was misguided into a Public Administration Degree. During his coaching, he kept trying to come back to his degree. I finally told him, "Screw you! You want to come into my oral board and try to hammer me with a degree you may never use?" You’re applying for a snotty nose rookie position as a firefighter!" John dropped his head and said, "Maybe that’s why I can’t get through any orals."

John ended up going to paramedic school (which he should have already done instead of the B/A degree). Although he mentioned the B/A degree in his oral board answer "What have you done to prepare for this position" he focused on his personal life and paramedic experience. He got his badge!

I look for the shortest distance to the badge. If I were starting out and had the interest in the EMS side, I would run to paramedic school. You could accomplish the goal and you would be near home.

Yes, you can get on without it. I have candidates all the time who get a badge without being a medic. But for the time spent and with more than 80% of job offerings being fire/medic, the odds are better.

Before you start a dog pile and ranting, remember I started this posting out with “First leave no doubt that I believe in education.” Yes, there are always exceptions. But if you respond bring in facts and real people, not just ideas. If you’re real passionate about this also be prepared to direct us to your postings where you helped motivate, encourage and directed candidates to resources that helped them achieve their badges.
The proof is in the badge.

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

"Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959

[engine1321]

I was disputing the fire protection program at UNH only, more specifically, the fire protection engineering degree. Everyone has an accredited civil/mechanical/chemical engineering program.

I too looked at EKU and I found that the lab facilities and faculty were, at the time, sub-standard. My guidance counselors in high school actually persuaded me not to go there because of how it ranked among other universities and the less stringent admission policies.

[MacInnis]

Well I understand what you are saying. I myself feel that the faculty at EKU are some of the best. A few are fairly well known in the Arson and Fire and Explosion Community and bat least two have been teaching at Eastern for almost 30 years. The sprinkler lab we have beat many of the labs in the professional world. Yes I agree other parts were a little low. But you have to know the history of that to understand.

Has in the admissions part. Let me try to explain a little better. Yes it is easy to get into EKU. But as a 3 year student worker for the University Archives. Trust me that was done to hlpe allow the students who hadn't recieved a good education in the past or come from a section of the state that was hit hard with poverty. EKU was started simply to help those people get a chance at school. I don't agrue that Eastern's admission is easier then others the following link unless changed will explain more.

More about EKU:
http://www.library.eku.edu/collectio...rn/history.php

But I feel that students at EKU get alot then they are given credit for. 1321 should know how many internships / Co-Op's are shared between OKU and EKU. Our students are involved in FDIC, IChiefs, NAFI and much more. I left EKU with the feeling of knowledge in the field in safety and fire. Some people do how ever think we are a Engineering school. No we are a Enineering Technology school. When I looked into schools for this I didn't know the difference between Fire Science and Fire and Safety Engineering Technology. Now I do and am glad I made the choose. Its not the fact of who as this and who as that. It what you put into it and get out of it. And I feel I got alot out of EKU. It took me a while and I know several others who went else where. The professors at EKU stood behind me and pushed me to finish and I thank them. The others I know left because no one cared. Look what ever you decide you should feel good about. If you want to look at EKU I will be glad to help get in touched with the right people.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by engine1321
George-

I'm not "suggesting" that EKU and New Haven aren't accredited, I'm stating it. As far as I can read, you've proven my point. Just because there are "other forms of accreditation", doesn't mean it follows an accepted degree path in the right disciplines for an engineering/technology degree.

Stating facts and a little college competition is hardly unprofessional. I'm a professional when I'm on the job or doing something job related. I don't get paid or compensated for stating opinions and facts so step off my nuts.

BTW, where exactly did you gain your degree in fire protection engineering?

Excuse me, junior, but where did I say that I had a degree in FPE? My degree is in Fire Science. I have stated on here a million times (you probably missed them if they didn't have computers in your HS library) that IF I HAD TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN IW OULD HAVE GONE FPE. In addition, you can note on my post that I clearly typed

The info on the math classes is good advice. If I go back for my MS in FPE, I will probably have to take 6 credits of undergrad calculus before they will accept me. DO IT NOW! I can't even spell calculus anymore.

WPI is the premiere engineering school in this country, bar none, but you spoke negatively about it. U Md is probably the overall best fire-oriented programs at least east of the Miss, but you spoke negatively about it. Yuo trashed every single school but OK State. It may be good, but it is not the only one out there.

[bobbymurphy]

Feels like we're having this conversation every other week. To start off I'm currently a sophmore at Eastern Kentucky University. I work full time for the City of Richmond as a CO-OP firefighter through the University along with 15 of my fellow students.

The first thing that stands at to me is the fact that all the talk is focusing around fire protection engineering. Eastern also offers BA programs in Fire Protection Administration and Fire Arson and Explosion Investigation. Those are two programs I know OK State doesn't have, and something I really feel sets EKU apart from the rest.

Now I'll go into my only contact with OK State. I visited both EKU and OK state before making my decision. OK State had one of the most beautiful campuses I had ever been on hands down(Engine, we'll have to meet at Eskimo Joe's for some cheese fries to discuss this sometime:-) However my impression of the fire program was pretty discouraging. At the time of my visit the fire program's facilities were basically the upstairs portion of a fire station that felt like it was falling down around me. From what I understand you have built a new facility, but none the less thats what it was when I visited. The one thing that most turned me off was my interview with one of your faculty. He told me and I quote word for word, "If you want to be a firefighter this isn't the place for you." Now I didn't understnad how a place that sells a t-shirt with the "West Point of the Fire Service," on it would have professors saying such things.

Now I go to my visit at EKU. A brand new fire and safety laboratory built in 1999. We JUST completed our brand new facility for conducted live burns and explosions. I would like to know just who it was that talked with you from EKU. As anyone can tell you, they're more like family than professors down here. That goes for the whole program. As far as the whole EKU not being great academically as a whole, I don't know what to tell you. If you're taking the advice of your high school guidance counselor on where to go for the best fire program than you're out of your mind. A degree in a fire fighting related field isn't like getting a degree in business where you need a name like Harvard to be taking serious. EKU, OK State, Maryland are the Ivy League schools of the fire service.

Gotta cut it off short, gotta throw the uniform in the wash for tomm. Then its time to head out for the night.

Later

Check out the student website to see some of the current happenings:
http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/ORG...AFST/index.htm

[NorcalMike]

Where I work, almost all our new hires have some college. Many have bachelor's degrees. College doesn't hurt. Better educated persons seem to interview better. While attending college, consider applying and testing for departments.

Mike

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Before you start a dog pile and ranting, remember I started this posting out with “First leave no doubt that I believe in education.” Yes, there are always exceptions. But if you respond bring in facts and real people, not just ideas. If you’re real passionate about this also be prepared to direct us to your postings where you helped motivate, encourage and directed candidates to resources that helped them achieve their badges.

Now Cap'n Bobby sets the rules, too! You mentioned one real person. The others are first name psuedonyms that don't mean a thing.

You're a real piece of work. First the drinking thing (buy a breathalyzer, beat the system) and now a recommendation against attending college.

You want real people, Bobby? Ya got one. Me!

I was three years into college when I bagged it all to take a law enforcement job FT and ultimately an EMS job PT. My thinking was that I didn't need the degree and that I would get my promotions by performance. WRONG!

I watched people promoted ahead of me who were less skilled than I was because they had degrees. It also took me about 20 years to get myself into a position to go back and finish. There was always something more pressing; family, a new case, a new house whatever.

This is a different world today, Bobby. There are so many kids going to college that a degree is now the benchmark in most places. Your "I believe in education" line is about as credible as if I said "I believe in Cap'n Bobby's program and I recommend you buy it, but...". To receommend to a young man who is contemplating college NOT to go is the most irresponsible advice (next to buying a breathalyzer) that I have ever heard.

"The proof is in the badge" is a bunch of BS.

BTW, Bobby, where is your degree from? What year?

[Diane E]

The first thing that stands at to me is the fact that all the talk is focusing around fire protection engineering. Eastern also offers BA programs in Fire Protection Administration and Fire Arson and Explosion Investigation. Those are two programs I know OK State doesn't have, and something I really feel sets EKU apart from the rest.

UNH has these programs, too (well maybe not Explosion Investigation).

[CaptBob]

He told me and I quote word for word, "If you want to be a firefighter this isn't the place for you."

Better educated persons seem to interview better.

Two friends, Dave and Scott were volunteers in their city. Dave had been convinced that he needed to get a degree in order to be hired. Scott told him to stay, become a medic and they would get on. Dave went off for six years, got his BA degree in business and still couldn’t get hired. Scott became a medic and was hired by his volunteer department. He now has 6 years seniority, made more than $100,000 each year with OT ($140,000 last year---that’s real money) and enjoys the good life, more toys than you could imagine and has traveled everywhere.

Guess what? Dave finally figured out he needed to become a medic (yes, he enjoys the medic side) to get hired. He still couldn’t get hired. He had to figure something else out first.
Dave’s dad is one of the guys I work out with at the gym with. Dave had been trying to get a fire job. He has all the usual credentials. Firefighter 1, BA degree, 3 seasons with CDF, rode ambulance yada, yada, yada.

He has been testing for over 6 years. His dad gave him a coaching session just prior to his oral for his dream department. Dave had been practicing with a tape recorder. During the coaching session, Dave expressed his burning desire, passion, “my life won't be complete until I get a badge” compassionate longing, agonizing story.

One problem. Dave sucked big time! Even after testing for 6 years, he wasn't ready for any oral board. His answers were garbage. This should be no surprise, because most candidates are not ready either. Bottom line most candidates don’t do enough testing to get good at it. It’s the same with many promotional assessment center candidates too. More on that here http://eatstress.com/promo.htm

What most candidates do if they don’t place high enough on the oral is go back and try to pack on more credentials. “Oh, I have to finish my degree or get through that academy” They do little to nothing in gaining the skills for the oral board, which is usually 100% of the score. If you don’t do anything to improve your oral board skills nothing is going to change, you will never, ever see that badge. The oral board is for all the marbles. This is where the rubber meets the road.

“Stop looking in the magnifying glass at others . . . and start looking in the mirror at your self. That’s where the problem is.”

Coaching usually takes about an hour. Dave’s session lasted 2 hours. His closing was a dog and pony show (I wished this candidate would just end and get out of the room) pathetic mess.

I asked Dave how he expected to get a badge when he hadn't spent the time to get ready for an oral. He said, like most candidates, (a big clue here), he thought he was. This is what most candidates think. Captain Bill Long is an oral board rater. He said you knew which candidates were really prepared. Those prepared candidates caused you to straighten up in your chair.

The important point to realize is it doesn't take much to improve your situation and separate yourself from the clone candidates. Dave only had a couple of days to review his coaching tape and redial his approach.

He called me the day after his interview. He sounded like he didn't step on any land mines, wasn't stumped and was able to put it together to make a real good presentation.

A few days later, there was a message on my recorder. A guy was yelling, Captain Bob, you are the man. It was Dave. He had just received the call that he was going to the Chief’s Oral. His first in the six years he had been testing. Not only was he going to the Chief’s Oral. He was number . . . 2! They were interviewing 30 candidates for 5 jobs. How do you like those odds?

When you are going for all the marbles, you want to make sure you’re riding the winning pony!

As one rate worte, “There's an oral board in your future, you just don’t know when.” Do you want to be telling yourself ‘I suck’ coming out of your next oral and you will do better next time. Or, have that feeling that you knew ‘I smoked it’ and it was going to get you that badge?”

Dave got the job. His dad pinned his badge at graduation. Lots of tears.

Where did he get hired? The same department he volunteered for 6 years ago.

We report. You decide.

The proof is in the badge.

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

"Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959