Low level suction strainer w/Jet siphon...a question....

[dmleblanc]

I have a question....is anyone familiar with this item?



I understand the concept of a low level strainer for drafting, but with the addition of the jet siphon, can it be used to provide the motive power to draft with regular LDH? Similar to the concept of the Turbodraft (but at about one-tenth the price)? I've never used the Turbodraft or any form of jet siphon (with the exception of foam eductors), so I'm not familiar with their use. Can you draft with this item alone? Can you use it to draft without hard suction hose, i.e., with LDH? If so, how many GPM can you produce with it?

I am formulating some ideas for our 2005 FIRE Act grant and was thinking of upgrading our 3" supply hose to LDH. With that I was thinking of purchasing some Turbodrafts to make use of static water supplies, but they're so darned expensive. Would this do the same thing? Thanks for your input.

I've also posted this on the general Firefighter's forum, but thought I'd seek the opinion of the engineer/operator community. Thanks

[pete892]

The item pictured is used to transfer water from one folding tank to another. A line is connected to the strainer which has a nozzle built into it. A length of hard suction is then connected to the strainer and the other end placed to fill a second folding tank.

Engine drafts from one tank but tankers (tenders) have two tanks to dump into. Cuts down on tankers waiting to dump. The secret to a good water shuttle operation is to have tankers on the road as much as possible, not waiting to dump or fill.

Hope this helps.

Pete

[Jim917]

I understand the concept of a low level strainer for drafting, but with the addition of the jet siphon, can it be used to provide the motive power to draft with regular LDH?

Well, kinda, sorta, maybe. Depends what you are drafting from. If you are drafting from a nice clean surface such as a dump tank, it would work real well. If you're drafting from a pond, brook, stream or the like, this device is going to drop like a rock to the bottom surface. The turbo-draft as I understand it, has some type of floatation so you are drafting from the surface of the water supply, not the bottom.

It might work if you remember to drop in something like a ground ladder to keep the device off the sediment later.

[mikecarver]

We use this device on water shuttles. First in pulls attack lines and starts fighting fire from the tank The Engineer pulls a hard suction places a low level strainer on one end and connects a 1 1/2 line to the strainer. A tanker sets up a drop tank. The low level strainer is placed in the drop tank. The tanker off loads into the drop tank. A butterfly valve is mounted on the steamer with the valve mounted upside down so the vent is up top. the hard suction is hooked to the butterfly valve. The 1 1/2 is charged and the hard suction is filled untill all the air vents from the bleed off valve then the drain is closed. the butterfly valve is opened and the pump to tank is closed and the tank fill is opened and the truck is operating off of the drop tank. Works great about 4 minute set up. Primers can fail this works everytime

[bobsnyder]

Originally posted by pete892
The item pictured is used to transfer water from one folding tank to another...

Exactly. We've got four of them scattered between our engine and our two tanker-pumpers, and they're pretty much a staple of dump tank operations. To address a few of your questions...no, you can't draft without hard sleeve, and we've used them in tanker shuttles that were producing sustained 1,000 gpm flow at the point of application, so flow shouldn't be an issue.

As Mike Carver pointed out, I wouldn't use these in ponds or streams, though...that would be asking for pump problems, as you'll stir up lots of gunk that'll get sucked into your pump, just because it's sitting on the bottom. For ponds and streams, floating dock strainers are the best portable devices. Of course, deploying dry hydrants is even better. It's really nice to be able to just lay to a pond, open a cap, attach a short section of hard sleeve and draft away.

I'm not familiar with turbodrafts, but our 2,000 gpm engine can do 2,000-plus drafting from two dock strainers, so I don't really see the need for more expensive and complex equipment.

[herbroberson]

Are you asking if you can draft through a 4" or 5" LDH supply line?? The answer is no. Even with the device you have pictured, (which is used to equalize portable drop tanks)it would not produce enough pressure to overcome the vacum pulled by your pump. Draft tubing has rigid rings for a reason, and that is to prevent atmospheric pressure from collapsing the hose when a negative pressure is pulled through it to pull the water up to the pump...thus the name "draft".

[dmleblanc]

Thanks for the input, everyone....we don't use tankers or drop tanks, so I'm not familiar with the device in question. We do, however have lots of static water sources which, due to local geography (basically swampy), we cannot get near enough to with the trucks to draft. So I was searching for another solution.

We have used floating portable pumps, but they come with their own problems. Their capacity is limited at best, and of course there is the usual problem of gasoline engines that aren't run often enough.

I am considering the Turbodraft, but it's so darned expensive. I was wondering if they've pretty much cornered the market on jet siphon devices, or if there's anything else out there. I guess this isn't it

[Bones42]

dmleblanc, you can do the same thing with the low level as you can with a turbodraft. Turbodraft just has a better filter and larger opening which allow more water to flow. We've done it using both 4" and 5" LDH. It works because, just like with turbodraft, your not really drafting so there is no suction to collapse the LDH. It does have problems when it's too close to the bottom as it will pick junk up. We've rested it on roof ladders and such to keep it far enough off the bottom. It will get you water, not tons of it, but some. When it gets warmer, like around April/May, we'll be running ours again as a refresher for operators, I'll try to measure the GPM's we get and pass it on to you.

[sdff1520]

....we don't use tankers or drop tanks, so I'm not familiar with the device in question.

Wow how I wish that were the case here. The majority of our coverage area is non-hydranted. If we had hydrants we could eliminate two tankers and our trailered portable pump...what a significant savings on the budget that would be!

We use the "low level strainer" shown in your post all the time when drafting out of drop tanks. The jet siphon feature can be used to fill the suction hose from a pressurized source if your engine has no priming mechanism, it can also be used to increase the flow rate somewhat. Similar to the old jet dumps on tankers....I'm no engineer, but it goes something like this...by placing a pressurized stream down the center of the draft hose you effectively reduce the friction loss of the draft hose. The pressurized water stream "pulls" the drafted water along... It can help in situations where lift height is near max, or where lengths of suction hose deployed are significant. We seldom actually use the jet portion of the strainer, most often just connected to 1 or 2 sections of 6" suction hose and drop tanks are within 10-15 feet of the engine.

[herbroberson]

After I made my first post on this topic I started doing some looking and research, and found what bones already put in above...an item trademarked the "Turbodraft" for getting to a hard to access waterpoint with soft sleeve LDH. It is made by a company in Pa. and from what I have read on it, sounds pretty nifty! If I remember the article correctly, 600 to 800 GPM supplies can be achieved.I am getting the info on it sent to me and may bring it up for purchase consideration at my volly dept. Will let you know what the mafg. says about it when I get the info.

[herbroberson]

Meant to add this to the last one....this item (turbodraft) can be found at www.turbodraft.net and is made by Schutte&Koerting in Bensalem, Pa
(215) 639-0900

[dmleblanc]

Herbroberson.....yes,I'm familiar with the Turbodraft (re-read my original post), and I think it would do exactly what I'm looking for. I was just wondering if there are any other devices out there that work similarly for a more reasonable price (Turbodraft is, I believe, around $2,500 a piece ) I plan to pursue a Fire Act grant this year to improve our water flow capabilities (LDH, ground monitors, and possibly a couple of Turbodrafts for those hard-to-reach static water sources). I was just trying to get the most bang for the buck. If Turbodraft is the thing to have, well, I guess we'll have to bite the bullet and go with it.

Thanks for the input, though

[herbroberson]

If you get one before we do, drop me a line and let me know how well it functions! It looks and sounds almost to good to be true.

[Bones42]

It looks and sounds almost to good to be true.

No, it's true. They do what they say and they cost what they say. It definitely serves its purpose and functions well where needed. There really is nothing innovative about it though, it's truly just an adapted version of the low level suction strainer with jet siphon. I've seen companies doing the same thing with a normal hard sleeve and a hand line tied with rope shooting in the sleeve to create the "venturi" effect. Turbodraft is a "cleaner" way of doing the same thing, for some $$$$. By the way, the ones we demo'd did not float, they sank like rocks. The salesman tied buoy's to it to keep it off the bottom.

Not saying it's a bad product, just saying there can/may be cheaper ways to do the same thing. Good luck in your research.

[firedawg803]

Same concept ( i believe) is used in the oilfield where I work. Jet is fed with a 2" line, and suction and transfer line is 6". It is placed inside of a piece of perforated 13 3/8" pipe, which is the strainer. We can unload a 8'x 8'x 8' cellar in less than 30 seconds using little volume to operate the jet at about 200-500 psi.

I don't have any experience using the type shown here, but I do know that the jet transfer system is a very effective one.

[firemedic8107]

We have been using a section of 6-8" pvc with a bracket built on the end that goes from 1 3/4 nft to a nipple that is probably 3/4 to 1". Lean the PVC against the side of the tank with the bracket end in the foldatank and it will shoot water to the other tank. Works well and costs about $25 to build or in our case nothing since all parts are donated by the hardware store.

[neiowa]

Herbroberson.....yes,I'm familiar with the Turbodraft (re-read my original post), and I think it would do exactly what I'm looking for. I was just wondering if there are any other devices out there that work similarly for a more reasonable price (Turbodraft is, I believe, around $2,500 a piece ) I plan to pursue a Fire Act grant this year to improve our water flow capabilities (LDH, ground monitors, and possibly a couple of Turbodrafts for those hard-to-reach static water sources). I was just trying to get the most bang for the buck. If Turbodraft is the thing to have, well, I guess we'll have to bite the bullet and go with it.

Thanks for the input, though

Chief

Did you ever get your turbodraft and do you have a report?