1. #1
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    Thumbs up Nozzle help please...

    I am trying to sell our Officers/Admin on the use of 1-3/4" handline with 15/16" smooth bore nozzles. We have adjustable gallonage fog nozzles on them now flowing 120-125 gpm. for years, those same nozzles were set at 95 gpm, I finally explained my opinion of the waste of the larger line if were gonna flow 95 gpm. We basically have 1 1-3/4" precon on the drivers side hose bed of all of our trucks, as well as a 2.5" on the other side of the supply line, as well as 2 crosslays of 1.5" up front. Im a live burn instructor and have been to and help numerous burns were a smooth bore nozzle has been used as primary attack and the knockdown is unrivaled with a fog nozzle, as well as all the other benefits that I wont go into. We have monsterous homes in our district (5000 sq. ft - 36,000 sq. ft) and Im arguing for more gpms with less nozzle/back pressure. Any opinions out there to help my cause....and thanks, be safe. Ps...recent articals if you know of any

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    You may want to try the search feature. This has been debated here about, oh....
    5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times

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    Talking

    Are you sure thats all? Might be a few more times than that!

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    Captnnc,

    I would treat the argument like a college research paper. Opinions from a webpage won't get you far. Pretend you are a high paid consultant and you need to sell the Chief on your ideas. Get tanglible high ranking and experiecned firefighters to refer to.

    Doing some research is your best chance. Call the NFA Library and get tell them what you are looking for. They should be able to get you a bibliography for the topic you are researching. Then accumliate all the artilces, journal columns text book references videos, etc.

    Interview some Depts that use these nozzles. Large and small. Why? because we all know how the arguments will go. Well FDNY is a larger Dept and that doesn't apply to us...Or "Well Upperstrawbottom, Colorado is a small dept and doesn't really have that much experinece with this technique and their nozzles don't apply to us. They can't have it both ways because in the end...fire in Harlem is just like fire in Oakland, like Denver, like where you are.

    Speak to Firemen and officers & Chiefs if possible. Get all angles. Call training divisions and set up inteviews (in-person or telephone, etc.) Try to get the Dept to send you and others to FDIC or FIREHOUSE EXPO or hire out a group to give a regional class where you are. Look to the www.FOOLSinternational.com or other groups such as http://www.butlerfireops.com/ or http://www.staylow.com/index.htm or http://www.ffrescue.com/index.html for training semiars. It is well worth the investment.

    Set up side by side realisic demonstrations with flow meters. Try to get them to try it themselves. Advance a handline with a fog flowing xyz gallons, then let them do it with a smooth bore with the same gallons. That might help.

    Prepare a report with Executive summaries and drown them in information. This accomplishes many things. First it shows you are taking this situation seriously. Second if they are ignorant of the facts they will be dumfounded because it is much harder for someone to tell you NO when there is documentation in front of them. My experince has been most Chiefs find it easy to say no when the working stiffs don't know better...but when they clearly know as much or more...they feel threatened and less likely to brush off issues when they don't have a solid grasp of the subject.

    Get the report you provide sent by registered mail to the Chief and make sure you get a recipt when they get it. That way if anyone ever gets burned or worse because of anything relating to the nozzles and flow...then the union has documentation to send to the city council and Media. Any FD documents are also Public record.

    Also record the minutes of any meeting with the Chiefs. This will also help later if anything occurs and any question arrises to what was said and when.

    Best of luck.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Oh BTW go with the smoothbores...

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    Captnnc,

    In addition to FFFRED's excellent suggestions, I'd recommend the following as well.

    Go to the (competitions) Fire Engineering website and perform a search on the following authors.

    Andrew Fredericks: & Jay Comella. You'll find a treasure chest of excellent articles on this subject by them and others. Here's a few titles but don't stop at these three.

    Little Drops of Water: 50 Years Later, Part 1 by Andrew Fredericks
    RETURN OF THE SOLID STREAM by Andrew Fredericks
    PLANNING A HOSE AND NOZZLE SYSTEM FOR EFFECTIVE OPERATIONS by Jay Comella

    Sadly, Lieutenant Andy Fredericks was one of the 343 brave souls (brothers) murdered on 911 and to me his written and spoken words on Engine Co Ops are classics.

    Andy said his late father was the one who sparked his interest in firefighting. But his passion for fire attack methodologies in particular was triggered after he received steam burns while making an interior "combination" fire attack with a fog nozzle, as was typical procedure for the Virginia fire department Andy worked for at the time, prior to his getting on the job in New York. He turned his serious intellectual skills (evidenced in part by his two bachelor's degrees and master's degree in fire protection management) to the application of water on interior fires and soon would develop the nickname "Andy Nozzles."

    Hope this helps a bit.

    Good luck with your research and stay safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 02-14-2005 at 10:52 PM.

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    Default www.firenuggets.com

    Oh I also recomend a cheap subscription to www.firenuggets.com

    There is a large wealth of info and articles. Even some from our departed brother Andy. This should help your research greatly!

    Best of Luck.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-14-2005 at 11:30 PM.

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    Originally posted by tjsnys

    Sadly, Lieutenant Andy Fredericks was one of the 343 brave souls (brothers) murdered on 911 and to me his written and spoken words on Engine Co Ops are classics.

    Good luck with your research and stay safe
    You can also call the Rockland County Fire Training Center. A fella by the name of Jerry Knapp is now teaching Andy's progarms...(a LT from FDNY is also teaching with him...but I forgot his name) They run tons of concept classes, with the information you seek....they also teach the Engine ops class at FDIC.

    The Number is....
    (845) 364-8990

    Oh Yeah...as FFRED said....go with smoothbore....
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    Originally posted by VinnieB
    a LT from FDNY is also teaching with him...but I forgot his name
    Possibly Lt Tim Klett from Engine Co. 88 - he normally teaches engine co. ops at FDIC.
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

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    or you can go with Akron's break apart nozzles, pump at 1 low pressure, get 150gpm+, and guys can choose when to use an adjustable stream or remove the tip and have a smoothbore.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by stillPSFB

    Possibly Lt Tim Klett from Engine Co. 88 - he normally teaches engine co. ops at FDIC.
    No...that name doesn't ring a bell....he's a boss in mid-town....if it comes to me..I'll post it...
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    We use SabreJets. Fog plus the ability to have a smoothbore. We use a 3/4" nozzle on 2" line and a 5/8" on 1 3/4" line.

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    Originally posted by spowers
    We use SabreJets. Fog plus the ability to have a smoothbore. We use a 3/4" nozzle on 2" line and a 5/8" on 1 3/4" line.
    Was that a typo? Do you really use a 5/8" tip on an 1 3/4 line? Assuming my math is correct, that's just over 80 GPM...

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    That is correct. With the SabreJets we are running a 5/8" smoothbore on an 1 3/4" line. That nozzle happens to be on our foam line (usually the last crosslay that is pulled). The primary intial attack line we use is the 2" line. This past sunday we were on a mutual aid assist and ended up being the first in engine. After all was said and done, the guys from the department we assisted tryed to hijack our SabreJets. Even at a tick over 80 GPM they were astonished at the effectiveness or the nozzle.

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    Correction to my last post. After pulling up the last readings on the flowmeter on the truck, we were flowing 105 GPM on that 5/8" SabreJet at the last call.
    Think!! This Might Be The Day You Dont Come Home!

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    Why are you dragging the extra weight of 1 3/4 to flow 80 GPM? You could use 1" forestry or 1 1/2 at worst.

    FFRED has the right idea, your argument needs to be for fire flow and ease of use. That brings low pressure fixed gallonage fog nozzles right into the mix. Your argument for higher fire flow has a sound basis in fact and you can find that info (NFA formula, etc.. ) There is very little FACT to back up the TYPE of nozzle. All of the manufacturers will bring their stuff, get outside and on the ground and use it, take the best of it to the burn building.

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    We just replaced our main nozzles with the Akron Assault break apart nozzle with a 1 1/8 inch smoothbore on the bail. The fog tip is rated for 200gpm @ 75psi, but when we did tests, we found that it would flow 165gpm @ 50psi with no reduction in reach (we were using 150gpm @ 100psi nozzles). This allows us the versatility of a fog nozzle that we can break off and extend the line. I am a fan of the smoothbore (we use them at work) and am a lifelong subscriber to Andy Fredericks', et al, concepts of only using a straight stream while inside, however I also like the versatility of the fog nozzle. We did some serious testing (reach, flow (it would flow 250gpm @ 115psi), nozzle reaction, and stream all at different pressures) and this seemed our best option.

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    Hello,

    Here are 2 more references that you may want to look at:

    "Fire Stream Management Handbook" by David P. Fornell
    and
    "Firefighting Principles and Practices, 2nd Edition" by William E. Clark.

    Both of these are great resources for nozzle information.

    Of course, Andy Frederick's "Bread and Butter" video series are packed full of great information.

    I'm glad to see that this is a hot topic in the capital!

    Chris
    FTM-PTB

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    Originally posted by AFDEngine3
    I'm glad to see that this is a hot topic in the capital!
    Maybe when you guys in the metro areas get your folks convinced, y'all can spread that knowledge out to the more rural areas of Tarheel-land. I've been trying to convince our local folks for I don't know how long that the solid stream works...but they just won't hear it. Doesn't matter what proof I provide -- "that's not the way we do it around here" is the familiar reply. *groan*

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    I was a volunteer for approx. 15 years, during that time my department exclussively used fog nozzles. When I was hired as a full timer, the department I joined was and still utilizes smooth bore on 1 1/3" lines on all attack lines. It did not take much to convert me, I am now proudly a smooth bore pipe man. The most important thing to remember about the nozzle you decide to use. Know what it can do and what it can't, how do you do that, DRILL ALL THE TIME WITH IT. On top of that, know what you can do and can't do with it. Lets face it, they will both get the job done, GPM's put out fires not nozzles. Get comfortable with the weapons you have. Just my opinion.

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