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  1. #26
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    Thats just plain ol messed up............how sad is that ?
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  2. #27
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    While I agree that any of us can understand the need for these deputies to do something, consider a few other arguements:

    1. The FDs in that area are small and significantly undermanned.
    2. As small as they are, they have been cut more in the last few years. The largest in the area, Ann Arbor, home of Univ of Michigan, has dropped from 125 to 90 FFs in the last 5 years-yes, 2 man engines running to the campus. Many of the depts have long response times, due to refusal by politicians to open stations in growing areas.
    3. The deputies are doing this ALL THE TIME-and that is probably one of the reasons a complaint was filed. To the point where the political arguement is running towards Public Safety and cutting the FDs further, since the cops make all the rescues.
    4. What would we be saying if those cops had been trapped and killed? If they opened a door that caused further fire spread, which resulted in a death? I've seen cops standing on the lawn throwing busting windows with their mag-lites, which gave a smoldering fire air and let it run through a trailer.
    5. Turn the job around-can I say Columbine? We would figuratively HANG someone on these boards if he was shot at during a police incident trying to do a cop's job. Is the hazard of a structure fire less threatening than a domestic violence EMS call? We stage and wait for PD there-why don't cops stage and wait for FD?

  3. #28
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    Originally posted by gunnyv
    While I agree that any of us can understand the need for these deputies to do something, consider a few other arguements:

    1. The FDs in that area are small and significantly undermanned.
    2. As small as they are, they have been cut more in the last few years. The largest in the area, Ann Arbor, home of Univ of Michigan, has dropped from 125 to 90 FFs in the last 5 years-yes, 2 man engines running to the campus. Many of the depts have long response times, due to refusal by politicians to open stations in growing areas.
    3. The deputies are doing this ALL THE TIME-and that is probably one of the reasons a complaint was filed. To the point where the political arguement is running towards Public Safety and cutting the FDs further, since the cops make all the rescues.
    4. What would we be saying if those cops had been trapped and killed? If they opened a door that caused further fire spread, which resulted in a death? I've seen cops standing on the lawn throwing busting windows with their mag-lites, which gave a smoldering fire air and let it run through a trailer.
    5. Turn the job around-can I say Columbine? We would figuratively HANG someone on these boards if he was shot at during a police incident trying to do a cop's job. Is the hazard of a structure fire less threatening than a domestic violence EMS call? We stage and wait for PD there-why don't cops stage and wait for FD?
    I have nothing to say to 1 and 2.

    3. "all the time"? "the cops make all the rescues"? Are you for real? Can you document what constitutes as "all the time"? How many fires in the last year have deputies entered a burning building and made rescues? How many? Your post smacks of the jealousy that prompted the anonymous phone call. You don't care about the cops safety, you're mad because the cops made the rescues and you didn't.

    4. If the cops had been trapped and killed, the incident would certainly be critiqued and there would be criticisms. Especially in light of the fact that no fire fighter has ever been trapped and killed trying to make a rescue.

    5. This is a dumb comparison. You can enter a house fire and make a search safely. There are generally areas that are less hazardous than others. However, a bullet travels 1000 feet per second and can travel probably a half mile at a lethal speed. Trying to compare this to Columbine is intelectually dishonest.

    To borrow a phrase from Donna: JEALLLLLLOOOUUUSSSYYY!

  4. #29
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    The part about the cops busting out windows with maglites brings an interesting question: since the police make EMS calls, they are all trained in Basic First Aid & nowadays CPR with AED. Shouldn't they have some basic fire science so they know not to do such things, or if they are going to do them, they do them with a purpose? A friend from up north told me about an apt fire with entrapment he made, he was one of the first in as an officer, bunked up to go attempt rescue with another officer that arrived, and before they made it to the steps to head upstairs they heard gunshots. (insert pucker factor). Ends up it was the cops shooting out the windows of the apartment to ventilate.

    "since the cops make all of the rescues"

    Are we keeping count? Is there a quota we all have to meet? Do they get the key to the executive washroom if they make more than the FD each year? Do ya think the victims gave a rats butt who it was that pulled them out? Should the public? Ummm, NO. They were saved by someone, be happy the save was made. End of story. Have a Coke and a smile.

  5. #30
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    George,
    You're wrong about the jealousy-my dad was a cop in Detroit, I wouldn't touch that job. The Marine Corps let me play with all the weapons I could want. I have plenty of respect for police-so much that I don't want to see them get themselves killed.

    I am in Michigan, but no where near this area. The info I shared is my personal opinion, from what I have seen in the paper and my knowledge of the area-I went to college there and have friends who are FFs in that area.

    All the time means regularly-the cops get major press every time they do it, so they push the envelope. A fire rescue is the fastest way to a valor citation for them. I've seen similar articles in the papers a couple of times in the last year. Can't remember any articles about FF rescues though. My point was that:

    A. Police are not trained for fire SAR, just as we are not trained for hand to hand combat with a deranged criminal.

    B. I'll admit Columbine was a bit over the top. But you didn't address the point-why is everything PD related too dangerous for us, but nothing fire related is too dangerous too them? Why is there a double standard? Are we as a service more interested in our own safety than the PD? Or are we less committed to the safety of the citizens?

    C. When firefighters attempt rescues, they are supposed to be doing so in compliance with OSHA, industry standards etc. I'm sure the deputies went to a police academy before they got their guns. If the cops are going to run in fires, give them the equipment to do it safely.

    D. Lastly-as mentioned, the FDs are short and getting cut-the more the PD does this, the more the FD is injured. The more the FD is cut, the more the PD gets on scene first and plays hero. The PD benefits in the additional $s cut from the FD and sent to PD. Ask the Ann Arbor Police/Fire Chief-he's a cop.

  6. #31
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    The last time a City cop here helped us at a fire WE were the ones who gave him an award. The only time we don't appreciate our PD is when they park in front of the fire building.

    My only other thought as to the possible identity of the complainer is that it could be a member of the sheriff’s rival political party. A statement like "he lets his deputies do dangerous work they aren't trained for or equipped for and they got injured doing it costing the tax-payers worker's comp money they didn't need to spend!" I can just see a politician making a bone head statement like that during an election. A politician would have a slight knowledge of the PPE too if they ever had to buy some for the city etc.
    Last edited by Engine5FF; 02-22-2005 at 10:16 AM.
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  7. #32
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    you have got to be kidding me. I can't believe everyone is saying the person who made the call to OSHA was wrong.

    is this standard practice by you guys? where if the cops pull up, they are the first to go inside?

    in my town, the cops will not help help an EMS crew lift a heavy patient, due to the potential for injury. the EMS crew needs to request the FD. however the cops were told to take the SCBA's out of their cars less than 10 years ago. but they will still go inside if they are first due on a fire.

    I know of one fire (a couple of years ago, entertainment center, TV, VCR, fully involved) where the cop was the the first to arrive, and using an extinguisher out of the truck of his car, knocked down the bulk of it. then the engine (with 5 guys in full turnout gear, with SCBAs) pulled up and pulled a line to extiguish it completely. and that only on that I can recall in recent memory.

    as I have said before, the line between a "hero" and an avoidable tragedy can sometimes be attributed to dumb luck.

    now before GWCFI or anyone else accuses me of being anti-cop, let me say that that's not the case. if they want to go into fires, fine. give them SCBAs, give them full structural turnout gear, and have them take firefighter training courses, such as FF1 and FF2. let them go in with the proper PPE and training so they don't suffer smoke inhalation or burns. Then I'll agree, let them be a hero. but not when they enter protected by their bagde, hat and gun.

    oh, and I hope OSHA fines them millions. this is a dangerous practice, that many law enforcement agencies practice. I would hate for a police officer to have to die for them to stop this dangerous practice.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  8. #33
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    There has to be more to this than what is being reported.

    First of all MIOSHA will only perform on-site investigation of complaints that come from an employee or an authorized employee representative. Secondly, MIOSHA cannot, by law, reveal the name of the complaintant, and their standard answer to inquiries on the name of the complaintant is that the complaint was filed anonymously. Thirdly MIOSH cannot ignore a valid complaint. “Big Brother” watches them too. They could get into trouble with Federal OSHA for burying a complaint.

    The issue that MIOSHA will be investigating is whether someone in a supervisory capacity in Sheriff’s Department told the Deputies that the rescue was part of their jobs, in effect assigned them to go in and rescue the two people. If the rescues were not “assigned job duties” and the deputies took it upon themselves to enter the building and perform rescue, then MIOSHA will not be able to issue citations to the Sheriff’s Department. If the Deputies were told by a supervisor to go in and rescue the people and not provided with proper protection, then that is a totally different situation.

    I guess sometimes OSHA is like us in the fire service; they are heroes to some and bums to others, depending on the situation. Remember they are just doing their job.

  9. #34
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    you have got to be kidding me. I can't believe everyone is saying the person who made the call to OSHA was wrong.

    is this standard practice by you guys? where if the cops pull up, they are the first to go inside?

    in my town, the cops will not help help an EMS crew lift a heavy patient, due to the potential for injury. the EMS crew needs to request the FD. however the cops were told to take the SCBA's out of their cars less than 10 years ago. but they will still go inside if they are first due on a fire.

    I know of one fire (a couple of years ago, entertainment center, TV, VCR, fully involved) where the cop was the the first to arrive, and using an extinguisher out of the truck of his car, knocked down the bulk of it. then the engine (with 5 guys in full turnout gear, with SCBAs) pulled up and pulled a line to extiguish it completely. and that only on that I can recall in recent memory.

    as I have said before, the line between a "hero" and an avoidable tragedy can sometimes be attributed to dumb luck.

    now before GWCFI or anyone else accuses me of being anti-cop, let me say that that's not the case. if they want to go into fires, fine. give them SCBAs, give them full structural turnout gear, and have them take firefighter training courses, such as FF1 and FF2. let them go in with the proper PPE and training so they don't suffer smoke inhalation or burns. Then I'll agree, let them be a hero. but not when they enter protected by their bagde, hat and gun.

    oh, and I hope OSHA fines them millions. this is a dangerous practice, that many law enforcement agencies practice. I would hate for a police officer to have to die for them to stop this dangerous practice.
    You are an off duty firefighter, driving down the street in you own car when you see smoke coming from a house. You pull up and find a woman screaming "my daughters is still in there".

    Do you..
    a. offer her your cell phone to call 911?
    b. tell her that the FD is coming and they should get to her in time?
    C. let your training and instincts take over and attempt a rescue.



    Then I'll agree, let them be a hero. but not when they enter protected by their bagde, hat and gun.

    oh, and I hope OSHA fines them millions. this is a dangerous practice, that many law enforcement agencies practice. I would hate for a police officer to have to die for them to stop this dangerous practice.
    Using your analogy and paraphrasing your statement...

    "Every firefighter who rescued someone from a fire off duty without the protection of PPE and a hoseline should also be fined millions by OSHA... this is a dangerous practice, that off duty firefighters practice".

    Dan... you know damn well you would be in that burning building making a rescue attempt until condtions deteriorated to the point where you had to bail out. Every firefighter worth his salt would do the same...

    Firehouse Magazine gives them recognition and awards for their heroism...
    *edited for additional comments
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-22-2005 at 10:58 AM.
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  10. #35
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    hey cap, what are you going to think when one of those off duty firefighters goes in too deep, gets overcome by the smoke and heat and ends up dying?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  11. #36
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    Lightbulb

    I will honor their duty and sacrifice, as any true firefighter would.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  12. #37
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    Dan... you know damn well you would be in that burning building making a rescue attempt until condtions deteriorated to the point where you had to bail out. Every firefighter worth his salt would do the same...
    Let's go one further......... what about Joe Q Public who enters a burning building to save a child, an elderly person or someone else who couldn't get out. Should they be fined too? Should we come down on them as well? Every few days you read about a young person, or a member of the public who has saved someone from a burning building. Were they wrong? I don't know about anyone else but I don't think I could live with myself if someone's home was burning and they said that there was a family member trapped inside and I stood by and did nothing.

    Where are the majority of fire victims found ......... within feet of an exit. You wouldn't take that chance?

    Things are not always Black and White, sometimes there are many shades of grey in between.
    Last edited by PFire23; 02-22-2005 at 11:07 AM.
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  13. #38
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    gonzo, your damn right I would. I would open my trunk, put on my spare turn out gear (helmet, coat, pants, boots, gloves, I think I even had a hood in there) stay as low to the ground, and make entry if I could. I've also taken at least the basic fire courses, so I do have some firefighting training. the cops don't have either of these things.
    what about Joe Q Public who enters a burning building to save a child, an elderly person or someone else who couldn't get out. Should they be fined too?
    well, first off, john Q public isn't regulated by osha. but you do bring up a very good point.

    what do we tell the public to do when they see a fire? call 911 and wait for the fire department? or call 911, and enter the burning building to see if anyone is trapped inside? if you are in a building that catches fire, what the the public do? call 911, evacuate the structure and let the fire department handle it? or call 911, and try to fight the fire with whatever water you have available, whether it be a garden hose, sink faucet, or whatever? I always thought it was the former in both situations. then again, I don't have the years of experience that some others have, and I might have been misinformed.

    as I have said before, the line between a "hero" and an tragedy can sometimes be attributed to dumb luck.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    What the logical solution is and what human nature is are often two very different things Dan. Most people can't stand idly by while someone is dying. Not too long ago there was an incident around here that the dept I was on responded to. An MVA where both vehicle erupted into flames. An entire family was trapped in one as they were all unconscious or unable to get out. The driver was trapped and two kids in the back were difficult to get out. If it hadn't been for the bystanders who put themselves at risk to save others we would have had a four fatality accident. The vehicle they were in was fully engulfed upon our arrival, and we didn't take long to get there. Some of those bystanders required medical treatment, but I bet if you asked any one of them they would do it all over again. Often, human nature and compassion dictates our actions. As I said before ...... shades of grey.
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    Here's the thing... no, we don't tell the public to enter the structure. But 9 times out of 10 we aren't talking about cases when someone is inside. Also, how many things do we tell the public to do and they don't do? Change batteries, get smoke detectors, GET OUT OF THE WAY, etc., etc. But that's not what were talking about. We're talking about the police who used to have PPE in their car. So obviously they've had some sort of training. I seriously doubt anyone (citizen, off-duty firefighter, police officer, etc.) would stand outside a buring building, with someone yelling "Help me, I'm burning." What, are they going to try and yell back, "Well, I would try and rescue you, but according to OSHA regualation Section 1 Part 36 Division 3 Sub-Heading A, it says that I can't help you." I know I wouldn't be able to live with the fact that I stood around with my hands in my pockets whistling, while someone died. That's sick, and yea, fine, sue me millions because I'd rather be broke and happy with myself than have millions and live with that guilt.

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    Lightbulb Been there, done that

    I agree with Gonzo. A number of years ago I was driving down a street and saw smoke coming from the eves of a house. I radioed dispatch to notify the FD and then banged on the door of the house to awake the occupants.

    I had no gear with me but the sleepy homeowner opened the door.

    Very little smoke downstairs but three kids sleeping upstairs.

    I dragged the last of them down the stairs with flames rolling overhead. Kind of warm on my bald head.

    Hero? No just doing the job.

    Dangerous? Yes, but with my training I knew I could make it.

    Firehouse must have thought both because they gave me one of those awards but the best part was seeing the father in a grocery store and having him thank me.

    As for the deputies, me thinks this is an internal issue in the sheriff dept.

    Stay safe,

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    Default Re: Been there, done that

    Originally posted by pete892
    Dangerous? Yes, but with my training I knew I could make it.
    pete, you had the training, so it's not the same thing. how many deputies have structural firefighting training?
    We're talking about the police who used to have PPE in their car. So obviously they've had some sort of training.
    FTMPTB15, how do you know this? where is it written that they used to have structural PPE in their cars? I might have missed it.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    DrParasite... I read that along the way somewhere.. but can't seem to place my hands on it right now! I'll try and find it again.

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    First, well done to the deputies. Now for the other...

    If George is right, then it is a sad day for the fire service.

    Dr. Parasite, you can't be serious with your posts?!? In the EMS thread, you congradulate a South Carolina department for being 'progressive' (your word) enough to let a 16 year old drive an ambulance but a LE agency should be fined because competent adults that have been trained to think clearly in a crisis decided they needed to risk life and limb to save a fellow human? It sure sounds like some of that cop hatred George is always talking about....

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    Originally posted by EFD840
    Dr. Parasite, you can't be serious with your posts?!? In the EMS thread, you congradulate a South Carolina department for being 'progressive' (your word) enough to let a 16 year old drive an ambulance but a LE agency should be fined because competent adults that have been trained to think clearly in a crisis decided they needed to risk life and limb to save a fellow human? It sure sounds like some of that cop hatred George is always talking about....
    between you, me and the wall, the only reason I used progressive was because so many people use the term to represent different thinkings. but that's another topic.

    and please, since I'm no cop, explain to me where in the police academy officers are taught to enter burning buildings, without proper protective equipment, and without the proper training? again, if it's in their job description to do that, then give them PPE and an SCBA to keep in the back of their cars, and have them take firefighting training.

    until then, my response is to tell them as I would tell any other non-firefighter who is going into a burning building. stay out, and let the fire department handle it.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    until then, my response is to tell them as I would tell any other non-firefighter who is going into a burning building. stay out, and let the fire department handle it.
    How about if we look at this another way...... What if it was one of YOUR family members trapped in a burning building and a cop, bystander or off duty FF happened upon the scene before the Fire Dept got there; would you want them to "wait for the FD and let them handle it"? Or, would you want them to do what they could to get your family member out? How would you feel if YOUR child died because everyone stood around watching and waiting? Wouldn't you want someone to at least "try"? I just wonder if your view point would stay the same if it was YOUR family member in question. It's so easy to sit back, point fingers and say "I would..... " or "I wouldn't....." but the fact of the matter is that we never truly know exactly how we would act in a given situation until we are faced with it.
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    DrP, I'm kind of curious what kind of training you'd like police to go through before they can enter a scene and pull someone out of a house. FF1 would be very much overkill, so what would it be?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Pfire, how would you feel if your husband was a janitor at a local school, and on his way home from work, he saw smoke coming from a building. He broke down the door, entered the building to see if anyone was trapped inside, was overcome by the smoke and died. now you no longer have a husband, and your children don't have a father. oh, by the way, the person that was reported to be trapped in the house was found an hour later at the neighbors. how would you feel about that? and yes, it's the exact same situation, with a different ocupation in questions, and a different outcome.

    Bones, quite honestly I don't know. ideally, I'd say FF1. with you saying FF1 is overkill, I'd say the sections of FF1 that included SCBA training, fire behavior, search and rescue techniques, lifting and moving a victum while in a IDLH atmosphere, firefighter survival, signs of flashover/backdraft, and how not to park directly in front of the house or the hydrant. and they would have a full set of PPE and SCBA in their car for use when making an entry.

    remember, they are entering an IDLH, would we let a non-equiped untrained person jump off the fire engine and go inside a burning structure if there were reports of people trapped?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    Pfire, how would you feel if your husband was a janitor at a local school, and on his way home from work, he saw smoke coming from a building. He broke down the door, entered the building to see if anyone was trapped inside, was overcome by the smoke and died. now you no longer have a husband, and your children don't have a father. oh, by the way, the person that was reported to be trapped in the house was found an hour later at the neighbors. how would you feel about that? and yes, it's the exact same situation, with a different ocupation in questions, and a different outcome.
    Again, this goes back to we don't know how we'd react until faced with a given situation. I'd like to believe that I would be proud of the fact that he was willing to risk himself to save another. Since I don't have a husband I'm thinking hypothetically I'd like to believe that I would react with the grace and dignity that Lisa Beemer did when her husband died while performing an act of bravery (along with several others).

    You are talking about a "perfect" world Dan, one that does not and will not ever exist. Since the beginning of time and until the end of time, people have been and will continue to put themselves at risk to assist others. Yes entering a burning building is dangerous and in a perfect world should not be attempted without proper equipment; BUT it happens. There are people in this world who will risk themselves to aid others. There are people in this world who would not be able to live with themselves if they didn't make an attempt. Life would be nice if we lived in a perfect world, but we don't.

    I'm also a firm believer in "when it's your time, it's your time", whether you die trying to save another or get hit by a bus crossing the street. Nothing you say is going to change my view on this, every time I think of a bystander assisting in a dangerous situation I can see the faces of those 4 MVA victims who would not have made it out of their vehicle alive had it not been for bystanders who put thoughts of their own safety aside to help another. Heroes come in all shapes and sizes Dan, whether their actions are considered stupid or heroic by any one of us, their actions generally help others. Someone has something in their signature about bravery, how it's being scared but doing it anyway, I don't consider anyone a hero, but I do consider a lot of people in various situations to be brave. I'm fairly certain that those who have gone into buildings that are on fire do so to help their fellow man, I don't believe that they are doing it for the the hero cookies the public heaps upon them after the fact.

    If we, as human beings, professions aside; stop putting ourselves in what could be perceived as dangerous situations does that mean that we quit stopping to help those stranded on the side of the hwy, expressway, rural road or whatever. You know I've seen more news articles of people being killed because they stopped to help than I have of people dying because they got someone out of a burning building. At what point do we stop nitpicking the actions of others and be grateful that they were in the right place at the right time and saved a life? Where do you draw the line, when is it considered "safe" to help someone in need? You can't pick and choose situations, they are what they are and when they arise there are those who will act on instinct, it's primal and it's in all of us; some just don't act on it.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

  25. #50
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    Originally posted by gunnyv
    George,
    You're wrong about the jealousy-my dad was a cop in Detroit, I wouldn't touch that job. The Marine Corps let me play with all the weapons I could want. I have plenty of respect for police-so much that I don't want to see them get themselves killed.

    I am in Michigan, but no where near this area. The info I shared is my personal opinion, from what I have seen in the paper and my knowledge of the area-I went to college there and have friends who are FFs in that area.

    All the time means regularly-the cops get major press every time they do it, so they push the envelope. A fire rescue is the fastest way to a valor citation for them. I've seen similar articles in the papers a couple of times in the last year. Can't remember any articles about FF rescues though. My point was that:

    A. Police are not trained for fire SAR, just as we are not trained for hand to hand combat with a deranged criminal.

    B. I'll admit Columbine was a bit over the top. But you didn't address the point-why is everything PD related too dangerous for us, but nothing fire related is too dangerous too them? Why is there a double standard? Are we as a service more interested in our own safety than the PD? Or are we less committed to the safety of the citizens?

    C. When firefighters attempt rescues, they are supposed to be doing so in compliance with OSHA, industry standards etc. I'm sure the deputies went to a police academy before they got their guns. If the cops are going to run in fires, give them the equipment to do it safely.

    D. Lastly-as mentioned, the FDs are short and getting cut-the more the PD does this, the more the FD is injured. The more the FD is cut, the more the PD gets on scene first and plays hero. The PD benefits in the additional $s cut from the FD and sent to PD. Ask the Ann Arbor Police/Fire Chief-he's a cop.
    In other words, your comments hacve zero basis. You have just have a problem with these cops. I don't care what your Dad did for a living.

    BTW, some of the most anti-cop people I kow had fathers who were cops.

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