1. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    you have got to be kidding me. I can't believe everyone is saying the person who made the call to OSHA was wrong.

    is this standard practice by you guys? where if the cops pull up, they are the first to go inside?

    in my town, the cops will not help help an EMS crew lift a heavy patient, due to the potential for injury. the EMS crew needs to request the FD. however the cops were told to take the SCBA's out of their cars less than 10 years ago. but they will still go inside if they are first due on a fire.

    I know of one fire (a couple of years ago, entertainment center, TV, VCR, fully involved) where the cop was the the first to arrive, and using an extinguisher out of the truck of his car, knocked down the bulk of it. then the engine (with 5 guys in full turnout gear, with SCBAs) pulled up and pulled a line to extiguish it completely. and that only on that I can recall in recent memory.

    as I have said before, the line between a "hero" and an avoidable tragedy can sometimes be attributed to dumb luck.

    now before GWCFI or anyone else accuses me of being anti-cop, let me say that that's not the case. if they want to go into fires, fine. give them SCBAs, give them full structural turnout gear, and have them take firefighter training courses, such as FF1 and FF2. let them go in with the proper PPE and training so they don't suffer smoke inhalation or burns. Then I'll agree, let them be a hero. but not when they enter protected by their bagde, hat and gun.

    oh, and I hope OSHA fines them millions. this is a dangerous practice, that many law enforcement agencies practice. I would hate for a police officer to have to die for them to stop this dangerous practice.
    Your anti-cop attitude and beliefs are so well established here that your comments have no credibility.

  2. #52
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    so george, because you can't provide a valid response, your just going to say I'm anti-cop? well, I guess your just anti-firefighter and pro-police LODD and here I was thinking you would want to prevent those....
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  3. #53
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    I remember reading a few years ago of some local coppers who succesfully delivered a baby in the street and were photographed by someone doing it- they were disciplined by the Police Force command for not wearing their hats in public....
    Luke

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    To me it all boils down to common sense and that old "risk vs. benefit" thing. The CAFS guy would be happy to hear me say that officers did the right thing.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  5. #55
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    94

    Default

    I really dont think this is an issue that can have a blanket statement about police going into a burning building. If there was a fire in the kitchen, and someone was napping in another room, it would be understandable for a cop to go and get them out. If a house was almost fully involved, then no, they should not go in. Police should be given basic understanding of fire situations, like being able to identify backdraft and flashover conditions. Also they should know about ventilation, and how not to make the firefighters job harder by them going in. If I saw someone being assaulted, or a someone being robbed, I would step in even though I am not a cop. Our characteristics that make us emergency responders do not limit our actions to just one job.

  6. #56
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    so george, because you can't provide a valid response, your just going to say I'm anti-cop? well, I guess your just anti-firefighter and pro-police LODD and here I was thinking you would want to prevent those....
    First of all, this is NOT the first time you have posted anti-cop rhetoric and it is not the first time I have called you on it. I refuse to debate this issue anymore. You hate cops. There are more than enough posts in your past to back me up. That is all anyone needs to kow about you and how to judge your posts.

  7. #57
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by Pretender764
    I really dont think this is an issue that can have a blanket statement about police going into a burning building. If there was a fire in the kitchen, and someone was napping in another room, it would be understandable for a cop to go and get them out. If a house was almost fully involved, then no, they should not go in. Police should be given basic understanding of fire situations, like being able to identify backdraft and flashover conditions. Also they should know about ventilation, and how not to make the firefighters job harder by them going in. If I saw someone being assaulted, or a someone being robbed, I would step in even though I am not a cop. Our characteristics that make us emergency responders do not limit our actions to just one job.
    Your post makes alot of sense. But there is a reason why that training doesn't happen. A police academy class in NJ is about 18 weeks or more. There is so much material that is mandated to be taight, that there is no room for anything else (unless of course it were mandated). We actually tried to get a two-hour block of instruction in the county academy here. They were extremely receptive. But it died for the reason cited above.

    As far as jumping into an assault or robbery, just be sure there is no firearm involved. I already explained the unique hazards of a firearm incident. Aside from helping the victim, one of the smartest things you can do is get basic witness info: suspect description, vehicle description, plate number etc.

  8. #58
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    94

    Default

    Yeah, I should have made that clearer. If there was a gun or knife involved I would try to put myself in a position to help police afterwards, and keep from getting someone killed.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    gunnyv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    1,434

    Default

    GWCFI,


    Why do you keep calling me a cop hater? Like I said, I LIKE cops.

    BTW, some of the most anti-cop people I kow had fathers who were cops.

    If my dad and his partners had sounded like you, maybe I would have been one of those.

    My posts never even said that I thought they did the wrong thing. The closest I came was in suggesting that their administrations and budgets stand to benefit from these types of actions, while the FD gets cut.

    I was using the situation to bring up a point. As for my comments having zero basis, I read the same article on FH.com that you did, beyond that, how do you know that you know anything more than I do about it?

    Noone has answered the question I really want to talk about:

    why is everything PD related too dangerous for us, but nothing fire related is too dangerous too them? Why is there a double standard? Are we as a service more interested in our own safety than the PD? Or are we less committed to the safety of the citizens?

  10. #60
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    I think many guys are misssing the point in regards to the OSHA investigation.

    Ask oneself what is MIOSHAs "jurisdiction"? Employees while on the clock of their employer. Unless your dept has some regualtions that state you are to always be considered on duty (I can't imagine for insurance reasons that they would) then OFF-DUTY firemen, cops, sanitationmen, Postal Employees, Bankers etc.... can do what ever they want on their time. OSHA has NO jurisdiction over OFF-DUTY behavior.

    Thus the actions of OFF-Duty FF being the same thing as ON-DUTY Police officers doesn't hold any water.

    Remember there is a fine line between a hero who went beyond the call of duty and a funeral.

    Also to be fair...there have been numerous occasions when the members of the FDNY have come to the aid of the NYPD when they were getting attacked by mobs of people. The last such incidnent I remember was in East New York where Ladder Co's 175 and 176 (I think) came to the aid of two female NYPD officers who were having a hard time arresting a large man and a crowd of unrully neighbors were begining to turn on them. 12 men with axes and halligans might not be trained in police work but they sure do make a person think twice about fighting the cops.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- NYPD ESU has a member years ago who tried to rescue his girlfriend in a tenement fire in the East Village neighborhood. He wasn't trained in fire operations. He is no longer with us.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-22-2005 at 06:31 PM.

  11. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber
    EFD840's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Eclectic (no, NOT electric), Alabama
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    and please, since I'm no cop, explain to me where in the police academy officers are taught to enter burning buildings, without proper protective equipment, and without the proper training? again, if it's in their job description to do that, then give them PPE and an SCBA to keep in the back of their cars, and have them take firefighting training.
    Well, I'm no cop either but I do work for a LE agency and have TONS of respect for my sworn co-workers.

    Now, show me where I said they're taught to enter burning buildings. I said they're trained to stay calm in a crisis. That means that unlike a civilian they're better equipped to analyze a scene and make a risk/reward judgement. I will say this, with the new emphasis on terrrorism and the HAZMAT issues that now common clan labs present, many LEs are far more aware of IDLH environments that we firefighters might want to believe.

    until then, my response is to tell them as I would tell any other non-firefighter who is going into a burning building. stay out, and let the fire department handle it.
    And my response is I don't care if it is the beat cop, the mailman, or the 12 year old paper boy. Anyone that risks their life to save someone else won't be getting any grief from me.

  12. #62
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Now, show me where I said they're taught to enter burning buildings. I said they're trained to stay calm in a crisis. That means that unlike a civilian they're better equipped to analyze a scene and make a risk/reward judgement. I will say this, with the new emphasis on terrrorism and the HAZMAT issues that now common clan labs present, many LEs are far more aware of IDLH environments that we firefighters might want to believe.
    Staying trained to stay calm doesn't mean they understand what will happen if they open the door to the fire apartment...or vent a window...or conduct a search.

    Air Traffic controlers and Fire Alarm & Police Dispatchers are all trained in remaining calm. Does that mean they are qualified to search and vent a fire apartment. The reason we have public service anouncements to tell people to SHUT THE DOOR is because they don't have the training and expereince to know what to do in a fire.

    I'm a fireman and have been for a number of years, I remain calm and can analize the risk/reward of many things...does that mean I am qualifed to direct airplanes in distress or speak to a person on the phone who has an intruder in thier house? Or does that mean I am capable of making the right decision on wether a guy pointing a gun at me really has a gun and is going to shoot in a matter of seconds? NO it does not.

    As for Officers knowing what an IDLH atmosphere is...I can assure you 99% of the cops(besides those who are vollies) in the precints I work in don't have a clue or care what an IDLH is. In fact this next few weeks I'll do a little impromptu survey and ask every officer I come across on runs.

    This situation and discussion was strangely similar to one I tried to start regarding officers not working in pairs. I heard many excuses as to why police officer could do 90% of their work without a partner...but it seems no one agrees that firemen can do the same...everyone on hear always screams when someone suggests that a fireman perform a task without a partner or officer present.

    Just something to think about.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-22-2005 at 06:52 PM.

  13. #63
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile Ladies and Gentlemen.................

    Jeez, Folks. Can't we calm it a bit? I hate to see friends get all wound up over something like this. There are two groups of people in the world, those who are trained and equipped to rush into burning buildings, and those who aren't. Sometimes, one of "those who aren't" finds him/herself in a position to attempt a Rescue from a burning building, and they do so. GOOD FOR THEM! This country is being ruined by idiots like whoever complained about the situation that started this thread. Like a couple who have posted here already, I found myself crawling into a house fire to look for the invalid lady who lived there. PPE? No, I was in my wife's car. Alone? No, Laura (my wife) had my back, and she'd follow me to hell and back if necessary. What's the point? We were two people going down the street, and saw a Fire. We did what had to be done. Nothing more, Nothing less. And we'd do it again tomorrow, if we had to. There is no excuse for not caring about the life of another human being. At least, not in our lives, anyway. I'm only saying this once, and it is not negotiable: Anyone who puts 2in, 2out, OSHA Compliance, and any other BS ahead of saving a life is a spineless jerk who should not be part of our brotherhood.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  14. #64
    Forum Member
    fflynn17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Finally Vermont!
    Posts
    459

    Default

    What hwoods said, but replace wife with husband.

    Situations cannot be litgated.
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

    Dusty, working on Crusty IACOJ

  15. #65
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SIGNAL99COM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    East Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    286

    Default

    OK, let's turn the tables and think about it this way.....

    Your engine company is dispatched to a shots fired call with a hostage situation in place. One female hostage is shot upstairs on the second floor.

    The crew arrives before police do. This situation being very dangerous, your crew decides to try and save a life even though they are not properly dressed nor trained to enter the building under these circumstances.

    We don't even have to go any further than this. Tell me that you wouldn't loose your job or get demoted if you did this and didn't wait for the proper authorities?
    Chris Shields
    Lieutenant / EMT
    Haz-Mat Technician
    East Syracuse Fire Dept
    Onondaga County, NY

  16. #66
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    I dont care what the coppers do as long as they QUIT PARKING THEIR CARS IN FRONT OF BURNING BUILDINGS ! This happens all the time around here.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  17. #67
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Originally posted by SIGNAL99COM
    OK, let's turn the tables and think about it this way.....

    Your engine company is dispatched to a shots fired call with a hostage situation in place. One female hostage is shot upstairs on the second floor.

    The crew arrives before police do. This situation being very dangerous, your crew decides to try and save a life even though they are not properly dressed nor trained to enter the building under these circumstances.

    We don't even have to go any further than this. Tell me that you wouldn't loose your job or get demoted if you did this and didn't wait for the proper authorities?
    Apples and oranges....... I don't even need to go any farther with it.........

    Harve, excellent post.........

    I can't believe what some of the ppeople on here are saying....... I've learned a lot about some of you........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  18. #68
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    In light of hwoods' post, let me add this anecdote.

    Several years ago, I lived in a garden apt. complex. One night, about midnight, a call came in for an alarm activation in the building next to mine. Got dressed and observed smoke coming from the basement door. Cop arrives, I have no gear. We look in the door and see a tire on the floor burning. OK, no big deal. It's an arson, we'll deal with it.

    Next sound I hear is coughing from inside the basement. The cop and I belly in, locate a homeless mutt lying on the floor. We drag him out. He decides at this point that he did not desire the services of a police officer and a fire fighter. He decided he wanted to fight. He took a pretty good beating as he was resisting arrest. He ends up being charged with burglary, arson, criminal trespass and probation violation. He ended up spending a couple of years in prison.

    Then MANY years ago, I was on an apparatus riding up the main drag when we observed a police officer rolling around on the floor with a male. Stopped the apparatus and we went to the aid of the officer.

    So yes, I have been there. Both sides. Yes, it was a risk, but a calculated risk. Yes, I would do it again.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 02-22-2005 at 09:25 PM.

  19. #69
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default I would like to add..

    I dont think for a minute that a P.O. goes inside a burning building to "upstage the firemen" just like I dont think firefighters are "jealous" of the P.D. when they help evacuate a building or even perform a rescue.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  20. #70
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default Re: I would like to add..

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    I dont think for a minute that a P.O. goes inside a burning building to "upstage the firemen" just like I dont think firefighters are "jealous" of the P.D. when they help evacuate a building or even perform a rescue.
    If I may add to your observation, Mikey...

    If it weren't for the PD rushing in and banging on doors to evacuate a burning building, we would have a lot more civilian victims and more FF LODD's!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-22-2005 at 10:52 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  21. #71
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default Re: I would like to add..

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    I dont think for a minute that a P.O. goes inside a burning building to "upstage the firemen" just like I dont think firefighters are "jealous" of the P.D. when they help evacuate a building or even perform a rescue.
    I have to disagree on the jealousy part. If you go back and read that one gentleman's post, he is clearly in envy of the police making "all the rescues". In fact, they do it "all the time". That is pure jealousy.

  22. #72
    Forum Member
    PFire23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    On a rock, surrounded by water
    Posts
    1,845

    Default

    Maybe you're reading more into his posts than is there George.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

  23. #73
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    You'll notice that no one is complaining here about this.

    02/23/05 - Posted from the Daily Record newsroom
    Morristown police officers honored for saving lives
    Heroism, quick thinking recognized by council

    By Eugene Mulero, Daily Record

    MORRISTOWN -- They saved people from a burning building, a domestic dispute and an aggravated assault and on Tuesday night, the council recognized several police officers for exemplary efforts and quick thinking in dangerous situations.

    Police Chief Peter Demnitz, during a ceremony at the start of the council meeting, recounted how Lt. Steven Sarinelli, and Patrolmen Yeisen De Los Santos, Steuart Greer and Carmine Caponegro rescued second-floor tenants during a March 25 fire at Rago Bros. shoe and leather shop on Speedwell Avenue.

    "Officers kicked in locked doors to arouse residents and lead them to safety," Demnitz said.

    Tom Rago, one of the shop owners, thanked the chief and the officers for their commitment to service at Tuesday's ceremony. "I'm thankful nobody was killed in my building," Rago said. "They saved lives."

    Also honored were Patrolwoman DeAnna Dietrich and Patrolmen Chuck Seaberg, Jeffrey Griffin, Bruce Summers, Richard Rispoli and Darnell Richardson who had rushed to the home of a man who had called police saying he was going to kill his girlfriend on Aug. 17, 2003. Demnitz said the officers confronted the man who was holding two large kitchen knives. The man then threatened the officers.

    Using pepper spray and their nightsticks, the officers apprehended the man, who had stabbed himself several times in the abdomen.

    The officers had "a legal right to fire their guns to stop the assault," Demnitz said. "(Instead, officers) resorted to other uses of force."

    Finally, Patrolwoman Beverly Downey, Patrolmen Richard Lamperti, Vito Filomeno, Michael Andrisano, and Detective Michael Buckley and Caponegro saved a woman who was shot July 19, 2003. When police arrived at the victim's home, they found one person dead next to the injured woman.

    "Officers made split-second decisions under dangerous conditions," Demnitz said. Police searched for the shooter, while they assisted the woman, who was eventually treated by an emergency medical team.

    "Thank you to all the officers, the (Morristown) Ambulance Squad members and their family and friends that support them," Demnitz said.

    After the presentation, the officers and their families gathered at town hall's lobby area.

    "We were doing our job," De Los Santos said. "It's nice to be there and help people when they need us most."

    Dietrich added: "We have a great feeling of pride."


    You'll also notice that no one said they did nit to upstage the FD.

  24. #74
    Forum Member
    Tillerman17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    New York state of mind
    Posts
    139

    Default

    These guys did the right thing, This is a no brainer!!!

  25. #75
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    mississippi
    Posts
    84

    Default

    we should all get together and pass the plate to pay off the osha fines fore these police officers. that would really p!ss off the little sh!# who got his panties in a wad and made the anonymous complaint!!!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register