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  1. #41
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    Lightbulb Been there, done that

    I agree with Gonzo. A number of years ago I was driving down a street and saw smoke coming from the eves of a house. I radioed dispatch to notify the FD and then banged on the door of the house to awake the occupants.

    I had no gear with me but the sleepy homeowner opened the door.

    Very little smoke downstairs but three kids sleeping upstairs.

    I dragged the last of them down the stairs with flames rolling overhead. Kind of warm on my bald head.

    Hero? No just doing the job.

    Dangerous? Yes, but with my training I knew I could make it.

    Firehouse must have thought both because they gave me one of those awards but the best part was seeing the father in a grocery store and having him thank me.

    As for the deputies, me thinks this is an internal issue in the sheriff dept.

    Stay safe,

    Pete
    Pete Sinclair
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    IACOJ (Retired Division)


  2. #42
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Been there, done that

    Originally posted by pete892
    Dangerous? Yes, but with my training I knew I could make it.
    pete, you had the training, so it's not the same thing. how many deputies have structural firefighting training?
    We're talking about the police who used to have PPE in their car. So obviously they've had some sort of training.
    FTMPTB15, how do you know this? where is it written that they used to have structural PPE in their cars? I might have missed it.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  3. #43
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    DrParasite... I read that along the way somewhere.. but can't seem to place my hands on it right now! I'll try and find it again.

  4. #44
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    First, well done to the deputies. Now for the other...

    If George is right, then it is a sad day for the fire service.

    Dr. Parasite, you can't be serious with your posts?!? In the EMS thread, you congradulate a South Carolina department for being 'progressive' (your word) enough to let a 16 year old drive an ambulance but a LE agency should be fined because competent adults that have been trained to think clearly in a crisis decided they needed to risk life and limb to save a fellow human? It sure sounds like some of that cop hatred George is always talking about....

  5. #45
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    Originally posted by EFD840
    Dr. Parasite, you can't be serious with your posts?!? In the EMS thread, you congradulate a South Carolina department for being 'progressive' (your word) enough to let a 16 year old drive an ambulance but a LE agency should be fined because competent adults that have been trained to think clearly in a crisis decided they needed to risk life and limb to save a fellow human? It sure sounds like some of that cop hatred George is always talking about....
    between you, me and the wall, the only reason I used progressive was because so many people use the term to represent different thinkings. but that's another topic.

    and please, since I'm no cop, explain to me where in the police academy officers are taught to enter burning buildings, without proper protective equipment, and without the proper training? again, if it's in their job description to do that, then give them PPE and an SCBA to keep in the back of their cars, and have them take firefighting training.

    until then, my response is to tell them as I would tell any other non-firefighter who is going into a burning building. stay out, and let the fire department handle it.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  6. #46
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    until then, my response is to tell them as I would tell any other non-firefighter who is going into a burning building. stay out, and let the fire department handle it.
    How about if we look at this another way...... What if it was one of YOUR family members trapped in a burning building and a cop, bystander or off duty FF happened upon the scene before the Fire Dept got there; would you want them to "wait for the FD and let them handle it"? Or, would you want them to do what they could to get your family member out? How would you feel if YOUR child died because everyone stood around watching and waiting? Wouldn't you want someone to at least "try"? I just wonder if your view point would stay the same if it was YOUR family member in question. It's so easy to sit back, point fingers and say "I would..... " or "I wouldn't....." but the fact of the matter is that we never truly know exactly how we would act in a given situation until we are faced with it.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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  7. #47
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    DrP, I'm kind of curious what kind of training you'd like police to go through before they can enter a scene and pull someone out of a house. FF1 would be very much overkill, so what would it be?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #48
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    Pfire, how would you feel if your husband was a janitor at a local school, and on his way home from work, he saw smoke coming from a building. He broke down the door, entered the building to see if anyone was trapped inside, was overcome by the smoke and died. now you no longer have a husband, and your children don't have a father. oh, by the way, the person that was reported to be trapped in the house was found an hour later at the neighbors. how would you feel about that? and yes, it's the exact same situation, with a different ocupation in questions, and a different outcome.

    Bones, quite honestly I don't know. ideally, I'd say FF1. with you saying FF1 is overkill, I'd say the sections of FF1 that included SCBA training, fire behavior, search and rescue techniques, lifting and moving a victum while in a IDLH atmosphere, firefighter survival, signs of flashover/backdraft, and how not to park directly in front of the house or the hydrant. and they would have a full set of PPE and SCBA in their car for use when making an entry.

    remember, they are entering an IDLH, would we let a non-equiped untrained person jump off the fire engine and go inside a burning structure if there were reports of people trapped?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  9. #49
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    Pfire, how would you feel if your husband was a janitor at a local school, and on his way home from work, he saw smoke coming from a building. He broke down the door, entered the building to see if anyone was trapped inside, was overcome by the smoke and died. now you no longer have a husband, and your children don't have a father. oh, by the way, the person that was reported to be trapped in the house was found an hour later at the neighbors. how would you feel about that? and yes, it's the exact same situation, with a different ocupation in questions, and a different outcome.
    Again, this goes back to we don't know how we'd react until faced with a given situation. I'd like to believe that I would be proud of the fact that he was willing to risk himself to save another. Since I don't have a husband I'm thinking hypothetically I'd like to believe that I would react with the grace and dignity that Lisa Beemer did when her husband died while performing an act of bravery (along with several others).

    You are talking about a "perfect" world Dan, one that does not and will not ever exist. Since the beginning of time and until the end of time, people have been and will continue to put themselves at risk to assist others. Yes entering a burning building is dangerous and in a perfect world should not be attempted without proper equipment; BUT it happens. There are people in this world who will risk themselves to aid others. There are people in this world who would not be able to live with themselves if they didn't make an attempt. Life would be nice if we lived in a perfect world, but we don't.

    I'm also a firm believer in "when it's your time, it's your time", whether you die trying to save another or get hit by a bus crossing the street. Nothing you say is going to change my view on this, every time I think of a bystander assisting in a dangerous situation I can see the faces of those 4 MVA victims who would not have made it out of their vehicle alive had it not been for bystanders who put thoughts of their own safety aside to help another. Heroes come in all shapes and sizes Dan, whether their actions are considered stupid or heroic by any one of us, their actions generally help others. Someone has something in their signature about bravery, how it's being scared but doing it anyway, I don't consider anyone a hero, but I do consider a lot of people in various situations to be brave. I'm fairly certain that those who have gone into buildings that are on fire do so to help their fellow man, I don't believe that they are doing it for the the hero cookies the public heaps upon them after the fact.

    If we, as human beings, professions aside; stop putting ourselves in what could be perceived as dangerous situations does that mean that we quit stopping to help those stranded on the side of the hwy, expressway, rural road or whatever. You know I've seen more news articles of people being killed because they stopped to help than I have of people dying because they got someone out of a burning building. At what point do we stop nitpicking the actions of others and be grateful that they were in the right place at the right time and saved a life? Where do you draw the line, when is it considered "safe" to help someone in need? You can't pick and choose situations, they are what they are and when they arise there are those who will act on instinct, it's primal and it's in all of us; some just don't act on it.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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  10. #50
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    Originally posted by gunnyv
    George,
    You're wrong about the jealousy-my dad was a cop in Detroit, I wouldn't touch that job. The Marine Corps let me play with all the weapons I could want. I have plenty of respect for police-so much that I don't want to see them get themselves killed.

    I am in Michigan, but no where near this area. The info I shared is my personal opinion, from what I have seen in the paper and my knowledge of the area-I went to college there and have friends who are FFs in that area.

    All the time means regularly-the cops get major press every time they do it, so they push the envelope. A fire rescue is the fastest way to a valor citation for them. I've seen similar articles in the papers a couple of times in the last year. Can't remember any articles about FF rescues though. My point was that:

    A. Police are not trained for fire SAR, just as we are not trained for hand to hand combat with a deranged criminal.

    B. I'll admit Columbine was a bit over the top. But you didn't address the point-why is everything PD related too dangerous for us, but nothing fire related is too dangerous too them? Why is there a double standard? Are we as a service more interested in our own safety than the PD? Or are we less committed to the safety of the citizens?

    C. When firefighters attempt rescues, they are supposed to be doing so in compliance with OSHA, industry standards etc. I'm sure the deputies went to a police academy before they got their guns. If the cops are going to run in fires, give them the equipment to do it safely.

    D. Lastly-as mentioned, the FDs are short and getting cut-the more the PD does this, the more the FD is injured. The more the FD is cut, the more the PD gets on scene first and plays hero. The PD benefits in the additional $s cut from the FD and sent to PD. Ask the Ann Arbor Police/Fire Chief-he's a cop.
    In other words, your comments hacve zero basis. You have just have a problem with these cops. I don't care what your Dad did for a living.

    BTW, some of the most anti-cop people I kow had fathers who were cops.

  11. #51
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    you have got to be kidding me. I can't believe everyone is saying the person who made the call to OSHA was wrong.

    is this standard practice by you guys? where if the cops pull up, they are the first to go inside?

    in my town, the cops will not help help an EMS crew lift a heavy patient, due to the potential for injury. the EMS crew needs to request the FD. however the cops were told to take the SCBA's out of their cars less than 10 years ago. but they will still go inside if they are first due on a fire.

    I know of one fire (a couple of years ago, entertainment center, TV, VCR, fully involved) where the cop was the the first to arrive, and using an extinguisher out of the truck of his car, knocked down the bulk of it. then the engine (with 5 guys in full turnout gear, with SCBAs) pulled up and pulled a line to extiguish it completely. and that only on that I can recall in recent memory.

    as I have said before, the line between a "hero" and an avoidable tragedy can sometimes be attributed to dumb luck.

    now before GWCFI or anyone else accuses me of being anti-cop, let me say that that's not the case. if they want to go into fires, fine. give them SCBAs, give them full structural turnout gear, and have them take firefighter training courses, such as FF1 and FF2. let them go in with the proper PPE and training so they don't suffer smoke inhalation or burns. Then I'll agree, let them be a hero. but not when they enter protected by their bagde, hat and gun.

    oh, and I hope OSHA fines them millions. this is a dangerous practice, that many law enforcement agencies practice. I would hate for a police officer to have to die for them to stop this dangerous practice.
    Your anti-cop attitude and beliefs are so well established here that your comments have no credibility.

  12. #52
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    so george, because you can't provide a valid response, your just going to say I'm anti-cop? well, I guess your just anti-firefighter and pro-police LODD and here I was thinking you would want to prevent those....
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  13. #53
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    I remember reading a few years ago of some local coppers who succesfully delivered a baby in the street and were photographed by someone doing it- they were disciplined by the Police Force command for not wearing their hats in public....
    Luke

  14. #54
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    To me it all boils down to common sense and that old "risk vs. benefit" thing. The CAFS guy would be happy to hear me say that officers did the right thing.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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    I really dont think this is an issue that can have a blanket statement about police going into a burning building. If there was a fire in the kitchen, and someone was napping in another room, it would be understandable for a cop to go and get them out. If a house was almost fully involved, then no, they should not go in. Police should be given basic understanding of fire situations, like being able to identify backdraft and flashover conditions. Also they should know about ventilation, and how not to make the firefighters job harder by them going in. If I saw someone being assaulted, or a someone being robbed, I would step in even though I am not a cop. Our characteristics that make us emergency responders do not limit our actions to just one job.

  16. #56
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    so george, because you can't provide a valid response, your just going to say I'm anti-cop? well, I guess your just anti-firefighter and pro-police LODD and here I was thinking you would want to prevent those....
    First of all, this is NOT the first time you have posted anti-cop rhetoric and it is not the first time I have called you on it. I refuse to debate this issue anymore. You hate cops. There are more than enough posts in your past to back me up. That is all anyone needs to kow about you and how to judge your posts.

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    Originally posted by Pretender764
    I really dont think this is an issue that can have a blanket statement about police going into a burning building. If there was a fire in the kitchen, and someone was napping in another room, it would be understandable for a cop to go and get them out. If a house was almost fully involved, then no, they should not go in. Police should be given basic understanding of fire situations, like being able to identify backdraft and flashover conditions. Also they should know about ventilation, and how not to make the firefighters job harder by them going in. If I saw someone being assaulted, or a someone being robbed, I would step in even though I am not a cop. Our characteristics that make us emergency responders do not limit our actions to just one job.
    Your post makes alot of sense. But there is a reason why that training doesn't happen. A police academy class in NJ is about 18 weeks or more. There is so much material that is mandated to be taight, that there is no room for anything else (unless of course it were mandated). We actually tried to get a two-hour block of instruction in the county academy here. They were extremely receptive. But it died for the reason cited above.

    As far as jumping into an assault or robbery, just be sure there is no firearm involved. I already explained the unique hazards of a firearm incident. Aside from helping the victim, one of the smartest things you can do is get basic witness info: suspect description, vehicle description, plate number etc.

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    Yeah, I should have made that clearer. If there was a gun or knife involved I would try to put myself in a position to help police afterwards, and keep from getting someone killed.

  19. #59
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    GWCFI,


    Why do you keep calling me a cop hater? Like I said, I LIKE cops.

    BTW, some of the most anti-cop people I kow had fathers who were cops.

    If my dad and his partners had sounded like you, maybe I would have been one of those.

    My posts never even said that I thought they did the wrong thing. The closest I came was in suggesting that their administrations and budgets stand to benefit from these types of actions, while the FD gets cut.

    I was using the situation to bring up a point. As for my comments having zero basis, I read the same article on FH.com that you did, beyond that, how do you know that you know anything more than I do about it?

    Noone has answered the question I really want to talk about:

    why is everything PD related too dangerous for us, but nothing fire related is too dangerous too them? Why is there a double standard? Are we as a service more interested in our own safety than the PD? Or are we less committed to the safety of the citizens?

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    I think many guys are misssing the point in regards to the OSHA investigation.

    Ask oneself what is MIOSHAs "jurisdiction"? Employees while on the clock of their employer. Unless your dept has some regualtions that state you are to always be considered on duty (I can't imagine for insurance reasons that they would) then OFF-DUTY firemen, cops, sanitationmen, Postal Employees, Bankers etc.... can do what ever they want on their time. OSHA has NO jurisdiction over OFF-DUTY behavior.

    Thus the actions of OFF-Duty FF being the same thing as ON-DUTY Police officers doesn't hold any water.

    Remember there is a fine line between a hero who went beyond the call of duty and a funeral.

    Also to be fair...there have been numerous occasions when the members of the FDNY have come to the aid of the NYPD when they were getting attacked by mobs of people. The last such incidnent I remember was in East New York where Ladder Co's 175 and 176 (I think) came to the aid of two female NYPD officers who were having a hard time arresting a large man and a crowd of unrully neighbors were begining to turn on them. 12 men with axes and halligans might not be trained in police work but they sure do make a person think twice about fighting the cops.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- NYPD ESU has a member years ago who tried to rescue his girlfriend in a tenement fire in the East Village neighborhood. He wasn't trained in fire operations. He is no longer with us.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-22-2005 at 05:31 PM.

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