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  1. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    and please, since I'm no cop, explain to me where in the police academy officers are taught to enter burning buildings, without proper protective equipment, and without the proper training? again, if it's in their job description to do that, then give them PPE and an SCBA to keep in the back of their cars, and have them take firefighting training.
    Well, I'm no cop either but I do work for a LE agency and have TONS of respect for my sworn co-workers.

    Now, show me where I said they're taught to enter burning buildings. I said they're trained to stay calm in a crisis. That means that unlike a civilian they're better equipped to analyze a scene and make a risk/reward judgement. I will say this, with the new emphasis on terrrorism and the HAZMAT issues that now common clan labs present, many LEs are far more aware of IDLH environments that we firefighters might want to believe.

    until then, my response is to tell them as I would tell any other non-firefighter who is going into a burning building. stay out, and let the fire department handle it.
    And my response is I don't care if it is the beat cop, the mailman, or the 12 year old paper boy. Anyone that risks their life to save someone else won't be getting any grief from me.


  2. #62
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    Now, show me where I said they're taught to enter burning buildings. I said they're trained to stay calm in a crisis. That means that unlike a civilian they're better equipped to analyze a scene and make a risk/reward judgement. I will say this, with the new emphasis on terrrorism and the HAZMAT issues that now common clan labs present, many LEs are far more aware of IDLH environments that we firefighters might want to believe.
    Staying trained to stay calm doesn't mean they understand what will happen if they open the door to the fire apartment...or vent a window...or conduct a search.

    Air Traffic controlers and Fire Alarm & Police Dispatchers are all trained in remaining calm. Does that mean they are qualified to search and vent a fire apartment. The reason we have public service anouncements to tell people to SHUT THE DOOR is because they don't have the training and expereince to know what to do in a fire.

    I'm a fireman and have been for a number of years, I remain calm and can analize the risk/reward of many things...does that mean I am qualifed to direct airplanes in distress or speak to a person on the phone who has an intruder in thier house? Or does that mean I am capable of making the right decision on wether a guy pointing a gun at me really has a gun and is going to shoot in a matter of seconds? NO it does not.

    As for Officers knowing what an IDLH atmosphere is...I can assure you 99% of the cops(besides those who are vollies) in the precints I work in don't have a clue or care what an IDLH is. In fact this next few weeks I'll do a little impromptu survey and ask every officer I come across on runs.

    This situation and discussion was strangely similar to one I tried to start regarding officers not working in pairs. I heard many excuses as to why police officer could do 90% of their work without a partner...but it seems no one agrees that firemen can do the same...everyone on hear always screams when someone suggests that a fireman perform a task without a partner or officer present.

    Just something to think about.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-22-2005 at 05:52 PM.

  3. #63
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Smile Ladies and Gentlemen.................

    Jeez, Folks. Can't we calm it a bit? I hate to see friends get all wound up over something like this. There are two groups of people in the world, those who are trained and equipped to rush into burning buildings, and those who aren't. Sometimes, one of "those who aren't" finds him/herself in a position to attempt a Rescue from a burning building, and they do so. GOOD FOR THEM! This country is being ruined by idiots like whoever complained about the situation that started this thread. Like a couple who have posted here already, I found myself crawling into a house fire to look for the invalid lady who lived there. PPE? No, I was in my wife's car. Alone? No, Laura (my wife) had my back, and she'd follow me to hell and back if necessary. What's the point? We were two people going down the street, and saw a Fire. We did what had to be done. Nothing more, Nothing less. And we'd do it again tomorrow, if we had to. There is no excuse for not caring about the life of another human being. At least, not in our lives, anyway. I'm only saying this once, and it is not negotiable: Anyone who puts 2in, 2out, OSHA Compliance, and any other BS ahead of saving a life is a spineless jerk who should not be part of our brotherhood.
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  4. #64
    Forum Member fflynn17's Avatar
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    What hwoods said, but replace wife with husband.

    Situations cannot be litgated.
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  5. #65
    MembersZone Subscriber SIGNAL99COM's Avatar
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    OK, let's turn the tables and think about it this way.....

    Your engine company is dispatched to a shots fired call with a hostage situation in place. One female hostage is shot upstairs on the second floor.

    The crew arrives before police do. This situation being very dangerous, your crew decides to try and save a life even though they are not properly dressed nor trained to enter the building under these circumstances.

    We don't even have to go any further than this. Tell me that you wouldn't loose your job or get demoted if you did this and didn't wait for the proper authorities?
    Chris Shields
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  6. #66
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    I dont care what the coppers do as long as they QUIT PARKING THEIR CARS IN FRONT OF BURNING BUILDINGS ! This happens all the time around here.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  7. #67
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SIGNAL99COM
    OK, let's turn the tables and think about it this way.....

    Your engine company is dispatched to a shots fired call with a hostage situation in place. One female hostage is shot upstairs on the second floor.

    The crew arrives before police do. This situation being very dangerous, your crew decides to try and save a life even though they are not properly dressed nor trained to enter the building under these circumstances.

    We don't even have to go any further than this. Tell me that you wouldn't loose your job or get demoted if you did this and didn't wait for the proper authorities?
    Apples and oranges....... I don't even need to go any farther with it.........

    Harve, excellent post.........

    I can't believe what some of the ppeople on here are saying....... I've learned a lot about some of you........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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  8. #68
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    In light of hwoods' post, let me add this anecdote.

    Several years ago, I lived in a garden apt. complex. One night, about midnight, a call came in for an alarm activation in the building next to mine. Got dressed and observed smoke coming from the basement door. Cop arrives, I have no gear. We look in the door and see a tire on the floor burning. OK, no big deal. It's an arson, we'll deal with it.

    Next sound I hear is coughing from inside the basement. The cop and I belly in, locate a homeless mutt lying on the floor. We drag him out. He decides at this point that he did not desire the services of a police officer and a fire fighter. He decided he wanted to fight. He took a pretty good beating as he was resisting arrest. He ends up being charged with burglary, arson, criminal trespass and probation violation. He ended up spending a couple of years in prison.

    Then MANY years ago, I was on an apparatus riding up the main drag when we observed a police officer rolling around on the floor with a male. Stopped the apparatus and we went to the aid of the officer.

    So yes, I have been there. Both sides. Yes, it was a risk, but a calculated risk. Yes, I would do it again.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 02-22-2005 at 08:25 PM.

  9. #69
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default I would like to add..

    I dont think for a minute that a P.O. goes inside a burning building to "upstage the firemen" just like I dont think firefighters are "jealous" of the P.D. when they help evacuate a building or even perform a rescue.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  10. #70
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    Default Re: I would like to add..

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    I dont think for a minute that a P.O. goes inside a burning building to "upstage the firemen" just like I dont think firefighters are "jealous" of the P.D. when they help evacuate a building or even perform a rescue.
    If I may add to your observation, Mikey...

    If it weren't for the PD rushing in and banging on doors to evacuate a burning building, we would have a lot more civilian victims and more FF LODD's!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-22-2005 at 09:52 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  11. #71
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    Default Re: I would like to add..

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    I dont think for a minute that a P.O. goes inside a burning building to "upstage the firemen" just like I dont think firefighters are "jealous" of the P.D. when they help evacuate a building or even perform a rescue.
    I have to disagree on the jealousy part. If you go back and read that one gentleman's post, he is clearly in envy of the police making "all the rescues". In fact, they do it "all the time". That is pure jealousy.

  12. #72
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    Maybe you're reading more into his posts than is there George.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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  13. #73
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    You'll notice that no one is complaining here about this.

    02/23/05 - Posted from the Daily Record newsroom
    Morristown police officers honored for saving lives
    Heroism, quick thinking recognized by council

    By Eugene Mulero, Daily Record

    MORRISTOWN -- They saved people from a burning building, a domestic dispute and an aggravated assault and on Tuesday night, the council recognized several police officers for exemplary efforts and quick thinking in dangerous situations.

    Police Chief Peter Demnitz, during a ceremony at the start of the council meeting, recounted how Lt. Steven Sarinelli, and Patrolmen Yeisen De Los Santos, Steuart Greer and Carmine Caponegro rescued second-floor tenants during a March 25 fire at Rago Bros. shoe and leather shop on Speedwell Avenue.

    "Officers kicked in locked doors to arouse residents and lead them to safety," Demnitz said.

    Tom Rago, one of the shop owners, thanked the chief and the officers for their commitment to service at Tuesday's ceremony. "I'm thankful nobody was killed in my building," Rago said. "They saved lives."

    Also honored were Patrolwoman DeAnna Dietrich and Patrolmen Chuck Seaberg, Jeffrey Griffin, Bruce Summers, Richard Rispoli and Darnell Richardson who had rushed to the home of a man who had called police saying he was going to kill his girlfriend on Aug. 17, 2003. Demnitz said the officers confronted the man who was holding two large kitchen knives. The man then threatened the officers.

    Using pepper spray and their nightsticks, the officers apprehended the man, who had stabbed himself several times in the abdomen.

    The officers had "a legal right to fire their guns to stop the assault," Demnitz said. "(Instead, officers) resorted to other uses of force."

    Finally, Patrolwoman Beverly Downey, Patrolmen Richard Lamperti, Vito Filomeno, Michael Andrisano, and Detective Michael Buckley and Caponegro saved a woman who was shot July 19, 2003. When police arrived at the victim's home, they found one person dead next to the injured woman.

    "Officers made split-second decisions under dangerous conditions," Demnitz said. Police searched for the shooter, while they assisted the woman, who was eventually treated by an emergency medical team.

    "Thank you to all the officers, the (Morristown) Ambulance Squad members and their family and friends that support them," Demnitz said.

    After the presentation, the officers and their families gathered at town hall's lobby area.

    "We were doing our job," De Los Santos said. "It's nice to be there and help people when they need us most."

    Dietrich added: "We have a great feeling of pride."


    You'll also notice that no one said they did nit to upstage the FD.

  14. #74
    Forum Member Tillerman17's Avatar
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    These guys did the right thing, This is a no brainer!!!

  15. #75
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    we should all get together and pass the plate to pay off the osha fines fore these police officers. that would really p!ss off the little sh!# who got his panties in a wad and made the anonymous complaint!!!

  16. #76
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    Originally posted by SIGNAL99COM
    OK, let's turn the tables and think about it this way.....

    Your engine company is dispatched to a shots fired call with a hostage situation in place. One female hostage is shot upstairs on the second floor.

    The crew arrives before police do. This situation being very dangerous, your crew decides to try and save a life even though they are not properly dressed nor trained to enter the building under these circumstances.

    We don't even have to go any further than this. Tell me that you wouldn't loose your job or get demoted if you did this and didn't wait for the proper authorities?
    by the way, something very similar to this did happen in jackson ms about eight years ago. my captain got a commendation for it. sometimes you just do the right thing and say to hell with the rest.
    Last edited by peon30; 02-23-2005 at 07:23 AM.

  17. #77
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Originally posted by firenresq77
    Apples and oranges....... I don't even need to go any farther with it.........
    hmm apples and oranges? a member of emergency services entering a situation where they aren't trained to be in, without the proper equipment, in hopes of saving someone's life. and how is it so different than the current situation?

    Originally posted by peon30
    by the way, something very similar to this did happen in jackson ms about eight years ago. my captain got a commendation for it. sometimes you just do the right thing and say to hell with the rest.
    hey peon, if your captain had gotten shot, or one of his crew had gotten killed while attempting the rescue, do you think he (the captain) would still have recieved the commendation?

    FFFred said it even better that I did, there is a fine line between a hero who went beyond the call of duty and a funeral.

    btw george, I guess everyone else who disgrees with you on this topic is anti-cop too?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  18. #78
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    GWCFI,

    !Posted by GWCFI: I have to disagree on the jealousy part. If you go back and read that one gentleman's post, he is clearly in envy of the police making "all the rescues". In fact, they do it "all the time". That is pure jealousy.
    Based on those two phrases, you have assumed I am a cop hater and jealous. Hey, if I wanted to be a cop, I would have dropped the last 10 questions on the civil service exam. -That was a joke. At least you called me a 'gentleman' that time.

    What I was trying to express is the "perception"that is being created by the media in that area. All the positive press for the rescues the PD has made, combined with a lack of knowledge of the resources available to the FDs in that area, is causing further cuts to the FDs. Why budget for an FD if the cops can do that too? If they want to go the PSO route, good for them. But if they are going to rely on the PD to make fire rescues, then they should be appropriately trained and equipped for that job. Before one of the officers gets killed.

    A captain recently died in a fire on that side of the state. A week after his death, the Twp spent $200k on thermal imagers and new SCBA. The FD asked for them for years without success. Noone gets equipped until someone dies. Do you want it to be a cop next? I don't-and I'm the one that "hates" cops!

  19. #79
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    I, personally, as a Chief, have written commendation letters to my Town Council and Police Chief for the actions of police officers at fire scenes.

    A simple question....

    Why are we in the fire service?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  20. #80
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    hmm apples and oranges? a member of emergency services entering a situation where they aren't trained to be in, without the proper equipment, in hopes of saving someone's life. and how is it so different than the current situation?

    Dan, I'm not even goingto waste my time on this. You like to argue with people on here and you are not going to sucker me in. How about you just go get your 16 year old ambulance driver from the "progressive" FD and have him go in.....
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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