1. #76
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    mississippi
    Posts
    84

    Default

    Originally posted by SIGNAL99COM
    OK, let's turn the tables and think about it this way.....

    Your engine company is dispatched to a shots fired call with a hostage situation in place. One female hostage is shot upstairs on the second floor.

    The crew arrives before police do. This situation being very dangerous, your crew decides to try and save a life even though they are not properly dressed nor trained to enter the building under these circumstances.

    We don't even have to go any further than this. Tell me that you wouldn't loose your job or get demoted if you did this and didn't wait for the proper authorities?
    by the way, something very similar to this did happen in jackson ms about eight years ago. my captain got a commendation for it. sometimes you just do the right thing and say to hell with the rest.
    Last edited by peon30; 02-23-2005 at 07:23 AM.

  2. #77
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Originally posted by firenresq77
    Apples and oranges....... I don't even need to go any farther with it.........
    hmm apples and oranges? a member of emergency services entering a situation where they aren't trained to be in, without the proper equipment, in hopes of saving someone's life. and how is it so different than the current situation?

    Originally posted by peon30
    by the way, something very similar to this did happen in jackson ms about eight years ago. my captain got a commendation for it. sometimes you just do the right thing and say to hell with the rest.
    hey peon, if your captain had gotten shot, or one of his crew had gotten killed while attempting the rescue, do you think he (the captain) would still have recieved the commendation?

    FFFred said it even better that I did, there is a fine line between a hero who went beyond the call of duty and a funeral.

    btw george, I guess everyone else who disgrees with you on this topic is anti-cop too?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  3. #78
    Forum Member
    gunnyv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    GWCFI,

    !Posted by GWCFI: I have to disagree on the jealousy part. If you go back and read that one gentleman's post, he is clearly in envy of the police making "all the rescues". In fact, they do it "all the time". That is pure jealousy.
    Based on those two phrases, you have assumed I am a cop hater and jealous. Hey, if I wanted to be a cop, I would have dropped the last 10 questions on the civil service exam. -That was a joke. At least you called me a 'gentleman' that time.

    What I was trying to express is the "perception"that is being created by the media in that area. All the positive press for the rescues the PD has made, combined with a lack of knowledge of the resources available to the FDs in that area, is causing further cuts to the FDs. Why budget for an FD if the cops can do that too? If they want to go the PSO route, good for them. But if they are going to rely on the PD to make fire rescues, then they should be appropriately trained and equipped for that job. Before one of the officers gets killed.

    A captain recently died in a fire on that side of the state. A week after his death, the Twp spent $200k on thermal imagers and new SCBA. The FD asked for them for years without success. Noone gets equipped until someone dies. Do you want it to be a cop next? I don't-and I'm the one that "hates" cops!

  4. #79
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    I, personally, as a Chief, have written commendation letters to my Town Council and Police Chief for the actions of police officers at fire scenes.

    A simple question....

    Why are we in the fire service?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #80
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Originally posted by DrParasite
    hmm apples and oranges? a member of emergency services entering a situation where they aren't trained to be in, without the proper equipment, in hopes of saving someone's life. and how is it so different than the current situation?

    Dan, I'm not even goingto waste my time on this. You like to argue with people on here and you are not going to sucker me in. How about you just go get your 16 year old ambulance driver from the "progressive" FD and have him go in.....
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  6. #81
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Salem, Massachusetts
    Posts
    422

    Default Different view of things

    Has anybody thought that the complaint could have been filed by one of their own? It's possible that another officer who would not have been so eager to run in, thinks those that did went well beyond their job discription and he doesn't want to be expected to do so himself in the future.Unlikely,but just a thought. ------------------------------------------ Also,I think it's far more likely that the complaint was filed because the county attorneys got involved. To them, this exposed the jurisdiction to a potential lawsuit because the employees involved were not sufficiently trained or protected(PPE).What if the male victim hurt HIS back while being helped by the officer? I can quarantee that the county's attorneys don't care if lives were saved because of the quick decisions of these officers. All they focus on is that these decisions cost the county in medical bills ( smoke inhalation and a back injury)and higher workmans comp. rates.

  7. #82
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    I dont care what the coppers do as long as they QUIT PARKING THEIR CARS IN FRONT OF BURNING BUILDINGS ! This happens all the time around here.
    No doubt...that goes for campus security, too!

  8. #83
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    94

    Default

    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    No doubt...that goes for campus security, too!
    Border Patrol up here who have nothing to do like to respond to fires and park in the way of the trucks so they can get a good view of the fire.

  9. #84
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by gunnyv
    GWCFI,

    !Posted by GWCFI: I have to disagree on the jealousy part. If you go back and read that one gentleman's post, he is clearly in envy of the police making "all the rescues". In fact, they do it "all the time". That is pure jealousy.
    Based on those two phrases, you have assumed I am a cop hater and jealous. Hey, if I wanted to be a cop, I would have dropped the last 10 questions on the civil service exam. -That was a joke. At least you called me a 'gentleman' that time.

    What I was trying to express is the "perception"that is being created by the media in that area. All the positive press for the rescues the PD has made, combined with a lack of knowledge of the resources available to the FDs in that area, is causing further cuts to the FDs. Why budget for an FD if the cops can do that too? If they want to go the PSO route, good for them. But if they are going to rely on the PD to make fire rescues, then they should be appropriately trained and equipped for that job. Before one of the officers gets killed.

    A captain recently died in a fire on that side of the state. A week after his death, the Twp spent $200k on thermal imagers and new SCBA. The FD asked for them for years without success. Noone gets equipped until someone dies. Do you want it to be a cop next? I don't-and I'm the one that "hates" cops!
    I don't have to assume that you are anti-cop. The tone and content of your post said it all.

    No one is "relying" on the police to make rescues anymore than they rely on the police to deliver babies and pull kids out of the deep end of a pool. They are on the street and they are usually (in most places) in a position to be there before the FD. They do what they do because they have exactly the same motivation as the fire service...life safety. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I would also venture to guess that there are very fwe of you who realize how much "mandatory" training a police officer has to go through. Use of Force, pursuit policy, right to know, blood borne pathogens, domestic violence, haz mat awareness... the list is endless. The PD is not going to train the cops to use turnout gear that will, in all likelihood, never be used in a fiure situation. The same way they are not going to train EMT's to use Tazers.

    Asking me if I want a cop to die is as insulting and idiotic as a post (or poster) can get.

    BTW, I don't think that everyone who disagrees with me is a cop hater. But there are those, like Dan, who have gone out of their way to establish a history of anti-cop sentiment. They are anti-cop.

  10. #85
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default hey norm



    your comparing apples to oranges. nuff said.

    and backpeddle all you want, I think others are finally seeing you for who you really are and how you really act when someone attempts to disagree with the all knowing GWCFI
    Last edited by DrParasite; 02-23-2005 at 03:24 PM.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  11. #86
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default Re: hey norm

    Originally posted by DrParasite


    your comparing apples to oranges. nuff said.

    and backpeddle all you want, I think others are finally seeing you for who you really are and how you really act
    Me? Backpeddle? That's a good one.

    Just exactly who are the "others"?

  12. #87
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    oh, I'm sorry. you weren't backpeddling, you were just making inaccurate accusations about a person who thinks differently than you do. sorry, my mistake. and just reread your previous posts to see who you are accusing of being anti-cop. again, untrue allegations.

    and 77, I stated how they weren't apples and oranges, and stated exactly why the situation given by another poster was the exact same thing. I havn't seen how you can even think they are so vastly different. please, educate me, so I can understand your way of thinking.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  13. #88
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Exclamation

    Are you related to thNozzleman? Your posts are taking on his persona!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #89
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    197

    Default

    OK, OK, Ladies and Gentlemen, can I have everybody's attention, please. I have been following this and several other threads for awhile now, without comment. It seems that some of you will argue just for the sake of arguing, and it goes downhill from there. I will, from now on, issue a short, to the point dissertation on my take of the whole situation. For this particular one, here it is. "The LEOs/deputies done good!" There, was that so hard? Please stay tuned for more of Leroy's nuggets of wisdom. Thank-you, that is all.
    Leroy140 (yes, THAT Leroy)
    Fairfield, CT, Local 1426
    IACOJ Tillerman

  15. #90
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #91
    MembersZone Subscriber
    MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    Well... I must say, when I first posted this thread I for one did not get the responses that I expected, and I will leave that at that.

    On a slightly different note, I most certainly did not expect to create a mudslinging storm (only cuz I can't use the word that REALLY comes to mind LOL ) that has ensued.

    I am usually proud of myself for finding a topic that will garner pages and pages of discussion, but this time I am not so sure. There have been some great comments and criticsms made that have given me pause for thought, and I thank those of you who gave that. However, if we can keep the discussion to the original topic that would be just wonderful.

    To be honest, in my opinion going into a burning structure without the proper gear (or any other situation - I would not take on an armed suspect without backup either - not to mention I AM NOT TRAINED FOR IT) is not a real great idea. It worked out in favour of everyone.... this time...........

    I know that Pfire made reference to an incident in our district last summer in which 6 persons did some very heroic actions to save a family in dire need. Had they not, our story would have been much more tragic than the loss of only one life in the end. And likely our entire station would still be in group therapy.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  17. #92
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    193

    Default

    I've seen cops at fires in the next township ride with air-packs in their cars and nomex hoods...that's it. No turnouts. It looked a little ridiculous, and the chief of that fd flipped out and the practice soon stopped.

    Why did they do it? Maybe to give them a small measure of protection,, knowing that they would probably be going in anyway.

    Not to hijack the thread, but this question has always made me wonder:
    Why do PD's respond to fire calls? Not all do. A friend,a police officer in Fla., does not respond unless to a medical call resulting from an assault, domestic, etc.

    They only get called to fire scenes after the fact, sometimes, for traffic. This is not a small PD. This dept. just doesn't go as a matter of policy. Why?

  18. #93
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    Why do PD's respond to fire calls?
    In my area, because it's part of their job. "To protect life." That means, they will respond to a fire call and will try to protect people, whether it means keeping bystanders out of the way, or possibly entering the building to pull someone out. Their job is to help people when they need it, isn't that kind of what the fire service is about also? Helping people?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #94
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    100

    Default Joint Training

    Shouldn't we be proactive in our departments to offer training for the police departments in our area so that they know what to do and what not to do when a fire or ems emergency happens? Sounds like we are missing the opportunity, now that we know the problem. Our job is to teach through fire prevention as well as fire suppression.

  20. #95
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    Here's another forum y'all need to look at.......... Especially for those of you who are having issues with the PD responding on FD calls and making the saves.........

    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=67132
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  21. #96
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    193

    Default

    In my area, because it's part of their job. "To protect life."
    You're right. In my area as well. Our local PD responds to all calls with us, usually getting there first. We have always had a great relationship with them. (Even when they make a grab) And, btw, on the rare occasion that it does happen, we have gone out of our way to make a nice presentation to the officer(s) at our annual awards ceremony. And yes, most of these actions occured without PPE.

    My question, if anyone can answer it, was why this Fla. dept. opts out of responding to fire calls. They are both paid services. Could there have been an incident in the past? I could never get my buddy to give me an answer, because he himself didn't know.

  22. #97
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default Re: Joint Training

    Originally posted by bummer
    Shouldn't we be proactive in our departments to offer training for the police departments in our area so that they know what to do and what not to do when a fire or ems emergency happens? Sounds like we are missing the opportunity, now that we know the problem. Our job is to teach through fire prevention as well as fire suppression.
    That is an outstanding and very intelligent response. Are you going to try it?

  23. #98
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    I've seen cops at fires in the next township ride with air-packs in their cars and nomex hoods...that's it. No turnouts. It looked a little ridiculous, and the chief of that fd flipped out and the practice soon stopped.
    If a PD is going to issue any type of respiratory protection to their officers, they have to have the same RPP that you have to.

    We issued 1300 CBRN APR's to every police officer in the county. They were all required to go through baseline medical screening, fit-testing and training. So far, so good.

  24. #99
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Originally posted by firenresq77
    Here's another forum y'all need to look at.......... Especially for those of you who are having issues with the PD responding on FD calls and making the saves.........

    http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=67132
    Apples and oranges....... I don't even need to go any farther with it.........
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  25. #100
    Forum Member
    PFire23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    On a rock, surrounded by water
    Posts
    1,845

    Default

    Dan,
    You are arguing that no one but a FF should go into a burning building and on the flip side no one but a LEO should deal with, oh let's say, an assault in progress.

    BUT........

    The bottom line is that we ALL got into this biz because we like to help others, we WANT to help others..... it's in our nature to do whatever we can to preserve life, among other things. You can "apples and oranges" this to death and not ever change a thing. People are always going to be willing to put themselves in danger to save others. Most people are never going to be able to stand by and watch someone die, watch a house burn knowing that there are people inside, or watch some jerk beat the crap out of a woman on the street, etc.

    As I've said before, you are talking "perfect world" scenarios, NOT ever going to happen. And as others have stated, most people will know the inherent dangers and not go in too far, and I stated that most victims are found near exits or windows. How many eye witness accounts have you ever read where the statement "I tried to go in but it was too hot, too smokey, too full of fire....... "; people aren't stupid, and at the end of the day each individuals own survival instinct will take over and they will realize their limitations.

    But keep arguing though, everytime you say "apples and oranges" it makes me want fruit, and fruit is good for me
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register