1. #26
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    Originally posted by mcaldwell


    It looks like a Stihl from here.
    You are of course correct, but Shihl Hiarcut just doesnt have the same ring to it...

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  2. #27
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    We just purchased new MSA MMR packs with their new airframe harness. MSA has made some improvement over the last 3 years that are very nice. Of course I have always been an MSA fan. NFPA compliant pack, voice amp, intergrated PASS, quick fill on chest strap, swivel lumbar pad, chest strap, and extra carbon fiber bottle (30 min. 4500psi) cost $3500. In our area it either MSA or Scott.

  3. #28
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    Happend across this on the web:

    Global Secure Safety Products Inc. acquired the assets of CairnsAIR Inc., a supplier of a complete line of patented, self-contained-breathing-apparatus ("SCBA") products and accessories for emergency response professionals. As a technology leader for over a decade, the company was one of the first to develop a patented heads-up device (HUD), an innovation that has now become an industry standard.
    --------------------------------------
    Seems like Cairns got bought out.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  4. #29
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    Samson...

    My perspective on the use of SCBA and beards has nothing to do with my geographic location. It has to do with compliance with standards and responsibility to protect the firefighters I serve with.

    Of course there is a major difference between wildland firefighters and structural firefighters and if you are saying that your bearded wildland firefighters are not structural firefighters that is one thing.

    But... if they double as structural firefighters and do mask up and do go interior on occasion just be aware of the liability. There is no way you will ever be able to justify that in a court of law. Especially if there is a well known culture in your area of looking the other way in regards to beards and masks.

    In the volly FD I am a member of it is very simple. No mask if you have any hair that interferes with the seal of the mask. We do have a couple of hold outs that have goatees and once again they are not allowed to mask up. We do not have your wildland issues and perhaps if we did we would have satelite wildland stations to deal with it and seperate wildland firefighters. Today you might be fighting a structural fire, tomorrow wildland and the next doing extrication. Everyone is crosstrained to do it all and mask use is part of that.

    I don't wish for this to become another major battle between us. I don't run your FD and you don't run mine. I can tell you Wisconsin is quite specific about COM 30 and the adoption of the NFPA Standard applying to SCBA. So we choose to be as complient as we can be. Do all of the FD's in this area? Nope. But again I am not an officer in those departments.

    FyredUp

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    We have had ISI Vikings for ever we are a low call volume dept. If you want to you can email me and ask any questions you want. iceman_87_o5@yahoo.com
    "Let's Roll." Todd Beamer 9/11 first soldier in the war on terror

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands ONE NATION UNDER GOD indivisible,with liberty, and justice for all.

    I.A.C.O.J. Probie and darn proud of it.

  6. #31
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    Originally posted by FyredUp
    Samson...

    My perspective on the use of SCBA and beards has nothing to do with my geographic location. It has to do with compliance with standards and responsibility to protect the firefighters I serve with.

    Of course there is a major difference between wildland firefighters and structural firefighters and if you are saying that your bearded wildland firefighters are not structural firefighters that is one thing.

    snip...

    FyredUp
    Yes, thats what I am saying. We have need of a literal army of wildland FFs some years. A lot of them have no interest and often no training in structure firefighting.

    However the lines are starting to blur as the urban interface continues to expand. We are starting to get more and more dual dicipline FFs each year, not just in my specific area, but in the State of MT as a whole.

    Dont worry though, if people are going to be packing up they are not allowed to do it with beards.

    On the interface thing. There have been more then a few times where SCBAs have been a very nice thing to have when making a defensive stand against a wildfire running into a set of structures. You can only eat so much smoke, even natural smoke. We have made the move to 45 minute bottles. That is enough air to get you through the realy thick stuff. We have hot shields as well, but the SCBA is the next level of course. Its incredible how much more effective you can be when you eyes and lungs arent burning from inhaling a few pine trees worth of smoke!!!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    As for your questions. We have the Dreager PSS100 and hate them.
    This pack does not hold up and we have had problems with back frame breakage and masks freezing up. The masks fog up almost instantly and work is difficult. From a RIT standpoint I understand they are making changes but the model we have is almost impossible to utilize for RIT. We looked at Scott and MSA and decided against both. The dreager was more comfortable. We didnt look at ISI but feel it was a mistake. Neighboring Departments have ISI and have had no problems with them.
    Along with many in the state of Michigan. With minimal moving parts to fail the unit is nice and workable. The BB is conceiled inside for protection. With the airswitch mask the key is to keep it clean. If you do that it will continue to work. Best thing to do is to get eval units from the different manufactures and try them out. Use it and abuse it to find what works for you. Every department is different and what works for me might not suit you. I would reccommend at least two eval units from each that you choose to try.
    Keep the two together and work as teams to reduce problems with different packs. If you turn on the MSA's next to each other in the truck you might get communication problems from the blue tooth tech. Also realize that the batteries are different some have up to 3 or 4 different batteries. What a pain!!!

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    Out of curiousity,why did you not consider Scott or MSA, two of the top rated packs in the country? I'm always interested in why someone doesn't "consider" a battle proven pack. T.C.

  9. #34
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    Default looking at all of them

    we are looking at all the brands. Have only seen scott and ISI so far. Got a date with the draeger guy and the MSA guy. I just have no knowledge of the ISI pack. The pack looks ok but I just dont want to take the sales persons word. I want imput from the guys that have used them.
    David Jacobson
    Chief Fairmount Fire dept.
    Faiirmount ND 58030

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    IMHO stay the heck away from ISI, we have had them (Magnums) for about 8 years now and have had continual problems. Air switchs break if you look at them the wrong way, exhalation valves stick big time the bottle retaining latch is garbage, since been replaced by a plastic flip catch thats junk, wistles freeze up, regs freeze up leaving you gasping for air, turnaround time for parts is brutaly long, and now getting very expensive. What else do you want to know about ISI???? We are changing out this year and are only looking at MSA and Scott. Looked at Dreager but did not like the big peice of crap that they had hanging off the bottom left side for the RIC connection. If you want my advice stick to the 2 manafactures that have been around and have proven themselves.

  11. #36
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    Originally posted by LACAPT
    If you want my advice stick to the 2 manafactures that have been around and have proven themselves.
    I can't/won't knock either Scott or MSA because they are excellent systems, but to correct you, Draeger is actually one of the worlds largest manufacturers of industrial and firefighting SCBA. They are over 100 years old (older than both MSA & Scott), and I'd say they are established.

    I don't know where to find the numbers, but I'm sure there are just as many FF's around the world using Draegar as either of the other two.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Mcaldwell you may be right about the numbers on Dreager around the world, I don't think they are as popular as Scott or MSa in North America. Regardless, I still don't like Dreager much.

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    Default isi digital viking

    we got those last year and when they work you can't beat them. however we do weekly maintance on ours and we don't even use them in real situations maybe once a month and we have problems with the batteries dying and we have used all types of them. and the straps break alot. but like i said when they work you can't beat em. if you do go with the isi, just make sure to get the cable to hook up to whatever type of handheld radio your dept. uses we have a problem with the voice vector and our radio's. either one of them or both will become complete static during fires and you lose all radio communications.

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    Default Late...

    Sorry I am late to the party, but SCOTT is #1. DONE DEAL.
    Please dont waste your money on the copy cat, new to the
    market SCBAs.

    Scott is the way to go for comfort and function. I like the
    fact I can have my mask on enroute and sTEP off of an engine
    and click in if I need to. Or just go to work and have the
    option to click in when I need to. The picture below will
    show what I mean.

    "TIME TO SCOTT UP BABY!"

    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-28-2005 at 07:34 PM.

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    CALFFBOU, the new MSA's do the same thing.

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    Default So?

    Originally posted by SSHANK42
    CALFFBOU, the new MSA's do the same thing.
    And who's design did they copy?

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    With your answer I am assuming Scott. What companies design does every manufacture use for the RIT fitting ? On the same line, can a Scott airpack with the RIT fiitng donate air to another airpack? I am wondering because a couple of departments in our county has Scott packs. I know that this is not a good idea to do but could be usefull to buy the down ff a couple of minutes until a RIT pack can be brought to him. If a department would buy either Scott or Msa SCBA's they want go wrong. This type of banter could and will go on among ff as long as both companies stay in bussiness. I will use either one as long as I don't cough up soot after a fire. I have not used the Scott but other's that have and swear to them are good enough for me.
    Last edited by SSHANK42; 03-01-2005 at 03:29 AM.

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    Your Rit fittings are the same regardless of mfg.Why,'cause I might be coming in my Scott to get your Msa untangled.Or visa versa.T.C.

  19. #44
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    Calffbou, does it really make a diffence as to who's design they copied, after all is copying not the highest form of flattery. Scott does have a very good scba but IMHO MSA can go toe to toe with them, in the end I beleive its a matter of preference.

  20. #45
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    Well, lets firgure out who had the first mask mounted docking regulator, thats who they all copied when that change was made.

    You can mask up and be ready to switch to air with all of the modern SCBAs as far as I know. Its not a Scott only trait.

    MSA, Drager, Scott, Survivair all basicaly work the same, pop the regulator in to the mask.

    ISI and Interspiro have airswitched and built in mask regulators.

    Not quite sure how Cairns/Global Pioneer works.

    Break...

    Here is some history of SCBAs that I googled:

    ----------------------------------------

    II. Development of SCBA

    The history of the development of self-contained breathing apparatus goes quite far back in time, though in the early days most of the attention was given to designing a unit to protect firemen from smoke inhalation.

    One such design for firemen dates back to about 1825 when the "smoke filter" was used. It consisted of a leather hood and a hose that was strapped to one of the wearer's leg. It did not contain its own supply of oxygen. Rather, it was designed so that when the wearer inhaled from inside the hood, air would be drawn up through the hose.

    The idea behind this design was that the best air during a fire is closest to the floor. The hose and hood was intended to provide this better air to the firemen as they worked in smoke.

    Soon after, equipment was designed to provide the firemen with good safe air to breathe for short periods of time. One such design was the "supplied air suit" which was filled with fresh air to breathe.

    Another design for firefighters was a bag-like unit filled with fresh air and carried on one's back, much like some of today's units.

    Underwater divers also used some of the first self contained breathing apparatus developed.

    Then, in 1853, self-contained breathing apparatus was introduced for use in the mines by a Professor Schwann of Belgium. In that year, Schwann entered a self-contained breathing apparatus in a competition of the Belgian Academy of Science, and exhibited it at an industrial fair in Belgium.

    In 1880, the original Fleuss apparatus was introduced in England, and in 1903 the original Draeger apparatus was developed in Germany.

    In the United States, breathing apparatus were introduced in 1907 when five Draeger units were purchased by the Boston and Montana Mining Company in Butte, Montana.

    Records show that also in 1907, apparatus were first used to fight fires and explore ahead of fresh air in the mines:

    1. In October or November of 1907, Draeger apparatus were used by a crew of men during the fighting and sealing of a mine fire at the Minnie Healy Mine of the Boston and Montana Mining and Smeiting Company in Butte, Montana.
    2. On December 6, two Draeger apparatus were used to explore ahead of fresh air after an explosion in the Monongah Mine of the Consolidated Coal Company in Monongah. West Virginia.
    3. On December 19, apparatus were used after an explosion in the Darr Mine of the Pittsburgh Coal Company in Jacobs Creek, Pennsylvania.

    In 1910, the Bureau of Mines was established. The Bureau began equipping mine rescue railroad cars and stations with apparatus and began training miners in the use and care of the breathing apparatus. Thus, the equipment necessary for rescue work and the trained teams to use it gradually became more available to the mines.

    At first, all the apparatus used in this country were imported from Europe. Then in 1918, the Gibbs apparatus was designed and manufacture. This was followed by the Paul in 1920 and the McCaa in 1927. These early American-made apparatus were designed for 2-hour use.

    The development of self-contained breathing apparatus has continued to progress through the years. A number of different manufacturers are now producing apparatus that are approved to be used for periods of 2, 3, and 4 hours at a time. Among these apparatus commonly used for mine rescue work are the Draeger BG 174, the Aerolox, and the Scott Rescue-Pak.

    ----------------------------------------
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    I cant seem to find hard numbers but from what I gather so far it seems Drager is the most used SCBA worldwide. It is also the oldest breathing apparatus manufacturer.

    Another cool thing about Drager I have found out is that the Navy SEAL teams use Drager rebreathers/dive gear.

    The other SCBA brands we forgot to discuss are North ( ) and IIRC Kawasaki Heavy Industries. I doubt the Kawasaki is even available outside Asia, and North has got to be biggest POS bar none.

    Are there any other brands missing?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Default just for the record

    just for the record draeger was out way before scott, drager was the first scba created, even though it was created in germany!
    michael umphrey
    captain higgins twp fire/rescue/ems
    roscommon,mi

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    click in if I need to. Or just go to work and have the option to click in when I need to
    I'll take my quicker/simpler Surivair mask mounted regulator over the Scott any day - no lining up, no twisting, just push it on in any orientation. (although, I have heard they are downgrading to the "need to line it up the right way" style )
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Regardless of any of our brand loyalty, at the end of the day I think the principles for any significant purchase like SCBA are the same.

    1. Determine your department's functional needs.
    2. Determine any interoperability needs.
    3. Determine your departments product support needs.
    4. Determine the suitable candidate products.
    5. Shop around for the most reputable suppliers.
    6. Demo all the candidate products (or as many as possible/feasible).
    7. Analyse the products in-depth.
    8. Compare your findings by manufacturer and supplier.
    9. Haggle and make your purchase decision.
    10. Buy the product, and train, train, train.
    (11. Make sure you get some good schwag from the salesman )

    Anyone who makes a large purchase without doing all the research is doing there crew and community a disservice. This site can be a valuable step in that research, but certainly don't take our word alone.

    Have fun with it.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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    And for another record,Scott has protected me for 37 years and will be protecting me and mine until such point as I see fit to retire.I for one,have no intention of leaving a company with a proven track record of superior service and reliability to try another.I find Scotts easy to use,easy to train new personnel on,easy to maintain,and very cost effective in terms of money spent for service rendered.In our area there are a lot of Scotts,a few MSA,even fewer Cairns and NO Draegers.And I've got nothing against a Drager,but there just isn't any in the immediate area.All the packs we own can be upgraded with the latest widgets if we so desire,and these packs can date back close to twenty years.No one else I know of can say that,not even Drager.Built to last a career,and I've got proof.T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 03-02-2005 at 03:31 PM.

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