Thread: nypd ESU

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    Default nypd ESU

    Just watched a programme on Cable folllowing the ESU unit from NYPD. This showed police officers at RTA's (MVA) using cutting equipment and carrying out extrications. This seemed highly unusual especially with Firefighters present. These officers had no PPE on while carrying out extrications and showed Firefighters and police not working very well together at all.

    In London we have a pretty good relationship with the other services and we have pretty clear defined roles.I was pretty shocked watching this documentary.

    One police officer whilst interviewed was very rude about the capabilities of the Fire Service. Seemed that there was not much love lost here.

    I have to say we would not tolerate this in London with the Police doing extrication just as they would not tolerate us doing investigation. As we all know whre we stand we get along well.

    Does anyone know anymore about this as it did not seem to be and ideal situation.

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    This is probably going to sound a bit rude, and I don't mean to be, but try the "Search" function here. There is a wealth of information on the subject. I will say that, to the best of my knowledge, there is a great bit of animosity there, and second, NYC is almost the only place in America where this type of stupidity goes on.
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    Thanks

    But what I was trying to understand is why this is not covered by some act of your government. We used to be covered by the Fire Service Act 1947., but we are now covered by the Fire & Recuse act of 2004. This gives clear defined roles within the law of roles and responsibilites of the Fire Service.

    Of course they will be small grey areas of command and control of services within an incident ground. But not to the extent of Police officers on the incident ground without PPE using hydraulic cutting equipment.

    Who at this point is in charge?

    Who at this point is responsible for Health & Safety on the incident ground.

    This really seems a dangerous situation that you would expect someone to sort out.

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    Take Care

    I really feel for the NYFD having to put up with this situation.

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    Talking

    OHHH...boy, you have no idea what you just started

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    Default Opinion...

    Just my opinion about NYC... As much as I'd LOVE to work for FDNY, I would not be able to handle the amount that their government sh*ts on them. As much as the FDNY firefighters do for that city, and give, to me.. their government doesn't treat them nearly as well as they deserve. Hope I didn't offend any FDNY people with that comment.. I have a great deal of respect for all of you and what you have to put up with!

    As for the ESU.. I've seen that.. and to me, it's just an example of some of the backasswards sh*t that goes on in NYC (courtesy of their gov't). I heard of somewhere here in NC (either Greensboro, Raleigh, or Charlotte) that was trying to start an ESU unit with their PD, and needless to say.. the firefighters on the Rescues raised all hell. I don't think the program has started yet.. but I'd really be interested to see how it jeopardizes the relationship between those FFs and Police Officers. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea at all!

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    Default Posts and ?s...

    Go ahead and ask, Patrick. Who cares what people think. If you seek a certain wisdom you did not find elsewhere in these forums, ask away. People in here LOVE to type "Try doing a search " having no idea wether you did or not or if your ? was answered. If your post "starts" a healthy, heated thread, even better. The biggest "dead horse" issue in here is the "dead horse" issue.

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    This is obviously a hot potato. But I did do the search and found many emotive opinions about the ESU & FDNY. But I did not find much about the actual legislation that covers roles and responsibilities.

    I am not here to offend anyone and I really hope I do not. But as I watched this documentary in complete horror I had to find out a little more.

    To my surprise instead of replies saying that the situation is being dealt with you now have a situation whre there maybe more of these type of units.

    Why? Is there any need?

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    NYPD ESU

    There is a link I had which gives a brief overview of their responsibilities.

    Not being from NY, what I understand is that they can be called into basically any situation.. short of actually fighting fire. They're trained in everything from EMS to Haz-Mat to Dive Rescue..etc. The way I see it.. why waste that money when your FD is trained and paid to do exactly the same thing!?!? Now yea, the ESU is also trained in SWAT-type areas, but then why not just make them a SWAT team and subtract all that "double duty"?

    To answer your question about a need...? In my opinion NO! I know many police officers that don't want anything to do with it.. then again, I also know police officers that bring it up to "Stir the pot with the firefighters!!" I mean.. the gov't would probably be paying more money to outfit the PD with an ESU and put them through all the training, etc. WHY? Why do that when you already have qualified and certified firefighters doing that every day! I think if it starts.. it will just start a HUGE gripfest! The FF's will wait for the "high-trained" ESU to make a mistake and jump on them about it and vise-versa.

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    What does the union have to say?

    I know the Fire Brigades Union in Britain have their problems but they would lose there minds if this was proposed.

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    Originally posted by firefightergtp





    In my opinion: FDNY should get their crap together, and start outfitting the truck companies with rescue equipment
    VERY TRUE! That's probably one of the reasons that the ESU stuff doesn't make any sense to us down here in the South! Most all departments have atleast a combi tool, etc. on their ladders.. Many times, we are the ones calling back, and back, and back asking for an ETA of PD because they ain't there yet!

    Just to set one thing straight.. I'm not being a thick-headed paid guy. If anyone has a right to say anything about my opinions, it's the firefighters of FDNY.. not a vollie that knows some. I respect your opinons.. and agree with them.. but I'm not going to allow you to accuse me of being a "thick-headed" paid guy.

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    Default Interesting..

    Interesting.. I don't know where "firefightergtp" message went.. oh well.

    Patrick.. here is some info. about if FROM an FDNY FF (retired Rescue).. hope it helps somehow..

    Originally posted by FDNYRR
    Station 2 from Texas, had as close an explantion, including accuracy then you other guys who are guessing.

    Having served 20+ years in both Rescue 2 & 5---------I can tell you this relating to your thread. NYC does have a response protocol, which came down as a direct result of physical interaction called the Battle of the Badges, that was 1989-NY time!

    I can tell you this also.....the PD in NYC have such Political Clout, that protocol or not, they do as they damn well please. This in fact is where the problems begin, and they are in Main between the NYPD's ESU and FDNY's Rescues. The beat cop is highly respected by most Firefighters, and most beat cops will and have come to the aid of Firefighters before, and I'm sure in the future.

    The "High-Profile" incidents bring out the press in droves, there is no question, adding responsibility to your meneu might get you more $, and this is the bottom line in the disputes.........FDNY does it as they've always done, and PD is hoping to up the ante' and break paradody with the FD by claiming an increase of responsibility. Sound crazy? Ask any ESU Cop how long they've been around...I'll bet my pension they'll say way before FDNY Rescue. It is a Document that can be requested easily enough........it is a 1924 FD Order, asking Rescue 1 to train a contingent of Police Officers to become their ESU, and to "help" us eliviate some of the emergencies in NYC.
    The "help" turned out to be----the FDNY has no jurisdiction, without PD's approval. Thanks to former Mayor Koch (NYC)..........I know your thinking I'm full of crap, check it out!!!!!!!!

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    The system has pros and cons

    New York city is a city of tradition, thus you see things here you will not see anywhere else. Volunteer departments operating within the district of the biggest paid fire department, ESU, etc. Because of this, ESU will never just be a SWAT team.

    This will probably light a lot of people's fuses, but ESU actually provides many valuable services to the city. I see a lot of people talk in here about breaking down lines and sending the closest unit, regardless of which municipality (i.e. PG County). This works along a similar thought process, kind of. If your car drove into the Hudson River in December, would you rather know that many units from all over the city are coming to pull you out, or that since Rescue 1 (Manhattan) is on a job, you are waiting for a crew out of Brooklyn, Queens,or Staten Island to battle the NY traffic to get a SCUBA team in the water? Sometimes, life saving doesn't have time to wait for an FD unit to arrive. ESU is actually very good at what they do and train very hard, and it is an assignment many cops hope to attain. With NY roads and congestion, believe me when I say the more units out there able to respond on something as urgent as a water rescue, the better.

    That being said, there are certainly problems. ESU cuts cars, and all ladder companies do have tools. Because there is so little cooperation, you actually have units racing to claim the call. Generally ESU arriving first secures it as an ESU job. Then there is the animosity, not amongst the rank and file cops (since they all want to be FDNY anyway ) but with the ESU cops. Then you get the stories of the FDNY diver almost getting speared by hooks thrown by ESU divers, etc.

    So yes, I always saw a place for them, no it is certainly not a perfect system, and yes some advancements could be made.

    Just my opinion

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    Forget NYPD for a minute.

    There is a definite non-FD role for an ESU. There are a ton of law enforcement related incidents to respond to. I think you guys have a notion that ESU spends their entire day jumping FD jobs. I would reckon that there is just a small percentage of cross over jobs. The rest of the day would be legitimate law enforcement jobs.

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    Whether there are actually a lot of "cross-overs" or not.. I just find the amount of problems that FDNY/NYPD have and the level that these instances escalate to pretty interesting.. these occurances must happen with them consistancy.. otherwise there wouldn't be such harsh antimosity between the two. I know we've had a few run-ins with the police.. but nothing like it gets in NYC. They seem to be trying to "out-do" each other instead of working together. Just my opinion!

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    We do well over 400,000 incidents a year. If there are even say; 1,000 negative run-ins with the PD a year, I'd say thats a pretty good job. Are there problems with ESU and us?? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the attitudes of the guys @ the incident, on BOTH sides. Do I think ESU is trained in things that should be left to us?...yes. But until they no longer take in incidents that we also take in, the two Jobs should train togather more, and the guys in the street should try and work togather better.
    Ive been at incidents where FD and ESU got along great, and some where we didnt. But for some to suggest it happens EVERY time we see each other, really just dont know what they're talking about.

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    Originally posted by MattyJ
    But for some to suggest it happens EVERY time we see each other, really just dont know what they're talking about.
    Just wondering who you think might have been suggesting that this happens EVERY time?

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    Call me lazy, but I know that if at 3AM, on January 3rd, when it's -5 degrees below zero, wind chill is around -25, and the snow's blowing, and I were to roll up to an accident in my rescue and see a bunch of wanta-be firefighters working, I'd promptly roll down my window, lean my head out, ask if they needed help, then roll it back up and crank the heater up...


    All kidding aside:

    They do provide some very helpful services for their own branch. Imagine if they called a Rescue company out every time they wanted to cut through some security bars or what not.

    Plus, I can't think of many firefighters that want to be forcing entry into a building under fire from a sniper or something like that. Let the crazy folks who carry their own guns handle it. Now, the day the NYPD starts laying hose and stretching lines, I'll be concerned.

    Couple things to remember:

    1. If they want to waste their finite funds on duplicate services instead of putting out more beat cops and detectives, it's their's to waste.

    2. People love firefighters. People adore firefighters. People generally hate cops and try to shoot at them.
    Last edited by SpartanGuy; 02-27-2005 at 05:03 PM.
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    Patrick,
    As a London Officer who has been lucky enough to spend a fair bit of time with FDNY you can imagine the way my Jaw dropped when I heard about the ESU.

    No it would never be tolerated in the UK and it has been tried, certain Motorway Police forces tried to carry basic RTA gear back in the 70's..porto power and all that...it was soon stopped. However, politics in the US and in NYC in particualr are much more complex with state and citywide legislation. Firefighters are paid at different rates depending on where they work...equipment is different. There is none of the Standardisation that we have in the UK...that makes life very easy to sort out issues when they are so black and white.

    I have attended a couple of RTAs..or MVAs in NYC... and on both occasions NYPD obviously attended but the ESU was nowhere to be seen, although I did see the documentary you are talking about and I was furious.

    There are some amazing similarities between Firefighting in the US and UK,...certainly with urban Firefighting...but also some stark differences, such as Tactics and equipment... Some to our advantage some to our US Brothers & Sisters advantage.
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    Steve,
    I think UK cops need to start worrying about carrying guns instead of Hurst toos


    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

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    To suggest that NYPD ESU are wanna-be FF is patently unfair. Try to understand what others, who actually know what they are talking about, are saying.

    There are a dozen law enforcement functions that they do for every cross-over job that might duplicate a FD service. There are search warrants, weapons and shots fired calls, EDP removals, civil evictions, searches, and on and on and on. They are among the best trained copsin the country. But they certainly are NOT wanna-be FF.

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    Originally posted by SpartanGuy
    Steve,
    I think UK cops need to start worrying about carrying guns instead of Hurst toos


    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    You'd be surprised...although officially a cop walking down the street still doesn't carry a gun, ther are more and more 'Trojan' units (Gun Cars) than ever now... Our crime and disorder figures are an absolute epidemic...gun crime is a nightmare in some areas...
    I have a Newspaper cutting in my Office (I work within the Borough of Hackney in East London) it say; "OFFICIAL; HACKNEY GUN CRIME IS WORSE THAT SOWETO"

    So, with Police walking the street not armed but lots of cars armed...it's no surprise that you don't often see the Police walking around anymore but do see hundreds in cars!!!!

    Londons Police Commissioner has said on record..."If one more of my Officers get shot, I will arm every one of them"

    Amazingly there are a lot of Cops who don't want to be armed though?
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    Face it, with all due respect to FDNY, NYC is a mess. How many different emergency service agencies are there? FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, Transit Authority, vollies, hospital based ambulances. Am I forgeting anyone? For a city that always seems to have budget problems, the duplication of services just seems silly.
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    Face it, with all due respect to FDNY, NYC is a mess. How many different emergency service agencies are there? FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, Transit Authority, vollies, hospital based ambulances. Am I forgeting anyone? For a city that always seems to have budget problems, the duplication of services just seems silly.
    Man.. I'm afraid that's how we see it down here.. up there.. on the other hand, they seem to go along with it.

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    Yup, NYC is a mess. How did I ever get talked into working here?

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    "these occurences must happen with some consistency, otherwise there wouldnt be such harsh annomosity"......thats where I got it from.
    Yeah...NYC is a "mess". 8 million people, thousands of miles of street, hundreds of thousands of buildings,hundreds of miles of subway, millions of cars, hundreds of miles of waterfront,2 Major airports, dozens of major bridges, thousands of highrises, thousands of miles of underground utilities, major terrorist target....etc.....yeah we are a mess!! Actually I'd say that Fire, Police and Ems do a pretty good job in this city..all things considered!

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