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  1. #1
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    Default LDH on old hydrants

    Starting to switch from 3" supply (coupled at 2.5") to 5" LDH supply. Most (80%) of the hydrants in town have a steamer fitting. Not a problem - 4.5" NH to 5" Storz adapter = good to go.

    However, the other 20% of the hydrants have just (2) 2.5" fittings, no steamer. Trying to decide what's the best way to use the LDH on those hydrants.

    1) Get a 2.5" x 5" Storz adapter, and use just one port on the hydrant. Read somewhere that you really don't lose too much flow using only one of the 2.5 ports vs. a steamer connection.

    2) Run two lengths of 2.5" hose into a siamese into the 5". Will the friction loss in the two lines be greater than what is lost in option 1)? Assuming (2) 50' sections.

    Any thoughts on this? I'm leaning towards option 1), but have not yet tried it out. In either case, I'd have to somehow acquire the appliances mentioned to test this out. The adapter method would be a lot cheaper and easier to use than the siamese.

    Note: I would consider our hydrant system as "good" to "very good".


  2. #2
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    You always get more flow with two lines siamesed then with a single line.
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  3. #3
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Default Re: LDH on old hydrants

    Originally posted by mattlt
    Starting to switch from 3" supply (coupled at 2.5") to 5" LDH supply. Most (80%) of the hydrants in town have a steamer fitting. Not a problem - 4.5" NH to 5" Storz adapter = good to go.

    However, the other 20% of the hydrants have just (2) 2.5" fittings, no steamer. Trying to decide what's the best way to use the LDH on those hydrants.

    1) Get a 2.5" x 5" Storz adapter, and use just one port on the hydrant. Read somewhere that you really don't lose too much flow using only one of the 2.5 ports vs. a steamer connection.

    2) Run two lengths of 2.5" hose into a siamese into the 5". Will the friction loss in the two lines be greater than what is lost in option 1)? Assuming (2) 50' sections.

    Any thoughts on this? I'm leaning towards option 1), but have not yet tried it out. In either case, I'd have to somehow acquire the appliances mentioned to test this out. The adapter method would be a lot cheaper and easier to use than the siamese.

    Note: I would consider our hydrant system as "good" to "very good".


    mattlt:


    Why doesn’t your chief try to get the water department to replace the double duce hydrants, with standard hydrants with a steamer and the two 2-1/2” outlets?

    Using at 2-1/2” X 5” Storz will get you a lot of water. Yes, it looks funny but it works very well.

    Using the two lengths of 2-1/2” hose line into a Siamese, also works very good. Instead of using 2-1/2” hose, use two 20 foot lengths of 3” hose into the Siamese!

    Try contacting your Elkhart or Akron dealer for your area and to “lend” your department a Siamese and adapters for a trail basis. Do flow testing using this equipment. No commitments at all. If this works then you will know which way you want to equipped your pumper(s).

    By the way, we never buy anything outright. We always get the sales rep to loan us the nozzles, adapters, etc, for field testing before we buy!!!


    Good luck



    Last edited by CaptOldTimer; 03-02-2005 at 10:48 AM.
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  4. #4
    Forum Member stm4710's Avatar
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    In the long term, get the town to replace those antiques with hydrants!
    I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber jaybird210's Avatar
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    ...use two 20 foot lengths of 3” hose into the Siamese!
    This is what we do, but with ten footers. In fact, this set up will also give yoou better relay pumping capacity, as well. I'm assuming you're like us in that none of your pumpers have 3" or 4" discharges, yes? If that's the case, you won't be able to pump capacity into the 5" with a 2 1/2"x5" adapter on a single discharge (our tests gave us just better than 500 gpm). But if you put 2 3"s into a siamese, you could potentially pump upwards of 1300 gpm or more (Dal?).

    Lot's cheaper than getting PW to switch out hydrants, so it's more likely that this will get done. Just get your city to agree that when they have to replace hydrants, they replace those oldies with steamers (they're probably already doing this).
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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  6. #6
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    We also have some old hydrants in town, they are being replaced with Storz steamers - no adapters required.
    The old hydrants we use 2.5 inch hoses into a siamese to the LDH. The 2.5 inch hose has been modified into pony lines - aprox 15 feet in length. Friction loss is minimal with this. Also you have more volume with the two hoses as apposed to using one port.

    good luck
    Dave
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  7. #7
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Matt,Since you're getting rid of some 3"why not make up some short lengths to do what you gotta do.It will cost you a few couplings and whatever it costs to install them.Plenty of uses for stubby 3's,I used to keep a couple on my water supply Engine.We use stub 4's now.T.C.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    We also use the twin 2 1/2" line setup into a non-clappered siamese. I am also going to order some short pony lines in the near future for that very use, and use with our 700gpm twin outlet portable pump as well.

    You can force a hell of a lot of water through a 2 1/2 inch steel port under pump pressure, but your hydrant may not have the pressure to maximize the flow.

    We too are slowly getting our older hydrants updated with storz steamers, but it is a hard, slow sell in the older communities.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  9. #9
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    Default

    Thanks for all the responses. Looks like the siamese might be the way to go.

    Our city does replace a couple hydrants each year, but we all know how the budget process goes...

  10. #10
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    matt...

    I have a few questions.

    1) What are the flows and the pressures of these hydrants?

    2) Have you done any testing to see which set-up works best? The simplest test would be to set up the 2-3 inch into a siamese and check for maximum flow through a deckgun. The next test wouyld be to set up a 5 inch line from the hydarnt off from a single 2 1/2 outlet.

    Comments.

    If you haven't flow tested hydrants or the hose set-ups you cannot make a decision based on anything but conjecture. Lay lines and test to see which works best. Honestly if the difference was only 100 or 200 gpm what would you do?

    We use 5 inch hose and we have a 4 1/2 inch to 5 inch hydrant adapter left on the hose all the time. Fortunately for us all of our hydrants are steamer hydrants. For those communities that still have some double 2 1/2 inch hydrants we carry a 2 1/2 inch to 5 inch storz adapter. It is connected to a single 2 1/2 inch outlet on the hydrant.

    As far as pumping through a single 2 1/2 inch discharge we flow over 1000 gpm through a single 2 1/2 for relaying through our 5 inch. How straight is the pipe from the pump to the discharge outlet? The number of bends will greatlly reduce the capability of that discharge. Testing, once again, testing must be done in order to get a real answer.

    FyredUp

  11. #11
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    Default

    1) We can easily get at least 1000 gpm from most of our hydrants using the steamer. I really don't know the residual pressure off the top of my head.
    2) I'm going to try to test both options next week. I was mainly asking the question to see what I could expect - if one was going to be 50% better than the other, etc. Hopefully, I can beg/borrow the necessary applicance to perform the test.

    Thanks.

  12. #12
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    Default LDH

    We are doing the same, converting to 4" LDH. We have a majority of Hydrants as old double hydrants. We use 2 short sections of 3" with 2 1/2' couplings to a siamese. The sections are 25' in length.

    These two sections come off first and if the hydrant has a steamer connection. We break at the siamese and go direct to the LDH.

    Hope it helps.

  13. #13
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    I would say go with the 5" to the 2.5" reducer. The siamesed setups will create more friction loss (Especially on bad hydrants). Gate the second port of the hydrant with a ball or rising stem gate valve and have a second 2.5 x 5" adapter available to run another 5" line to your panel. Your auxillary intake is capable of moving alot of water if you run a 5" line into it with the adapter. The hydrant has the water in it (depending on the main size and pressure). The only restriction is the 2.5" outlet. So since that restriction is so small, hook the bigger line to it and make the most of it. Just as a side note, off of a decent hydrant one day I was able to almost double my output on the engine. I was flowing two master streams with 2" tips. The second 5" line gave me just about 1000 GPM more (enabling the flow to the second gun). Unfortunately I dont have all the scientific data to go along with my test since it was a spur of the moment parking lot drill that I did by myself. Like someone else said.... Go to one of these hydrants, hook up the afore mentioned options and pump. Take note of your residual pressure on your compound gauge and see for yourself.

  14. #14
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    We flow tested both choice and went with the 2.5 in. x storz. With our hydrant system the difference was not worth messing with the siamese. Lot of friction loss with the siamese setup.

  15. #15
    Forum Member SafetyPro's Avatar
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    About half our hydrants are single 2 1/2 inch "wharf head" hydrants, with the rest having one 2 1/2 inch and one 4 inch steamer. Believe it or not, the wharf heads are actually some of the "hotter" hydrants because these particular hydrants are rated to a higher pressure and are used at points in the system where we have higher water pressures.

    All of our engines are set up with 4 inch supply line, so what we do is leave a 2 1/2 inch adapter on the end of the supply line. That way, when the hydrantman hits the hydrant, the fitting is already there. If there's a steamer, he/she just removes the adapter and ties into the larger port.

    We'll also often use a hydro-assist valve when making the hydrant (needed in a few parts of town where we have houses ABOVE the domestic, gravity-fed water supply). The hydro assist also has an adapter left on it, but its also easy to remove the adapter from the supply line and attach it to the hydro-assist.
    Chris Gaylord
    Emergency Planner / Fire Captain, UC Santa Cruz FD

  16. #16
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Default

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Quote by Dave:
    You always get more flow with two lines siamesed then with a single line.
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Dave you should know better than to use the word always or never in dang near anything pertaining to the fire service. That sentence is not even close to accurate with that 'always' in it!!

    A 2 1/2" port on a hydrant will flow about 80% of the capacity of the plug. If the plug supplys 1500 gpm, then the 2 1/2 port will supply 1200 gpm. The reducer or in this case, the enlarger is the easier, faster option. Put a gate valve on the other port and if you need the extra 20% or in this case 200 gallons, you can get it. Most of the time the single line will be enough.

    Most of the time Dave....not always! =)
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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