Thread: Garage Fires

  1. #26
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    Originally posted by oldetown
    Also consider the time of day? Is there really going to be anyone sleeping upstairs in (what look like )bedrooms? Try to find out from bystanders if everyone is out of the house or if anyone is even home?
    Time of day is not a factor. Adults work pms and midnight shifts & sleep during the day. Adults take days off or stay home sick. Kids stay home sick or off from school while mom/dad run off to -- work, perform errands or visit their boy-girlfriend. Who knows?

    Searches must be conducted regardless of time of day. Searches must be conducted even when a well intentioned (excited to hysterical) civilian in the street states no one is home. The info we receive from civilians upon arrival in some cases is accurate and others its dead wrong.

    Searches and/or interior ops are delayed or cancelled when -- the structure is deemed to be unstable, unsafe or the fire is well advanced to the point that search and extinguishment cannot be performed in tandem.

    Originally posted by oldetown
    You really need to consider whether or not the upper interior floor is sound enough for several burley fireman to perform any kind of rapid primary search, as well as the above mentioned time of day, and any information gathered from on lookers. The fire is well enough involved that the floor is more then likely going to be comprimised somehow. Risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little. There probably gonna bull doze this house when its over. The fire is so well involved, its not worth sending a crew in just to fall through the floor into the garage only to find no one was home. However if you have any reason to believe that there is a viable victim near an exit path or just behind a door or window.... Then by all means get in there!!Great Discussion!!
    Its hard to get a good handle on things from the picture, but there appears to be little smoke or flame pushing from the second story windows over the garage on side two. Fire is venting from a ground floor window on side two. Experience tells me with this style (Split level) of home in most (I'll never say all) cases the bedrooms are above the garage. I would not assume that the floor above is compromised at this point (probably platform const). Experience and training will help you to determine a floors stability or lack of it upon entry. Id really need to get in that front door and take a look-see before calling off interior ops and searches.

    What I see in this picture is a well-established room (garage) fire with possible communication to the eves and adjoining room. Wouldnt consider this a total loss from my vantage point at this time.

    Once again, just my opinion.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 03-09-2005 at 03:29 PM.

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    Question from a newbie:

    For the supporters of front door attack, would positive pressure ventilation (via front door) help to keep the bad stuff from entering the house if you try to push the fire out the front of the garage? I haven't had any direct experience with PPV except at training so I don't know if it would really have the capability to keep fire and smoke from backing up into the house.

    Thanks VfdDoc

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    Default PPV or No PPV

    doc...PPV might be a good tactic in this situation, as you "know" where the seat of the fire is "possibly" located. I still probably wouldn't use it until we have the fire knocked down...Blitz Attack the fire--straight stream, 2 1/2 or deck gun...then hoseline (1 3/4) through the front door to support the search above the fire. After visible fire in the rest of the structure is knocked down, then maybe the PPV. My department would just turn on a fan in this case (probably), but I'm still not convinced that it's the way to go initially...

    Check out the next post...

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    Default How 'bout this one?

    Here's another "garage" fire...would you do anything different?
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    Default Garage Fires

    TJSNYS wrote :

    Time of day is not a factor. Adults work pms and midnight shifts & sleep during the day. Adults take days off or stay home sick. Kids stay home sick or off from school while mom/dad run off to -- work, perform errands or visit their boy-girlfriend. Who knows?

    Searches must be conducted regardless of time of day. Searches must be conducted even when a well intentioned (excited to hysterical) civilian in the street states no one is home. The info we receive from civilians upon arrival in some cases is accurate and others its dead wrong.




    I agree whole heartedly with you here, however my point was that you need to seriously weigh the risk to your firefighters verses the bennefit of aggressivly searching an area that is questionable with this kind of fire involvement. It's a matter of deciding do we do a primary search now, or a little later ( after a knock on the fire )when conditions will be much easy to work with. What point during your interior operation is a primary search going to be conducted on this upper floor? Middle of the day, no vehicles present and an "excited to hysterical civilian " telling you no one is home should at least be enough information to help you during your size-up to form a logical plan of attack. We can what if this scenerio to death.... what if the interior of the garage is not dry walled and the upper floor is now in the garage?

    My only concern is that the total number of fires in the US is going down every year, however firefighter fatalities remain the same and sometimes high. We need to continue to do our best and use the brain that the God above gave us, and hope thats good enough!


    TJSNYS also wrote :

    Searches and/or interior ops are delayed or cancelled when -- the structure is deemed to be unstable, unsafe or the fire is well advanced to the point that search and extinguishment cannot be performed in tandem.

    Exactly what I was saying. Im glad we seem to be on the same page!!

    All very reasonable opinions.
    Last edited by oldetown; 03-09-2005 at 07:35 PM.

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    The second pic shows a well involved structure that appears to have started in the garage with extesion for the "B" side and this will be a tough stop before it gets into the other part of the house. Again I would have to lead off with the 2.5 and this may have to go defensive depending on staffing. Great pic and better discussion.
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    This next pic looks alot more impressive but is alot better fire since it is a one story house. You do not need to worry about victims above the fire which is the worst spot besides being in the actual fire room. The thing to remember is to not get distracted by all the fire. The fire is vented and what is it buring? AIR, all that impressive fire is outside of the structure and no real threat. So what does the smoke tell us? It has gained a major foothold in the garage and the attic above it. I would hit the main body of fire with a deck gun while you stretch a 1 3/4 attak line. The truck will need to pull ceilings to stop the fire from running the whole attic and you will probably also need to vertically ventilate above the living area if the fire has run the attic. search etc.. pull back up line, straightforward fire still shouldn;t be a big problem.

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    I go along with you Squad and Weruj. Hit it with a duece and a half,drop that 500 gallons, then everyone( second line, trucks to open up,and Rescue to start the primary search) move in and put it out. Don't let tunnel vision get to you. Sure there's alot of fire showing, but it's not a big building it's not a big fire. No cars visible,how about a 1 car family with one parent home. Despite the fire on arrival both of those are two fires where a search is not out of the question,even before the fire is completely knocked down. You can at least enter the front door and do a quick look around the living room and kitchen.There's probably a back door to the yard from the kitchen so you have a second means of egress. The second fire clearly shows a small extention with a door not close to the fire. Imagine how you would feel after blitzing the fire and putting on your vests, someone opened that door 10 minutes later and discovered an overcome or dead child? I don't mean to be on a soapbox, but we(Rescue) start to search as soon as we can get in the door,and go beyond or above the fire if it seems necessary to take that calculated risk... Another point is what would your department send to a reported house fire. Manpower makes alot of difference and can dictate your tactics.
    Last edited by len1582; 03-09-2005 at 11:39 PM.

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    I would hit the garage area with atleast 200 GPM from 1.75" line. maybe even the 2.5". While knocking that down we would set up the tanker operations, (more than likely just nurse off of the 3200 gallon tanker). While setting up the tanker start pulling off another line to move in the interior of the house in order to cut the fire off from extending in the house.
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    This 2nd fire I dont see as a major risk to FF's performing a search. I agree with the coordinated attack - and search. We are in the business of running into burning buildings arent we? However, ( I say with a smile.... We ( the fire service ) just need to use our heads a little more when considering whether or not a structure fire will allow for the rescue of a viable victim. This fire appears to have all the makings of a success story and a back slappin story tellin time after words.

    Just a question.... I see a lot of people responding with the use of 1 3/4 on this fire as well as the original scenerio. Why not go big water on a body of fire like this as well as the original picture? I personally want big big water!! What do you keep in your garage? We can only imagine what some folks keep. Gasoline, stains, thinners, torches a lot of wood products.

    If your an advocate for fog nozzles... a 200' 2 1/2 hoseline with a fog nozzle, 75 lbs of nozzle pressure will give you a max of 300 GPM. Then if you went a step further and used a 200' 2 1/2 with say an 1 1/4 inch solid stream tip you have 50 lbs of nozzle pressure and your puttin out 325 GPM. ( Even better )This fire wants to take you out, the house out and whatever it can get a hold of. I want the biggest badest weapon I can take up to it and use.

    Hey everyone...its fun to pick this stuff apart and critique the heck out of it. Keep the great ideas and discussions coming!!


    Risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little.

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    Default Get it on!

    Wooohoo! Looks like we got us a worker boys(Sorry, couldn't resist)

    Looks like the middle of the day. That means I have four firefighters on an engine, a chief in his jeep, and probably 4 more of my departments volunteers coming behind me in our other engine. Upon entering the area, I'm striking the second, which brings me a career department with an entire platoon response of 8 firefighters manning an engine and a tower as well as a volunteer department next to us with a daytime staffing provided by their firefighters who work for the township of about 4 guys. They'll be manning a quint. My RIT team will be coming in a telesquirt. EMS is taken care of upon dispatch by the control center. Looks like I have a road in the rear for access.(That white house appears to be sitting farther back on a separate road. I may be wrong). Quint and career engine to the rear, all of my units to the front with the tower. RIT team up front, as usual.

    Captain 1 will have the Blank Road Command, side A with a working structure fire in a single story brick ranch house, fully involved garage.

    First thing's first, we'll have stopped and laid in. Now we're gonna play like we practice. I'll probably stretch the stepgun out and get it set up into the garage door so we can get 500GPM flowing ASAP. I start my walk around at this point. A two man crew will be preparing for a BRIEF search, maybe with a 1.75" line to try to head it off. Our chief will charge the hydrant on his way in. Once that happens, I'm going to back up my men at the front door. Hopefully now, the mutual aid will have arrived and we'll have established the building is empty. At this time we're either going to try to wrestle the beast with aggressive venting in and outside of the building and an interior stand with handlines, or she'll get written off and that Sutphen tower ladder I have on my second alarm is going to wack it.

    From what I'm seeing, it appears to have breached the roof over the garage already. I'm going to hazard that this roof is probably lightweight truss construction. That means I'm probably going to write it off if it has that kind of damage done to it before I even pull up. No need to risk firefighter lives after she's been cleared of civilians.

    But then again, I'd have to see what the interior is like.
    Last edited by SpartanGuy; 03-10-2005 at 12:42 AM.
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    Default 2nd verse same as the first

    Second scenario I call on the same tactic as the first. Since there is no second story over the fire, as in the first scenario, this situation becomes a bit simpler. Bearing any surprises this is a 1-2 hour job from dispatch to back in quarters. On arrival heavy fire is showing from the open garage door along with several openings on exposure B side. Exposure D end of home looks clear ATT. Initial size up would also need to check for existence and condition of a basement and or crawl space (based on the picture provided this is not an issue in this scenario but still needs to be checked non-the-less). 1st due engine in the driveway in front of garage with a deck gun blitz attack (250-500 gallons from 1000 gallon tank) while attack lines (2 1.75") are stretched to front door. Blitz attack is complete as hose lines are ready to make entry to cut off extension into main living area and attic along with conducting primary searches. Third line (2") stretched to main fire location to complete extinguishment of fire. 2nd due engine ties into first engine (3" line) and supplies its' 1000 gallons of tank water to 1st due engine. Additional personnel ventilate, secure utilities, overhaul & perform secondary searches. 3rd due engine lays supply from hydrant and ties it into 2nd due engine which continues to supply 1st due. This looks to be about a 2000 gallon fire to complete the majority off extinguishment and overhaul. Tower Ladder parks down street or better yet remains in quarters as not truly needed in this type of situation. I read in a post above the person would nurse water off the 3200 gallon tanker while a tanker operation is established. Nurse? That is a complete waste imo. If you have the water use it. 3200 Gallons is more then likely enough for the entire operation unless you enjoy inflicting serious amounts of unnecessary water damage. Do the math, at 500gpm (whether thru a deck gun or a combination of hose lines) the 3200 gallon tanker can sustain this flow for almost 6.5 minutes. If that flow for that amount of time cannot extinguish that fire then something is terrible wrong. A second tanker of equal size to back up the first tanker is more then adequate to handle this scenario bearing any unforeseen or unusual circumstances such as a gas fed fire or the rare once in a life time scenario of a heavily fueled aircraft crashing into the house for example. Finally, as always, and well stated above, garage fires can bring along many hazards due to the wide range of materials normally stored in them thus additional caution is required until the area is fully extinguished and cooled.

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    Default Garage tactics

    For the first scenario:

    I would agree that the use of a smooth bore nozzle would be the weapon of choice on the fire. Less nozzle reaction, more water NOW, and also a massive reduction in the possibility of "pushing" the fire into the unburned portion of the structure. With that said:

    I would hit a hydrant with LDH and set up for operations. The first line would be a 2.5" smooth bore for a fast attack in the garage. My career department would tone a first alarm assignment consisting of 3 engines, 1 truck, 1 support unit for RIT, and a BC. All units would arrive fairly close together as we are a city departmnet. I agree that a search is a prime concern in any working fire, but I think it would be reasonable to knock down the fire in the garage before putting people above it. The second crew on scene would be placed inside the front door with an 1.75" hose line.

    Once the fire is "knocked down" in the garage - most likely very quickly - the exterior hose operations (2.5" at the garage door) would be shut down. The inside crew could ascertain whether interior conditions dictate staying off of the floor above the garage or moving ahead. The use of a thermal imaging camera would make a primary search very quick in the home.

    Let me know your thoughts...

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    Default Re: 2nd verse same as the first

    Originally posted by Cirrus
    I read in a post above the person would nurse water off the 3200 gallon tanker while a tanker operation is established. Nurse? That is a complete waste imo. If you have the water use it. 3200 Gallons is more then likely enough for the entire operation unless you enjoy inflicting serious amounts of unnecessary water damage. Do the math, at 500gpm (whether thru a deck gun or a combination of hose lines) the 3200 gallon tanker can sustain this flow for almost 6.5 minutes. If that flow for that amount of time cannot extinguish that fire then something is terrible wrong. A second tanker of equal size to back up the first tanker is more then adequate to handle this scenario bearing any unforeseen or unusual circumstances such as a gas fed fire or the rare once in a life time scenario of a heavily fueled aircraft crashing into the house for example. Finally, as always, and well stated above, garage fires can bring along many hazards due to the wide range of materials normally stored in them thus additional caution is required until the area is fully extinguished and cooled.
    I'm confused about the part where you said:
    Nurse? That is a complete waste imo. If you have the water use it.
    What I meant was the instead of taking the time to set up the drop tank and then drop a load of water we would simply hook the 5" suction up to the tanker. Then as the second tanker arrives (3500 gallons) we would either go ahead and drop the water into a drop tank or wait and hook the tanker up to the pumper.

    Our tankers have 5" storz connectors on them so that hooking up the hard suction only takes seconds. We don't use hydrants much so my idea of water supply is a little different than you guys with them.
    Last edited by arhaney; 03-10-2005 at 12:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Re: 2nd verse same as the first

    Originally posted by arhaney


    I'm confused about the part where you said:


    What I meant was the instead of taking the time to set up the drop tank and then drop a load of water we would simply hook the 5" suction up to the tanker. Then as the second tanker arrives (3500 gallons) we would either go ahead and drop the water into a drop tank or wait and hook the tanker up to the pumper.

    Our tankers have 5" storz connectors on them so that hooking up the hard suction only takes seconds. We don't use hydrants much so my idea of water supply is a little different than you guys with them.
    This description makes more sense. As long as you go to work asap with the water initially on scene that is fine imo. I listen to many depts which operate mainly off tankers. Many times it seems they are more worried about establishing a tanker shuttle then attacking the fire with the water already on scene. Just position two tankers right behind the engine and this will provide a sufficent supply of water for 90% of the fires we encounter. Sounds to me, in your more detailed description, that is what you are doing. If so it is the right move imo.

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    Bingo, that's what I was saying in a round about way!

    Thanks, Cirrus
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    usually I would agree that we like to fight the fire from the unburnt area, instead of pushing the fire into the rest of the house. this is not one of those cases.

    the garage part of the house is two stories. the front doorway is on the 1 1/2 floor. this house probably has stairs that go up about 10 ft past the door, and ones that go down 12 feet past the door, with a kitchen directly in front of you if you are standing in the doorway. there is also a doorway connecting the garage to the 1st floor of the house, as well as a back door connecting the first floor with the outside.

    i would have a 2 1/2 stretched to the garage. no way am I going at that with anything smaller for the garage. then I'm going to have an 1 3/4 line streched into the back door and have them standby by the door between the 1st floor and the garage. next I'm going to stretch a dry line 1 3/4 in the front door, and this will be for the rescue crew to do the search.

    now for the interesting part. 1 crew uses to 2 1/2 to knock down the bulk of the fire in the garage. that's the only way the guys from the inside of the house are going to be able to enter the garage area. once the bulk of it is knocked, the crew with the 1 3/4 will open the door, and begin pushing the fire out through the front of the garage. the window on the D side of the garage will be taken out for ventilation. as the 2nd crew is entering the garage, the search crew will begin a search of the floor above the fire. if they encounter heavy fire, they can charge the line to protect themselves and to put the fire out, but if it's just smoke, leave it dry. the truck company will them ensure adequate ventilation occurs, as well as properly overhaul the garage area.

    sound good?
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    except for the 10ft up and 12ft down. That would make 22 ft from the floor to the second floor if the door is in the middle! Maybe 5 or 6 ft both ways.
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    10 ft from the front door to the first stairwell going up, two feet past it (hence the 12 ft) to the stairwell going down. sorry that I was unclear on that
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    On both structures I agree fully with the blitz attack. Depending on ability to place apparatus deck gun w/ smooth bore or 2 1/2" with 1 1/4" tip smooth bore. Stay away from fog for sure especially on the first pic. If by some chance there are victims above the fire w/ a fog nozzle you just par-boiled them. As soon as fire darkened w/ blitz attack, stretch one line through house to garage to finish the job, 1 line upstairs to check for extension, 1 line back up to front door to cover both other lines, and truck/recue crew up w/ first line to knock out primary search and assist w/ checking for extension. As far as the second pic, I'd be weary of heavy structural damage to rafters above garage. Continue blitz attack advance handlines into structure if stable, and send in truck crew w/ TIC to pull ceilings and search for attic extension.

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    Default Nurse Tanker

    arhaney...how big are the pumps on your "nurse" tankers? Do you have any pictures that you can post?

    I was trying to institute this concept on my rural department. We have 3 -1250 GPM pumpers, 1 with a 750 gal tank, and the other 2 with 1000 gal tanks. Each station also has a 3000 gallon tanker...2 of the tankers are almost brand new. When the apparatus committee spec'd the new tankers, it was suggested that they put in at least 1000 gpm pumps, due to the amount of staffing needed to set up a dump operation and to get more water to the fire. I, like a previous post, believe that most of our savable structures could easily be handled with 4000 gallons of water, if it is applied appropriately. However, the committee didn't see it that way, becuase it added too much "weight" to the rig. Now, we have 300 GPM pumps, which won't help us support the residual water needed to move in after a blitz attack...oh well. I've been trying to locate information on the fire growth curve, to show them that if we can kill the fire while it's still growing, we'll save more...if we ****** water on it when the curve is sloping down, it may look good to the untrained eye, but we might as well issue a burn permit and leave

    Anyway...great posts. Keep 'em coming! I'll try to wrestle up a few more pictures for some new threads.

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    No pumps on our tankers. We just hook them straight up to the pumpers in most cases. Both are equiped with a 5" valve, 5" NH threads but with a storz adapter attached. The best move we ever made was to start using the storz adapters with suction gaskets on everything. We have a Ball Intake Valve on the pumper so that we never lose pressure while pumping and switching over to the tanker. I'll try to post some pictures when I get home tonight.
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    Connections on rear of new tanker
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    New 3500 gallon Tanker, side view
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    Last edited by arhaney; 03-11-2005 at 09:22 PM.
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    3200 Gallon tanker connections
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