Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 83

Thread: Garage Fires

  1. #41
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Bingo, that's what I was saying in a round about way!

    Thanks, Cirrus
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems


  2. #42
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    usually I would agree that we like to fight the fire from the unburnt area, instead of pushing the fire into the rest of the house. this is not one of those cases.

    the garage part of the house is two stories. the front doorway is on the 1 1/2 floor. this house probably has stairs that go up about 10 ft past the door, and ones that go down 12 feet past the door, with a kitchen directly in front of you if you are standing in the doorway. there is also a doorway connecting the garage to the 1st floor of the house, as well as a back door connecting the first floor with the outside.

    i would have a 2 1/2 stretched to the garage. no way am I going at that with anything smaller for the garage. then I'm going to have an 1 3/4 line streched into the back door and have them standby by the door between the 1st floor and the garage. next I'm going to stretch a dry line 1 3/4 in the front door, and this will be for the rescue crew to do the search.

    now for the interesting part. 1 crew uses to 2 1/2 to knock down the bulk of the fire in the garage. that's the only way the guys from the inside of the house are going to be able to enter the garage area. once the bulk of it is knocked, the crew with the 1 3/4 will open the door, and begin pushing the fire out through the front of the garage. the window on the D side of the garage will be taken out for ventilation. as the 2nd crew is entering the garage, the search crew will begin a search of the floor above the fire. if they encounter heavy fire, they can charge the line to protect themselves and to put the fire out, but if it's just smoke, leave it dry. the truck company will them ensure adequate ventilation occurs, as well as properly overhaul the garage area.

    sound good?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  3. #43
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,657

    Default

    except for the 10ft up and 12ft down. That would make 22 ft from the floor to the second floor if the door is in the middle! Maybe 5 or 6 ft both ways.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #44
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    10 ft from the front door to the first stairwell going up, two feet past it (hence the 12 ft) to the stairwell going down. sorry that I was unclear on that
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  5. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    31

    Default

    On both structures I agree fully with the blitz attack. Depending on ability to place apparatus deck gun w/ smooth bore or 2 1/2" with 1 1/4" tip smooth bore. Stay away from fog for sure especially on the first pic. If by some chance there are victims above the fire w/ a fog nozzle you just par-boiled them. As soon as fire darkened w/ blitz attack, stretch one line through house to garage to finish the job, 1 line upstairs to check for extension, 1 line back up to front door to cover both other lines, and truck/recue crew up w/ first line to knock out primary search and assist w/ checking for extension. As far as the second pic, I'd be weary of heavy structural damage to rafters above garage. Continue blitz attack advance handlines into structure if stable, and send in truck crew w/ TIC to pull ceilings and search for attic extension.

  6. #46
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Lincoln, NE
    Posts
    195

    Default Nurse Tanker

    arhaney...how big are the pumps on your "nurse" tankers? Do you have any pictures that you can post?

    I was trying to institute this concept on my rural department. We have 3 -1250 GPM pumpers, 1 with a 750 gal tank, and the other 2 with 1000 gal tanks. Each station also has a 3000 gallon tanker...2 of the tankers are almost brand new. When the apparatus committee spec'd the new tankers, it was suggested that they put in at least 1000 gpm pumps, due to the amount of staffing needed to set up a dump operation and to get more water to the fire. I, like a previous post, believe that most of our savable structures could easily be handled with 4000 gallons of water, if it is applied appropriately. However, the committee didn't see it that way, becuase it added too much "weight" to the rig. Now, we have 300 GPM pumps, which won't help us support the residual water needed to move in after a blitz attack...oh well. I've been trying to locate information on the fire growth curve, to show them that if we can kill the fire while it's still growing, we'll save more...if we ****** water on it when the curve is sloping down, it may look good to the untrained eye, but we might as well issue a burn permit and leave

    Anyway...great posts. Keep 'em coming! I'll try to wrestle up a few more pictures for some new threads.

  7. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    No pumps on our tankers. We just hook them straight up to the pumpers in most cases. Both are equiped with a 5" valve, 5" NH threads but with a storz adapter attached. The best move we ever made was to start using the storz adapters with suction gaskets on everything. We have a Ball Intake Valve on the pumper so that we never lose pressure while pumping and switching over to the tanker. I'll try to post some pictures when I get home tonight.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  8. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Connections on rear of new tanker
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    New 3500 gallon Tanker, side view
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by arhaney; 03-11-2005 at 08:22 PM.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  10. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    3200 Gallon tanker connections
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  11. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    3200 Gallon tanker, side view
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    lookin for da heat
    Posts
    128

    Default

    I agree with most. Blitz attack with 2 1/2" minimum or a deck gun to quickly cool the seat of the fire. Do this quickly then shut it down with a rapid advance of an interior team to find and stop extension.
    The first pic most likely has extension into living quarters. Especially if the door into the house from the garage is wooden. As is the case alot of times in our area. A wooden door would breach easy under theses conditions. A view of the rear would be helpful to determan extension. Still I believe a quick cooling of the garage and then basic interior ops pushing extension back out garage.

  13. #53
    tny
    tny is offline
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    163

    Thumbs up

    Bump.

  14. #54
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,572

    Default

    I have to disagree with the blitz attack. If, like many are assuming, the rear garage door didnt hold, then a blitz attack probably just killed anyone left alive in that building. Different departments do things differently, So i wont critize what works for certain departments, but I cant imagine NOT searching that house. The conditions on the floor above are obviously going to be sh*tty, but from what little we can tell with that first pic, there doesnt seem to be much extension yet. The fire has already self vented out the garage, so stretching the initial line in the front door and down the few steps would be the best way to protect any life remaining in the house, as well as the brothers doing the search.
    An agressive interior attack would protect the open interior stairs, protect any remaining life in the house, and most importantly, protect the brothers making that search.

  15. #55
    tny
    tny is offline
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    163

    Default

    nyckftbl
    After reading your prior post on--A VES Scenario thread, I had a hunch we’d agree upon the employment of similar tactics.

    Stay Safe.
    Last edited by tjsnys; 07-13-2005 at 03:19 PM.

  16. #56
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    nyckftbl,

    I agree as well.

    My view is that stupid concept of a "blitz" attack must come from fire chiefs who haven't done much fire duty or are looking to avoid it at all costs. They just added the tough and aggressive name "blitz" to sound more palateble to the masses in the trade mags and justify (to themselves if no one else) that they were performing their duty appropriately.

    Here is why I say that.

    Next time your Dept. has a house like this to burn do the following:

    1. Set up a large fire like this in the garage area.

    2. Send a crew in and have them sit at the top of the stairs after leaving the door to the house open(many times occupants will invesigate the fire opening the door, finding a large fire they will flee and the escaping flames will prevent them from closing the door).

    3. Then once the fire has reached this point as shown in the photo...open your Large caliber stream (master stream, deck gun...etc.)

    Now at this point you are probably going to say "FFFred we don't use master streams from the outside unless all Firemen are out of the strucure or to an area of safe refuge."

    Well if you wouldn't spray that stream from the outside with firemen inside...what makes you think it is a good idea if civilians might be in there?

    Life is the first and foremost priority at a fire. That includes the search for any life. I know it seems many of you and your departments are looking for a written invitation develivered via a strip-o-gram...however most times that isn't going to be the case. Most times there will be conflicting information and you will have to find the vicitms.

    That means a quick, rapid search.(If you are serious about finding viable vicitims...you won't take a hose line (but maybe a can) it just isn't practical or realistic if you intend on removing anyone who will be viable.

    Spraying any stream from the outside into the structure is more likely to force fire, smoke, and steam up and into the structure in areas where people will likely taking refuge or seeking to escape.

    I would have the first line to the main entrance to protect the main staircase and the door of leading from the garage. They can confirm if it is closed or if open they can attempt to close it. If that isn't possible they can begin the attack from there pushing the fire back into the garage area.

    Now I'm sure many of you will claim this might allow the fire to extend farther than it would have otherwise. You are probably right...however once again LIFE is the most important factor to consider...as long as we were able to search for and remove any life from that building we could burn it down and I wouldn't care. However if you failed to perform a search in a timely manner and used streams which caused fire,smoke and steam to shoot into the interior of the house unchecked and it killed or injured anyone that person should be removed from their position of responsiblity.

    Don't think keeping the burst of water to only 5 seconds or whatever will prevent this. It only takes one breath of superheated smoke or steam to sear the lungs and kill a civilian. There is no excuse for anyone who causes this situation to occur.

    This is one of those jobs that no one likes, the Engine guys will take a beating, unfortuneately they might get some burns, but the potential for life above the fire in the living areas of the PD dictate that we hold the fire back and make a search of the area before streams can be applied from outside. This is what we get paid for and if done right...you will save any persons still trapped and probably conserve most of their property as well.

    FTM-PTB

    PS= My comments are in regards to a Suburban or Urban fire situation...not a rural area with limited staffing.

  17. #57
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    FFFRED, I have great respect for your knowledge and experience but I must respond to your comments. First, we use "blitz" attacks here on occasion. And I can assure you it has nothing to with Chiefs and their lack of or willingness to conduct interior operations.

    I will stick to my first post. A blitz attack WITH a smaller line to the unburned side. I didnt mention a search in my first post as that is standard here and is assumed.

    Dont take offense, but have you ever done a "blitz" attack FFFRED, or perhaps you had a bad experience with it?
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  18. #58
    MembersZone Subscriber cdemarse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    493

    Default

    we try to attack garage fires from the inside and push it out the door for reasons FFFread stated.
    One problem with a blitz attack is that if you dont have a water supply established do you want to commit a crew inside? Do you have a hydrant close? Did you tag it coming in or is the second engine going to do it? How far out is 2nd engine and is the hydrant operational?

    We have a 1000 gallon booster tank but some departments only have 500 or 750 so you could be pushing it on water.

    Ok I fully admit that I didnt read the whole thread so this may have been brought up but...Look at the original picute in this thread and check out the driveway. Whatever water you put in the garage be-it blitz or from interior its going to flow down the drive way. DO NOT park your engine infront of the drive way. If there is a car or any other flamable liquid source in the garage your going to make a nice river right under your rig which is probably not a good thing unless you need a new piece of equipment.

    you also have power lines going to the house(left side) that you need to be aware of. Again from picture on first page there are about 2 or 3 guys that I can see that are standing directly under them.
    Be aware of your surrounding and be aware of what effects your actions are going to have.

    stay safe
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
    Always Remember *343*

  19. #59
    MembersZone Subscriber arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Originally posted by cdemarse
    Whatever water you put in the garage be-it blitz or from interior its going to flow down the drive way. DO NOT park your engine infront of the drive way. If there is a car or any other flamable liquid source in the garage your going to make a nice river right under your rig which is probably not a good thing unless you need a new piece of equipment.

    you also have power lines going to the house(left side) that you need to be aware of. Again from picture on first page there are about 2 or 3 guys that I can see that are standing directly under them.
    Be aware of your surrounding and be aware of what effects your actions are going to have.

    stay safe

    Great points!
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  20. #60
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Yes, good points. Everyones situation is different and what works for one wont for the other. I answered the original question based on my situation. We get three engines and a quint on the first alarm (all with at leat 3 FFs), our hydrants are no more then 500' apart (with good pressure), we use 5" LDH, 750 tanks (400 on quints)and each pumping apparatus has at least a 2.5" with play pipe (most have quick attack portable monitors) pre-connected. So we are set up for "blitz" attacks and use it once in a while with (so far) good results.

    Let me say that when I first looked at the photo I considered time of day and considered that the building was evacuated. I know thats not always the case, and a search is still priority. And while 99/100 times we would attack only from the unburned side, there is alot of fire here. So from what experience I have with "blitz" attacks and how well they can work in the right situation, its what I decided to do. Let me add that if the photo was from the middle of the night I would have worried more about occupants and acted accordingly with a different tactic
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts