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Thread: Garage Fires

  1. #61
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Great post FFFRED, said it a lot better than I could.

    Just a quick note, that first pic, looks like a lot of fire, but could be very quickly knocked down with the proper placement of a handline. Because of the big vented area (garage door opening) the fire looks a lot worse than it actually is. just my opinion.


  2. #62
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    All very good posts, if i was the ic i would have a 2 1/2 stretched to the garage to knock down the heavy fire, and 2 1 3/4 line stretched to each level of the home to mop up. This is a fire taht the truckies will enjoy. Lots of truck work will be needed. Make sure that a truck co is with the company going in with the handline and "open up" while going in.
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  3. #63
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    If I could get access to the back of the garage area or thru the house to the garage I'd go there and push the fire out the already open front overhead door area.A blitz in this scenerio will tend to push heavy fire into unburned areas.And how much water do you have to sustain the blitz?In some areas of town there isn't much besides what we carry.Watch for failing trusses in the garage area. T.C.

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    Hit it with a CAFS line, short work will be made

  5. #65
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    Thumbs up Blitz it

    I would blitz it from the front overhead door while the truck opens the rear entrance door to the garage and takes any windows out in the rear. My second line would go to the kitchen through the front door to check for extension. Keep the door between the garage and the house closed. A quick roof hole would help to minimize the mushrooming effect and help to hold it to the garage.

    Attacking from the rear door if one exist might be a good option as well. But by the time you get setup in the rear, you might have a serious extension problem if the kitchen door doesn't hold.

    Mark

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    1st line (2") throught the front door and around to the left to hit the garage from the inside (kitchen area I pressume). 2nd line (2") to the second floor becuase its already up there throught the auto-extension up the side. 1st Truck Co. splits between the roof to open it up and to the 2nd floor to start pulling ceiling. Next line (2" or 2-1/2") to back up the 1st floor line. Next line (2" or 2-1/2") to the stairways and where it is needed from there. If that hasn't gotten it yet, next line (2" or 2-1/2") to cover exposure "B" (Or Side 2, the left side, etc.)

    No deck gun or blitz attack from outside/ Hell its gotta vent point that being out the door and dwon the driveway. I would be surprised if the door to the interior of the 1st floor is still intact. No sense knocking down weakened sheetrock and doors to guarantee it gets into the 1st floor ground level areas.

    Just some thoughts.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  7. #67
    Forum Member NDeMarse's Avatar
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    Default My reply (finally)

    I guess I am a little late on this one, but better late than never!

    I will use my previous department's manpower (Illinois) and response for this fire since most departments are not pulling up with 6 people on each engine and truck. For this scenario all companies will be arriving with 3 members (1 driver, 1 firefighter & 1 boss).

    If I am pulling up on this one and making tactical decisions I am going to opt with an interior attack.

    My first due Engine is going to pull up to the front of the building and stop just past the fire building. While the firefighter stretches a 2 1/2" hand-line off of the rear of the engine the chauffeur will be looking for a hydrant. Normally, the hydrants in my response area were only 300' - 500' apart. As a chauffeur, most of the time you wouldn't be more than 250' from a hydrant. This makes it pretty easy for the 1st due chauffeur to secure his own water source.

    The officer would immediately start his walk-around. On arrival to this job I would probably transmit the next higher alarm due to the large body of fire present. After the walk-around the officer will help the firefighter get the 2 1/2" line stretched and in position. The 2nd due Engine would not enter the fire block until the 1st due truck arrived and took position. If at all possible the 2nd due Engine would take one of the corners of the block. The firefighter & officer of the 2nd due Engine would team up with the 1st due engine and either finish stretching the line or start the attack. The 2nd due Chauffeur would help the 1st due Chauffeur in establishing a water supply.

    Engine Ops:
    At this fire, the entire building is the fire area. The line must be flaked, charged, bled, and ready to operate before the line crosses the threshold of the front door. Lay the line out in the front yard. Leave at least 1 length (50') or 2 lengths (100') to cover the building. I would want the 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" solid stream tip for reach and punch. From the looks of this fire, the door from the garage to the rest of the house is closed and still holding. If that door fails, expect a heavy fire condition to be present almost instantly rolling through the kitchen and hallway (most likely to the left near the garage). To the right, you probably have a bedroom or two and a bathroom.

    Our first rule is to locate and contain the fire. Locating it is not a problem here. By stretching the line to the front door you are containing it to the left side of the house. Later (in truck ops) you will read that you are also protecting the occupants and the truck crew searching for those occupants that might be trapped in the living spaces on the right. As the line moves into the house, all of the members (1st due & boss and the 2nd due FF & Boss) are making sure that a smooth advance is made to the seat of this fire. Chances are in this house, there might be two corners, maybe 3 to get to the "man-door" entrance to the garage. The front garage door is obviously already open/failed so ventilation will not be a problem at all. Open the line when you see fire, knock it down and advance. Be careful when you get into the garage area. There might be flammable liquids, propane cylinders or anything else stored in the garage area.

    I have seen just about everything stored in a garage. Remember that usually above the garage is storage also. I once saw an entire car engine stored in the rafters above the garage area. How they got it up there was beyond me, but it was there and presented a real injury possibility. As we all know, sometimes garages do not have finished ceilings. Extension into the attic/cockloft is more of a probability at this job judging by the amount of fire present on arrival. Work the stream well to the front of you and into the overhead and occasionally sweep the floor as you move in. After you make the "man-door" to the garage the entire fire should be able to be knocked down from that position.

    The 3rd & 4th due Engines would stretch a 2nd line but probably would not enter due to the congestion in the house. The fire will probably already be knocked down at this time, and the truck companies will be checking for extension. At this point, the line doesn't even have to be charged. If extension is found, this line can be brought in to that location to mop it up.

    Keep in mind that just because you stretched the 2 1/2" line to knock down the heavy body of fire on arrival doesn't mean you need to overhaul and wash down with it. Usually the stacked tips will spin off to an 1 1/2" threaded connection at the bale that conveniently will attach to 1 length of 1 3/4" hose. As soon as the main body of fire is knocked down, have the chauffeur bring 1 length of 1 3/4" line with a nozzle to the front door for overhaul. There is no use breaking your balls when the majority of the fire is gone. On the flip side. If heavy fire is still present in the attic/cockloft the 2nd line should still be a 2 1/2". NEVER backup a line with a smaller line. That isn't a back-up line!

    Truck Ops:
    The truck will take a position directly in the front of the building pulling up as close to the far corner as possible. This will leave room (dare I say it?) for a 2nd truck to get into the front of the building also (even if he has to back down to get the turntable to reach). As for the fire, our first concern is how to get into the place. This one doesn't look very formidable so it shouldn't be a problem. A simple door pop of a locked door with a halligan will probably do.

    Expect an extremely heavy smoke condition all the way to the floor upon entry. Chances are, the truck is going to be followed VERY CLOSELY by the line since the stretch is pretty short (200') from the engine. The truck "inside team" (FF & boss) should move quickly. Entering the door, quickly move to the right, down the hall and search the bedrooms and bathroom (locked bathroom/bedroom means a higher chance that someone is in there). The 1st truck chauffeur should team up with the 2nd truck chauffeur and get around to the rear and open up the rear door for egress and to get a quick VES of that area and get out. A sweep with a 6' hook should suffice for the search.

    When the primary search is complete, get into the kitchen area (or whatever room/rooms are next to the garage) and start dropping the ceiling. If you find fire in the attic here, the engine must drop back to this point to contain the fire to the left portion of the house. The trucks must then drop back and keep popping inspection holes in the ceiling until they don't find any fire. When they find the end of the extension, the back-up line can be called in and the rest of the ceiling dropped back to where the 1st line is operating. If extension in the attic is found, then a 3rd line might have to be stretched to control the fire in the garage. Remember, we are there to locate, confine and extinguish. If we knock the fire down in the garage, then burn the roof off of the rest of the house because we didn't find the extension, we didn't do our job!

    Another tip that I have learned over the years is to poke a hole in the ceiling at the door an inspect the type of construction present. If there is a floor above you, you want to know if there are wooden I-beams or floor trusses above you and if there is any fire present. If it is a roof over your head, you will want to know if it is truss or "cut" construction.

    I am probably going to opt out of roof ventilation at this job. By the time the ceiling is pulled and the fire exposed it will be knocked down. Most likely a roof hole will not be completed until after all operations inside are done or very close to it. If there is a heavy body of fire in the attic/cockloft then a hole will have to be made. At the beginning stages of the fire I don't think that roof ventilation is necessary. If it is needed later, then an extra company can be sent there to do it.

    Anyone else have anything to add or questions?
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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  8. #68
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Why charge the line BEFORE you cross the threshhold?SOG? Much easier to work a "dry" line into position and then charge it.No conditions in the main house that I can detect that would cause me any concern to take position this way.Of course we've got 1000+ on every first due Engine so I'm not quite as dependant on the secondary source as someone with 500 or less.Then "blow" it out the front like Larry says,check for extension,pack up and go home. T.C.

  9. #69
    Forum Member NDeMarse's Avatar
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    I guess it is considered our SOG, and the SOGs of the 2 departments I worked for previously. It is my opinion also that in a private dwelling the advances are not that long to warrant stretching a dry line to the seat of the fire then charging it.

    Even if the fire was in a 2nd floor bedroom I think I would still charge the line at the front door. In private dwellings, I was always taught that the entire building is the fire area. Obviously it is different than a multiple dwelling where we will stretch 12 lengths up to the fire floor, wait behind a closed door, charge it, bleed and then attack.

    We might not have the luxury of a closed door (from the garage to the house) at this fire. The front door still looks closed, so I am going to assume on the side of safety that the smoke is banked down to the floor making visibility 0. As an Engine in zero visibility I don't think you should be making entry without a charged line.

    Just my thoughts to backup previous comments.
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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  10. #70
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Nd,Thanks.We run short in the early minutes with a good amount of help arriving in just a few more.I'm not very big(160)so I like to keep things "light"as long as I can.And our Sog's allow us that flexibility.Nothing wrong with early water, just makes things a little harder to wind around common household objects.As far as visibility in the house goes,you'll know that as soon as you open the door(I assume you looked in a window and felt the door first).If I've got smoke to the floor,you can bet my battle plan just changed.No evidence of that here.Just shows how different outfits have different ways of doing the same job. T.C.

  11. #71
    Forum Member NDeMarse's Avatar
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    agreed
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

    Nate DeMarse
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  12. #72
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    We are trying a policy of blitzing mobile homes with the deck gun on the tank while the hydrant man is getting his hookup done.
    Of the 4 trailer fires I've been to this summer,we've stopped the fire where it was 3 times.The fourth,yesterday,was so far gone it wouldn't have mattered.
    The bad thing about mobile homes is they go so fast it isn't saying much that"We stopped that sucker dead,man!".Plus the floors go bad very early in the fire,especially electrical fires because the wiring is usually underneath and fires there can go undetected for a long time before showing.

  13. #73
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    I can understand why you'd want to delay charging as much as possible. If it's a commercial structure or a multi-family dwelling, we'll delay till we're at the fire. If it's at on the second,(or, with increasing frequency in our area) third, or fourth floor(We have four of em!) of the single family home, I'm going to wait until I'm at the base of the stairs.

    Then again I'm 230, 6' even, and not fat


    As an interesting side note, a former chief was a monster. I've never had someone pull ME and the line through the house. He literally drug me around. Here I am, the wide eyed 18 year old on his first fire, being drug around on his stomach.....
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  14. #74
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    Guys,

    I think I need some clarification. When you say you are "stretching dry until you reach the fire" are you saying that you are going to pull a dry line into a store that is on fire (say it is in a rear store room) in a commercial fire?

    I am just curious.

    I would stretch the line dry to the fire occupancy in a commercial fire situation (say it is a row of stores) but before I enter the front door I am charging the line.

    With high ceilings concealing the real conditions and the huge fire load, rapid fire extension is very possible. This could overrun your dry line before you can get it charged.

    I am not bashing anyone's/departments tactics, I just wanted to throw that out there for discussion. Can anyone throw a couple of examples out there?
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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  15. #75
    MembersZone Subscriber cdemarse's Avatar
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    I personally would not enter that building with out the line charged, its just to much risk. Even if you had good visibility and the inside garage door was closed with that amount of fire failure is very close, I would not want to be there with a limp hose. Even if you got it charged fast you still have a hose full of air, and good knows how many kinks. IMO not worth the risk.

    Single family residence in general whether one or two stories get the line charged at the front door.
    Last edited by cdemarse; 07-27-2005 at 07:04 PM.
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    A few questions and comments from a rookie on the first pic.

    1 Why do we only have 500 gallons to work with? Our first due Engine has 1000 gallons of water plus two 30 gallon foam tanks.

    2 Why arn't some people suggesting that the first Engine due not hook the hydrant and charge the line before the hydrant guy goes back to the Engine.

    What I would do in pic 1 as a newbie with a full crew of 6.
    1 Drop 1 man at hydrant.
    2 stop the engine with cab just past B side in order to get the best angle with deck gun and allow for a 3 side view. Making sure to leave enough room for the ladder or second engine.
    3 Have 2 guys stretch a 1 3/4 speedlay to the door. While having another stretch the trash line off the front to prep for backup of the two on the speedlay.
    4 As the officer in this sittuation I would proceed to hook up the 4" suppley from the hydrant to the pump.
    5 Radio the hydrant man to Charge line and return to the engine(Provided second engine or the truck hasn't yet arrived.
    6 All two lines are now laid to the front door I would then have the operator charge lines with foam and make my way to the guy with the trash line to back him up.
    7 Speedlay team entersthe front door while the pump operator hits the garage with foam from the deck gun.
    8 Do a primary search
    This is my opinion and in no way represtents the opinion of my department.

  17. #77
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    IF, and I mean IF, we know where the fire is located, we will stretch dry to the fire room. Otherwise, it will usually be charged at the point of entry. Again, this depends on the situation. Not too long ago, we got called for a structure fire. On arrival, medium smoke was coming from the attic vents on one end of the house. We dry stretched to the pull down stairs on the third floor. On another call, we were again dispatched to a structure fire, medium smoke coming from first floor windows. Line was charged at front door when we made entry, fire was in back room down the hallway.

    Peetmoss, just my quick thoughts.
    8) Primary search - after all the previous steps, it's probably too late. Your lines are committed and there is very little chance you can do a valid rapid primary search dragging two hose lines around.

    7) You have lines inside with guys working and you are going to use a deluge gun with foam from the outside? That will push an incredible amount of smoke and heat inside on those teams. And while they are searching, they will not be able to have any chance of containing that fire that's getting pushed on them.

    Again, just my thoughts.
    Last edited by Bones42; 07-28-2005 at 09:19 AM.
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  18. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber cdemarse's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Peetmoss
    A few questions and comments from a rookie on the first pic.

    1 Why do we only have 500 gallons to work with? Our first due Engine has 1000 gallons of water plus two 30 gallon foam tanks.

    2 Why arn't some people suggesting that the first Engine due not hook the hydrant and charge the line before the hydrant guy goes back to the Engine.

    What I would do in pic 1 as a newbie with a full crew of 6.
    1 Drop 1 man at hydrant.
    2 stop the engine with cab just past B side in order to get the best angle with deck gun and allow for a 3 side view. Making sure to leave enough room for the ladder or second engine.
    3 Have 2 guys stretch a 1 3/4 speedlay to the door. While having another stretch the trash line off the front to prep for backup of the two on the speedlay.
    4 As the officer in this sittuation I would proceed to hook up the 4" suppley from the hydrant to the pump.
    5 Radio the hydrant man to Charge line and return to the engine(Provided second engine or the truck hasn't yet arrived.
    6 All two lines are now laid to the front door I would then have the operator charge lines with foam and make my way to the guy with the trash line to back him up.
    7 Speedlay team entersthe front door while the pump operator hits the garage with foam from the deck gun.
    8 Do a primary search
    Couple things
    I can see the forward lay into the fire, I have no problem with that especially in limited manpower situations.

    Problem with having your officer hooking up hose is that its taking him away from doing his walk around and continually sizing up the building.

    not sure how long your trash line on the front bumper is but most I have seen are 100ft which would most likely leave you short.

    A good rule of thumb that I usually use is to get one line in place and operating properly before you get the second line going. Now this is for an engine company, if you have two or three engines on scene then by all means get the second line streched BUT another great rule of thumb is if you need a second line dont make it smaller or the same size as your first line. If you pulled an 1-3/4 for your first and its not doing the job, pull a duece and a half.

    If you were to do #7 there is no rush on #8 since you more than likly dont have any survivers.

    If an engineer was to spay a deck gun into a fire building when I was inside you can bet your *** IF I made it out alive I would not be very happy.

    As bones said you push all the icky bad sh*t back inside on the crew and victims, which makes everything go bad.
    Last edited by cdemarse; 07-28-2005 at 06:17 PM.
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    Thanks for the answers CD.

    You make some very good points about the deck gun and the officer, and the backup line.
    This is my opinion and in no way represtents the opinion of my department.

  20. #80
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    no problem bro

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