What's a good age for an line officer?

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by Firetacoma1
Dave - I'm not sure why that's been your experience. At least in my department officers are appointed based on years/experience and education has no bearing on it. I personally think an officer should have at least taken strategies and tactics, fire officer development, firefighter safety, etc. and maintain their state firefighter 1. Firefighters shouldn't be in charge of educating officers on scene.

I dont know either. Perhaps its the people. And to clarify, Im talking degrees, not certifications.

[firenresq77]

You can't put a minimum age on it. Experience is a big factor, along with education and attitude, but another thing is the ability to lead and to have the trust of the FFs.

We have some people that have 5 years on the job, and have FF-I, Hazmat Tech, Associates in Fire Science, working on Paramedic, will take any class available, but has the "know-it-all" attitude. You ask a question , and you may very well get the answer you are looking for, but when it comes down to actually doing it, it's a totally different story.

There are other people who have been on the job for 10, 15, 20+ years and have all kinds of training, but wither don't retain it or the people don't trust them in a life or death situation.

Likewise, you have to have someone that has a good attitude.

It's a tough thing, but you have to gauge the people on their education, experience, attitude, leadership skills and trust worthiness. Some people may excel 1 or 2 of those things, but without some of the others, they probably wouldn't make very good officers.

FWIW, I had been on the job for 9 years prior to being promoted to LT at the age of 27........

[FFDCAR15]

I may be impartial to what I'm about to say, because I'm a 21 year old Lt., but the biggest thing that an officer needs is maturity on the fireground and when leading a crew. I know that there are some 40 year olds that have the maturity of an 18 year old. I also think that experience is plus too.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by FFDCAR15
I may be impartial to what I'm about to say, because I'm a 21 year old Lt., but the biggest thing that an officer needs is maturity on the fireground and when leading a crew. I know that there are some 40 year olds that have the maturity of an 18 year old. I also think that experience is plus too.

I agree, you need maturity, but that maturity won't do you or your crew any good without experience, training, etc........ That's why I said it's a combination of things......

[Firetacoma1]

Dave - I can't of course speak for all degree programs, but the one I went through we obtained a whole slew of certs along the way.

Firenresq - I agree that attitude is a major key. We had a very active member who was also a volly with another local department. He was one of those who was never wrong. He came off as a know-it-all who thinks he knows everything about the job. Well he did have a wealth of knowledge, his approach to sharing his knowledge came across as cocky, and therefore most people didn't take his advice, even if it may have been good information.

[wvfd05]

I would agree with firenresq77 that it takes a combination of criteria for becoming a line officer or chief. Age shouldn't be the "above all" criteria.

TF

[hwoods]

I was taking a nap, and I thought I heard someone mention age. By now, you all know my position on that, Age is not worth worrying about. A combination of Experience, Education, and Attitude, is what makes an officer. Next Question?

[Dickey]

It should be a combination of age, life experience, fire experience, fire training, attitude, past history, and seniority.

None of these should be considered by itself.

[TillerMan25]

You are absolutely right. A Sergeant is the most junior rank, so they usually will act as a Fireman unless there are no other Officers in the Station.

Gonzo, I did not make the Sergeant a "Driver/Operator" position. It is merely like an "acting" Lt. spot, no real operational authority, but rides as OIC when the Lt. or the Captain isn't there.


Any comments on my levels of Training?

[ResQFF]

TillerMan25 Wrote:
Yep, because you cannot allow children to run a fire crew. If you are under 18, you have no business being on a line or putting an SCBA on.



First of all you can't wear a SCBA or be an interior firefighter until you are at least 17, some places 18. So anyone in their right mind that elects or appoints a 17 or 18 yr old to be a line officer is.....well "STUPID"

The only position that a youngster should have is Explorer officer.

[ullrichk]

Originally posted by Dickey
It should be a combination of age, life experience, fire experience, fire training, attitude, past history, and seniority.

None of these should be considered by itself.

Ahh, seniority. One of my hot buttons.

[RANT]

All else being equal, yes, the senior candidate should always get the nod. All too often, though, the man with one year's experience twenty times (it sure looks like twenty years to the personnel review board) gets promoted over someone who has been busting their butt for ten or fifteen years.

IMO promotions should never be given to personnel who have retired in place.

[/RANT]

[ResQFF]

As I read on some more - I see all of you saying that age doesn't matter. Well in MOST cases you are all correct. But you can get some Joe Shmoe come in at 18-19 yrs old and has taken every class possible and might know alot - But are you gonna put him in an officers position. So in some cases I believe age does matter.

[stm4710]

Dunno about minimum age, depends on your situation. Personally I dont like being an officer. I HAVE had to handle operations because I was the most " seinor" person to arrive first ata child missing call.....it was a one time thing and was only for 10 minutes.

I answer all the questions on these mock officer exams and do well, but when it came time to put it in practice in the field,I was almost overdrawn at the expierience bank......................

[Eng34FF]

Yeah, but he spent several years at VMI and West Point, as did Schwarzkopf and Eisenhower. All were graduates. Bradley was a graduate of the United States Military Academy. These guys were professionally trained soldiers before their acne cleared up. There is no comparison to today's fire service, especially volunteer.

They also had experienced NCO's to keep them out of trouble when they were given their first platoon at age 22.

[Eng34FF]

This is very interesting right now. We have a group trying to change the companies constitution to lower the age requirements for officers. Currently we require the Chiefs to be 25, Deputy and Assistant Chiefs to be 23, Captains must be 21 and below that must be 18. They want to lower the Chiefs age to 23, Deputies and Assistants to 21.

I for one am against lowering the age. There is just a maturity level that comes with age. This is true both with managing a scene and dealing with the different personalities involved in a volunteer department.

[TillerMan25]

You guys should work on lowering the number of officers you have .

I have never seen so many people with a title until I saw the Officer Roster for your Department. Do you really have that many members? If so, why do you guys scratch all the time? When I lived and ran in Calvert, you guys still had 100 officers and didn't get the rubber on the road regularly.

I think St. Leonard and Hollywood were thinking of putting "Solomons" on the side of their units too.....I know my comments might be harsh, but it's the truth, so take it for what it's worth.....

[ThNozzleman]

West Point, Annapolis or any other institution creates officers. The Graduates I referenced above were pretty good ones, I think. You both made my point for me and I thank you. Great training made great officers and it had NOTHING TO DO WITH AGE.

And my point is that nothing in the fire service is on par with what all of these men underwent prior to their military service, as far as training goes. And I'm sure that even they (at that age) were nowhere near the distinguished leaders they would become later in their lives as they matured.

[firefightergtp]

Originally posted by TillerMan25
You guys should work on lowering the number of officers you have .

I have never seen so many people with a title until I saw the Officer Roster for your Department. Do you really have that many members? If so, why do you guys scratch all the time? When I lived and ran in Calvert, you guys still had 100 officers and didn't get the rubber on the road regularly.

I think St. Leonard and Hollywood were thinking of putting "Solomons" on the side of their units too.....I know my comments might be harsh, but it's the truth, so take it for what it's worth.....

.

Reminds me of a neighboring department. More than half of their active members wear white helmets. Its kinda funny to see a whole bunch of white helmets trying to cut up a car I believe they allow their chief, assistants, and captain to run red lights and siren. Which is ridiculous in my opinion.

Back to the topic though: I am 21, and I was just voted in as 1st lieutenant this year. While another member, who is older than me, was voted in as 2nd lieutenant. I tend to think that the members of the company decided to do this because 1) I exhibited responsibility when I was president for 2 years. 2) Because I have more firefighting experience that the other guy. I set up a multi-department car fire/extrication drill, and I also put together a new member orientation program for new members to get familiarized with the department and the company. Before this year, we had an older gentlemen in the LT seat. He had all the training, but was a horrible officer. Some people are just not capable of doing it, bottom line.

I worked really hard to get the respect that I have now, and I gave a whole lot of respect to get it!!

[Eng34FF]

I have never seen so many people with a title until I saw the Officer Roster for your Department. Do you really have that many members? If so, why do you guys scratch all the time? When I lived and ran in Calvert, you guys still had 100 officers and didn't get the rubber on the road regularly.

TillerMan

Take that crap back to the watchdesk. I came on here to have an intelligent conversation about age requirements of officers, not to get bashed because of my departments scratch rate.

For the record, I'm not proud of our scratch rate and neither is the department. We are working on it and it's getting better. If you can show me that the age or number of officers has an impact on the scratch rate, or offer constructive suggestions to improve it, we can talk.

Back to topic, I will be the first to admit that there are some outstanding individuals that are competent to become an officer at younger ages. To me that argument can be applied to driving or drinking, just because some can handle it at a younger age is not a reason to lower age requirements.

[TillerMan25]

I swear, I think some of you people are infatuated with the WatchDesk...... If you can't deal in honesty and un-sugared opinion, I guess TWD isn't the place for you.

If you can show me that the age or number of officers has an impact on the scratch rate, or offer constructive suggestions to improve it, we can talk.

If you had less officers you might have more people show up for calls. The average span of control for a Fire/EMS officer is 5-6 people. If you only have 30 people on your active list, that averages out to One Officer for every Five people. So in essence, you would only need Five Line Officers (Minus the Chiefs, because they are usually not directly supervising firefighters under ideal conditions.) People may feel they are being "OverSupervised" because every time they are on the Fire Truck, they might be the only Black Hat on there. Also, more officers = more egos, More Egos = Less Satisfaction with the General Membership. General Rule of Thumb...One Set of Officers for every service you have. Using Your Department as an Example:

Chief 3
Chief 3B
Chief 3A

Chief 3C for EMS

Engine Captain 3
Truck Captain 3
Engine Lieutenant 3
Truck Lieutenant 3
EMS Captain 3
EMS Lieutenant 3

It's pretty cut and dry, and elections take alot less time...

Do you honestly need to have Seven Chief officers for your Fire Company?

Chief 3, Chief 3A, Chief 3B, Chief 3C, Rescue Chief 3, Rescue 3A and Rescue 3B.....Good God, with all those Chiefs, who needs Captains and Lieutenants?