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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber Crisb1419's Avatar
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    Default F-350 Brush Truck

    We purchased a F-350 4DR Ford about 2 years ago. We put a 300 gal. CET skid unit, booster reel, 1 crosslay.

    We have had alot of problems with the truck the last few months, when we bought the truck the local Ford dealer and the dealer who sold us the skid unit said the truck would hold the weight of the water.

    Now in the past few months we have had the turbo fixed 3 times, and now we are having other problems. Ford said it is to much weight for the truck. But when we went to buy the truck they said it would hold it no problem.

    I want to know if anyone else has this set up, and if you are having problems, or not. We have fixed the problem for now, by only having 100 gal. on the truck at the station. We do not use it alot, don't have much rural area. We purchased the truck to pull a Life Safety House, and the powers to be wanted the skid unit. If anybody could help me with this. If this is just a one time thing then so be it, but if this has happend in a few places, then I would like to know what you did. Stay Safe
    FF/Instructor
    "Train as you life depends on it, IT DOES!!"
    IACOJ
    MABAS 32


  2. #2
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    Default

    F -Found
    O -On
    R -Roadside
    D -Dead

    Anyways, joking aside... We have a 1991 F-250 4WD truck as a brush truck and mechanically have not had any problems with it. However, we did have problems with the front wheels "toeing out" from the weight being taken off the front suspension due to the weight of the water tank in back. We recently had this corrected and the wheels are now "toeing in" from the same thing. These trucks should be able to handle the weight of this water without problem, but we all know how manufacturer's claims go. I would do some research on Ford's website and see what the GVWR and maximum load capacity is for your particular truck and if it is within the norms, call your dealer and bitch!

  3. #3
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    Crisb1419, What other type of problems are you having? The turbo problem does not have anything to do with the truck possibly being overweight.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    We have two units on F-550 4wd chassis, and while they weigh close to the limits of Ford's GVWR numbers, they do not exceed them. However, both units originally dragged their butts like a dog trying to clean his rear end.

    Our apparatus builder took care of the issue themselves, by adding leafs to the rear suspension, while Ford claimed nothing was wrong. We've also blown a head gasket on one of ours, which is alarming considering the age of the unit.

    We'll see how they hold up as they continue to age. Both units are less than three years old.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber Crisb1419's Avatar
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    Default

    The Ford dealer said because the weight of the skid unit, it is causing transmission problems and turbo problems. I am not a mechanic, we have someone looking in to that side. I was asked to put a thread on to see if there was anyone else who was having this problem.
    FF/Instructor
    "Train as you life depends on it, IT DOES!!"
    IACOJ
    MABAS 32

  6. #6
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    First and foremost, as has already been mentioned, get it weighed. If it is not overweight, then Ford has a problem.

  7. #7
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by parafire81
    F -Found
    O -On
    R -Roadside
    D -Dead

    Anyways, joking aside... We have a 1991 F-250 4WD truck as a brush truck and mechanically have not had any problems with it. However, we did have problems with the front wheels "toeing out" from the weight being taken off the front suspension due to the weight of the water tank in back. We recently had this corrected and the wheels are now "toeing in" from the same thing. These trucks should be able to handle the weight of this water without problem, but we all know how manufacturer's claims go. I would do some research on Ford's website and see what the GVWR and maximum load capacity is for your particular truck and if it is within the norms, call your dealer and bitch!


    F - First

    O - On

    R - Race

    D - Day!!!





    They make outstanding brush units.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  8. #8
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    Exclamation Duty rating

    After spec'ing all types of fire apparatus for over 35 years, it has become very clear that if you have any desire to have a small apparatus of your type live for any length of time, it should follow the following criteria. Keep it handy for future use.

    Up to 100 gallon tank and small pump/motor=Class 2(minimum) F250 4X4

    Up to 100 gallon tank and larger 4 cylinder skid pump=Class 3 (minimum) F350 4X4

    Up to 200 gallon tank and small pump/motor=Class 3 (minimum) F350 4X4

    Up to 200 gallon tank and larger 4 cylinder skid pump=Class 4 (minimum) F450 4X4

    Up to 300 gallon tank and small pump/motor=Class 4 (minimum) F450 4X4

    Up to 300 gallon tank and larger 4 cylinder skid pump=Class 5 (minimum) F550 4X4

    If you want to cut corners and buy cheaper (lower class rated), you will be subjected to the strains and degredation of overloading for the class of vehicle selected. The old saying "You can pay me now or pay me later" rings pretty true.

    All that being said, the issue with the turbo is not new. Ford and the engine supplier (Navistar/International Engine Group) are having fits with this new motor. Problems exist with the turbo and the ECU. MANY reflash programming bulletins abound. The problem is bad enough that Ford will buy back the vehicle if driveability and performance issues cannot be resolved. The issue of head gaskets was resolved and new head gaskets were designed for these motors. If you EVER have an issue with head gaskets, demand warranty regardless of time or mileage. The first indication of a head gasket failure will usually be a leak of engine oil that appears to be a pan gasket leak. There has been an issue with valve cover gasket leaking. Have your Ford dealer pull all recalls and TSB's for your vehicle. The list is extensive, so be prepared to do some reading. Any problems with the dealer now stating that the unit is not of the proper class can easily be resolved by a lawsuit addressing misrepresentation of the chassis. The problem goes back to who made the decision to downgrade the class to the choice you made. IF, however, you wrote a specification requiring the chassis you have, it goes to a gray area. What proof do you have that the dealer indicated that the chassis was the one you needed? Your best bet is to pursue the buy back of the chassis. Then, go to the builder and have them purchase a replacement chassis (F550)on which to mount the original body buildup. If you had gone to a body builder and asked what class level chassis to use, they should have been in line with the info listed above. The body builder wants a the unit to last, not fall apart. After all, their name is on the side of the unit.
    Any issues of over-weight go to the Ford Body Builder Guide for that chassis. If the dealer had received all the informations of weight, the dealer would have known that the chassis picked was insufficient. However, the body builder would surely have recommended against the chassis that you picked.

    IF, for whatever reason, a Ford dealer believes that the choices listed above for class of vehicle are over spec'd, it would be obvious that they do not understand the rigors to which emergency services vehicles must perform. Every chassis, regardless of custom or commercial, should be at least one class level above that which is used in commercial service. Spec a chassis much like a garbage company would spec a refuse truck (Severe/Heavy). One class level above the normal.

    Respectfully submitted,

    Anthony D. Bulygo
    Santa Clara County Fire Department (CA) (Retired)

    adbmlb@hotmail.com (in the subject line type: "Firehouse response")

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Default

    Is the head gasket an issue on the latest Powerstroke motors, or on the older style?

    We have two units with the older motor, and one with the latest Powerstroke with the 5-speed tranny. The newest of the older style Powerstroke is the engine that has the head gasket issue.

    Not to mention that the dealer's idiot that tore the motor apart put the pulleys and tensioner back together wrong (we have an underhood generator), causing the vehicle to go out of service again. I'm well aware that it isn't a facory option, but if you can't put it together like you took it apart, tell us to go somewhere else. The guy pulled out parts telling one of our guys they weren't necessary!

    The older Ford is an F-350, well underweight but it has constant brake issues. There's always something I suppose.
    Last edited by npfd801; 03-04-2005 at 03:00 PM.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber rualfire's Avatar
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    Default

    Anthony. A wealth of information. Thanks.


    I sent you an email direct with a couple of other questions.


    All else.

    Here is a 1996, Ford F350 with 300Gal. According to Anthoy's Spec's above, we are 1 class underweight. And.. as mentioned higher above, we are seeing some increased wear on the front end. specifically, cupping of the front tires due to the weight in the rear end.

    To be fair. this truck had 60,000 miles on it before it began its life as an emergency vehicle.

    Note the jump seats behind the cab. Is anyone else using something similar? We've got 1 inch forestry stinger lines plumbed in for those prarie grass fires.

    (PS The around the pump foam system is worthless in this configuration)



  11. #11
    Forum Member HFRH28's Avatar
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    The turbo problem could be coming from the way the turbo has been treated, from people having a foot on the gas when it's cranked, to shutting it down without turbo cool down. If the turbo is still under warranty, keep making them fix it. If not, and you want to try a different solution, I would recommend contacting ATS Turbo
    ( http://www.atsturbo.com/# ) or Diesel Innovations
    ( http://www.dieselinnovations.com/ ) probably the Garrett GTP38R
    Ball Bearing Turbo, and checking out their turbos that are closest to OEM. I would recommend staying away from Banks if you want to go with an aftermarket turbo.

    Either way, I would make sure your people know how to treat the powerjoke turbo sneezle, and other turbo'd diesels. Itís my general rule of thumb to start a diesel with no accelerator, and keep out of the accelerator at LEAST until oil pressure is built up or longer, but thatís hard to put into peopleís heads when theyíre in a hurry.

  12. #12
    Forum Member SpartanGuy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CaptOldTimer




    F - First

    O - On

    R - Race

    D - Day!!!
    Because it never left the starting line!
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  13. #13
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    I kind of suspect that the unit is grossly overweight. In the Northwest I used to run small 200 gallon fire engines on F350 chassis until we got sick of all the breakage and bought a 94 "Super Duty" 450. What a world of difference that made. I see this theme pop up over and over again. When we quit buying Ford vans for instance and went to a medium chassis for the ambulance. What a difference in breakage and hassle. For instance it would still be on its first set of brakes and rotors at 50,000 miles now had the one not siezed up and ground into the rotor. But that was a fluke anyway

    Birken

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber Crisb1419's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thanks

    Thanks to all who gave good info on this. We will have to do some work. Thanks again.
    FF/Instructor
    "Train as you life depends on it, IT DOES!!"
    IACOJ
    MABAS 32

  15. #15
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    How much does that skid weigh?

    The payload on the F350 is i think 3500 lbs in the bed for single rear wheels and 4300 lbs for a dually.

  16. #16
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    also you max gvw would be 9900 for a single rear and 11200 for a dual if u r under those numbers you SHOULD be ok and work should be done under warranty.

  17. #17
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    What adbmlb said. But if you're actually planning to go cross country these light duty truck from Ford/Chevy/Dodge 350/450 or 3500 etc are not what is required. These are not trucks they are light duty utility vehicles. We have been buying them for years, to undertake necessary jobs, because we have not been able to afford the price of a real truck.

    Loading to GVWR is foolish at best. Let alone the multitude of over gross examples. The load ratings on these pickup trucks - F350/450/3500 are for driving on paved roads. Deduct for gravel road. Cut your load in 1/2 if you are turning of a road onto a trail or into a field. And drive it like you're driving grandpas hearse the last 100ft to his final resting place.

    You might consider that the military has long rated their trucks for crosscountry use (brush truck application). Road payload is twice that of crosscountry rating. And this is for REAL trucks with heavy duty truck components.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber rualfire's Avatar
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    I'll take our truck out and have it weighed this week.

    I'll post back here what it weighs front and rear axles, with and without water onboard.

    Any guesses?

  19. #19
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    most of these problems on the 6.0 have been addressed by ford but sometimes dealers can be your nightmare , i service these every day so i can help with most ?'s you have pre 95 were not "powerstroke" they were idi and a complete differant motor,95-97 smaller injectors with no intercooler,98-early 99 bettert nozzles with intercooler,99.5-2001 one less fin on turbo better injector driver module and stll a forged connecting rod 2002-2003.5 ,still 7.3 with a powder metalic rod , ford saved 5.00 per rod but lost ALOT of dependability, 2003.5 were the 6.0 powerstroke till 2004alot of r&d were not done to these motors, thanks to say there "coming around" a lot of this early smoke , and whistle comes from the Exhaust Backpreesure Valve , this is where some of the problem comes in the forces a flap closed in the exhaust to help warm the truck up , going to a fire call , you wanna go, this is fighhting withyou hense holding the heat in, not your fault just take it out or disconect it, secons ALL 7.3 had trouble with the center bolts fallimg out of the exhaust side backing plate of the turbo, ford has a better bolt kit but it usally won't help, smear some jb weld on the bolts then install them, usally takes care of it.
    ford 6.0 has a problem with the head gaskets, make no excusse , but lets look at the load most of these pull , you should be able to cary 19,500lbs on a trailer behind you(by fords standard) i cannot beleive a few hundred gallons a water should make mutch differance , maybe you'll need a leaf added or a set of timbrem overloads added , but you need to weigh it, to be sure, last but not least the automatic trans in the ford that is either a e40d or a 4r100 are terrible the torque converters fail wrecking the transmission all the time i've only found 1 fix have the tranny done buy a guy in lead hills arkansa name is brian thompson(brian's truck shop) email me for a number i don't want to consider this advertising, i could go on and on but these should be a good truck , if you realy want to find out on them go to www.diesel-stop.com these guys are full of good info, hope this helps if you ever want to chip or improve the exhaust or for a better fix to the head gaskets ican help with that to !

  20. #20
    Forum Member HFRH28's Avatar
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    Matt1066, what's this I am hearing about the 2006 6.0 being DOHC with VGT? Can you confirm, or prove these rumors incorrect? (and I hope it's the later)

    As to the GVW tearing up the trucks, there are so many Ford wreckers and roll backs out there that are overloaded every day, I haven't seen any major problems. I agree as somebody said, it's all in the driver. I see many of these trucks pull overloaded horse trailers and race car trailers, again, not many problems that i've heard of.
    No offense to any powerstroke fans, but working diesels are inlines, althought it is hard to beat the sound of the ol V series 2 cycle detroits

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