scba fill station

**sexauer** · 03-05-2005, 08:31 PM

I post this poll because I work for two departments and we use frag tubes at both. I honestly don't feel safe filing with only a frag tube. With 4500psi behind it, I seriously doubt that a frag tube will do much good.

**jfTL41** · 03-05-2005, 09:34 PM

None of the above, every day the truck comes and we give em the empties and they give us the full ones, MAGIC!

**jboczek** · 03-05-2005, 11:46 PM

we've filled ours in the open air until this year when we purchased 2 fill stations, a mobile one and a stationary one, with FireAct funds. We'll not fill another one out of full containment station.

**neiowa** · 03-06-2005, 02:33 AM

We are purchasing a Frag-2 with fire grant $. Have been filling from our military surplus cascade system with no containment because we have not $ for such essential safety equipment. Cost is around $1700 for 2 chambers. Pretty expensive. These have a lid with latch.

Why would you think a frag tube is not going to contain an exploding bottle as just well at an overpriced box with a hinged dumpster door? The manufacturer is designing the frag tube to be ineffectual and to fail (so you can sue him)? The thickness/quality of the steel is what is going to contain the shrapnel. The extra $5000 for gauges/valves/fancy hinges don't and strength. Easy example of KISS (keep it simple )

**sexauer** · 03-06-2005, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by neiowa

Why would you think a frag tube is not going to contain an exploding bottle as just well at an overpriced box with a hinged dumpster door? The manufacturer is designing the frag tube to be ineffectual and to fail (so you can sue him)? The thickness/quality of the steel is what is going to contain the shrapnel. The extra $5000 for gauges/valves/fancy hinges don't and strength. Easy example of KISS (keep it simple )

I dont think it will contain it as well because of the open top. I think that if the cylinder comes apart, depending on where the cylinder initialy ruptures (It could come out of the frag tube) it will spray shrapnel all over the place. Has anyone ever seen what one of those tanks do to the side of a truck when they come apart? I could be wrong, and it could contain it quite well, but with the pressures involved.....I hope that I never find out.

**georlow** · 03-07-2005, 12:22 AM

Here's a picture of one which wasn't contained, as well as the bottle that ruptured. The firefighter filling the bottle wasn't killed, but was blown across the room and suffered multiple fractures. While the bones have healed, he did suffer permanent hearing loss.

**georlow** · 03-07-2005, 12:23 AM

Sorry about that...
Here's the bottle

**sexauer** · 03-07-2005, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by georlow
Here's a picture of one which wasn't contained, as well as the bottle that ruptured. The firefighter filling the bottle wasn't killed, but was blown across the room and suffered multiple fractures. While the bones have healed, he did suffer permanent hearing loss.

The question is, would a composite bottle fail the same way as the one in the picture? Or would it fragment into a million pieces? It looks like the guy filling the bottle in the pics is VERY lucky....I would have most certainly emptied my bowels.

**sdff1520** · 03-07-2005, 08:24 AM

We have been filling them completely unsecured, well almost, the bottles are held on the shelf with a fire extinguisher bracket during filling. This un-safe practice will soon end as we have ordered a new compressor, fully enclosed fill station and cascade. I'm just glad we've been lucky and nothing bad has happened. One never thinks that a cylinder is going to rupture if it's filled properly - at least thats what we thought until we had three bottles fail the last hydro test due to hairline cracks.

**neiowa** · 03-07-2005, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by sexauer

I dont think it will contain it as well because of the open top. I think that if the cylinder comes apart, depending on where the cylinder initialy ruptures (It could come out of the frag tube) it will spray shrapnel all over the place. Has anyone ever seen what one of those tanks do to the side of a truck when they come apart? I could be wrong, and it could contain it quite well, but with the pressures involved.....I hope that I never find out.

Actually that open top tube style would only spray shrapnel straight out of the tube. IE a shotgun. Now if you have the tube standing on the end or on it's side may be an issue. If you foolishily have your nugget over the top of the tube it may be a problem. Tube should, of course, be taller than your SCBA tanks.

The Frag-2 (or Frag-1) from Air Systems International have a top with latch. Will fully contain a tank failure. Small enough to transport to the field. Affordable so can actually buy one.
http://www.airsystems.cc/product_pag...tions_temp.htm

**captstanm1** · 03-07-2005, 01:52 PM

On our vehicle with a cascade system, we have a remote frag tank that hands off the compartment opening and is behind the compartment door which is between the fill station and filling firefighter.... Not sure just exactly how safe it really is.

**BFDLT32** · 03-07-2005, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by sexauer

The question is, would a composite bottle fail the same way as the one in the picture? Or would it fragment into a million pieces?

All composite bottles still have an aluminium tank under the composite wrap. With the newer carbon wrapped bottles the aluminium tanks have even a thinner walled tank. I guess the answer to your question is it will do both.

I was in close proximity to a open topped frag tank when one of the bottles sustained a burst disc failure. It completly emptied and dried the tank of water( I know, showing my age). I will have to say that this is not the only thing that was emptied in a rapid manner!!

**Bones42** · 03-08-2005, 09:09 AM

Just remember, along with the "parts" of the bottle that will be going somewhere, so will the compressed air in that cylinder. A true containment system will not only protect the user from the parts, but also from getting the air blast.

The frag tubes are better than nothing, but I'd opt for the better containment system, if possible.

After all, it's only someone's life and/or well being that we are talking about here.

**Jay911** · 04-04-2005, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by sexauer

The question is, would a composite bottle fail the same way as the one in the picture? Or would it fragment into a million pieces? It looks like the guy filling the bottle in the pics is VERY lucky....I would have most certainly emptied my bowels.

I can't find it any more, but I used to have a photo of a composite wrap bottle that was 'compromised' while mounted in the jumpseat of a fire truck. (I thought it was in the photos with the old "Detroit Fire Department: Out of Service" article here on FH, but that seems to have been removed from the site.) The tank basically came apart in the same way as the photo above, with the addition of 'unwrapping' into thousands of strands, plus doing some pretty heavy damage to the truck.

If I find the photo I'll try to remember to bring it here..

[EDIT: It appears I'm remembering a 'cylinder failure' from 1996 from the Humboldt, CA fire dept, but I can't locate an image.]

**BVFD1983** · 10-16-2005, 06:46 PM

Does anyone know where to buy a single bottle apparatus mounted frag tube? We are having a heck of a time with space issues and are wanting a 1 bottle at a time system.

**neiowa** · 10-17-2005, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by BVFD1983

Does anyone know where to buy a single bottle apparatus mounted frag tube? We are having a heck of a time with space issues and are wanting a 1 bottle at a time system.

See Frag-1 from Air Systems International have a top with latch. Will fully contain a tank failure. Small enough to transport to the field. Affordable so can actually buy one.

http://www.airsystems.cc/product_pag...l_stations.htm

**BVFD1983** · 10-17-2005, 04:10 PM

Not what we are looking for. I found what we are looking for though, and they are expensive...

**neiowa** · 10-18-2005, 11:31 AM

Yeah those rigs with the drawer/door that opens, guages, valves etc are obscenely expensive. Likely 1/2 of the price is to pay for the mfg liability insurance.

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